diff --git a/book/2002-10 b/book/2002-10 new file mode 100644 index 0000000..c59c91b --- /dev/null +++ b/book/2002-10 @@ -0,0 +1,1541 @@ +From daly@idsi.net Mon Oct 14 10:21:21 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18165w-0005sT-00 + for axiom-developer@mail.freesoftware.fsf.org; Mon, 14 Oct 2002 10:21:20 -0400 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18165o-0005Vx-00 + for axiom-developer@mail.freesoftware.fsf.org; Mon, 14 Oct 2002 10:21:16 -0400 +Received: from gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.84]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18165o-0005U8-00 + for axiom-developer@mail.freesoftware.fsf.org; Mon, 14 Oct 2002 10:21:12 -0400 +Received: from dialup-65.58.224.7.dial1.stamford1.level3.net ([65.58.224.7] helo=localhost.localdomain) + by gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) + id 18165l-0000AP-00 + for axiom-developer@mail.freesoftware.fsf.org; Mon, 14 Oct 2002 07:21:10 -0700 +Received: (from root@localhost) + by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g9EE11Z01875; + Mon, 14 Oct 2002 10:01:01 -0400 +Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 10:01:01 -0400 +Message-Id: <200210141401.g9EE11Z01875@localhost.localdomain> +From: root +To: axiom-developer@mail.freesoftware.fsf.org +Reply-to: daly@idsi.net +Subject: [Axiom-developer] [acn1@cam.ac.uk: Re: atan2] +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@mail.freesoftware.fsf.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@mail.freesoftware.fsf.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@mail.freesoftware.fsf.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +------- Start of forwarded message ------- +Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 07:55:56 +0100 (BST) +From: "Dr A.C. Norman" +X-Sender: acn1@virgo.cus.cam.ac.uk +To: root +Subject: Re: atan2 +In-Reply-To: <200210140203.g9E23tq11242@localhost.localdomain> +Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII +Sender: "Dr A.C. Norman" +X-RAVMilter-Version: 8.3.1(snapshot 20020109) (mail.idsi.net) +X-UIDL: EVp!!3ea"!X<'"!6pT!! + +On Sun, 13 Oct 2002, root wrote: + +> Arthur, +> +> I'm trying to build the cslbase directory files. +> The build is blowing up looking for the definition of +> functions like atan2, etc. I've searched the whole +> code base and cannot find the source. +> Where is the source for these math functions? +> +> Tim +> +Glad to be in touch - I had been intending to signal you but have now +become somewhat swamped under start of term etc. + +sin, cos, atan2 are in the standard C library, as in #include . +On SOME systems you need to link with "-lm" to pick them up, on many +others they are there without fuss. On my Red Hat 7.3 you can find the +actual declarations hidden in obscure mess in +/usr/include/bits/mathcalls.h that /usr/include/math.h itself #includes. +On some machines many of these get open-compiled when the floating point +unit has magic to do them. + +I have been finding the nested Makefiles hard to sort things out through. +I had hoped to do test builds on Windows which is the system I run at +home, and my next choice would have ben cygwin there. With the build +process as messy as it is at present windows is not an easy prospect. +Under cygwin when I do step 1, ie "make" in the development directory, +cygwin make coredumps on me. The linux setup says it is for glibc2.1 and +I have 2.2 on Red Hat 7.3... it has been much harder and uphill work to +get started than I had hoped! + + Arthur +------- End of forwarded message ------- + + + +From daly@idsi.net Mon Oct 14 11:02:44 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 1816k0-0007e1-00 + for axiom-developer@mail.freesoftware.fsf.org; Mon, 14 Oct 2002 11:02:44 -0400 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 1816jx-0007ab-00 + for axiom-developer@mail.freesoftware.fsf.org; Mon, 14 Oct 2002 11:02:44 -0400 +Received: from snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.62]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 1816jx-0007a7-00 + for axiom-developer@mail.freesoftware.fsf.org; Mon, 14 Oct 2002 11:02:41 -0400 +Received: from dialup-65.58.224.7.dial1.stamford1.level3.net ([65.58.224.7] helo=localhost.localdomain) + by snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) + id 1816ju-0003LA-00 + for axiom-developer@mail.freesoftware.fsf.org; Mon, 14 Oct 2002 08:02:39 -0700 +Received: (from root@localhost) + by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g9EEgTk01880; + Mon, 14 Oct 2002 10:42:29 -0400 +Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 10:42:29 -0400 +Message-Id: <200210141442.g9EEgTk01880@localhost.localdomain> +From: root +To: axiom-developer@mail.freesoftware.fsf.org +Reply-to: daly@idsi.net +Subject: [Axiom-developer] [acn1@cam.ac.uk: Re: atan2] +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@mail.freesoftware.fsf.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@mail.freesoftware.fsf.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@mail.freesoftware.fsf.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +------- Start of forwarded message ------- +Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 07:54:54 -0400 +From: root +To: acn1@cam.ac.uk +Subject: [axiom] atan2 +Reply-to: daly@idsi.net +Cc: daly@idsi.net +X-RAVMilter-Version: 8.3.1(snapshot 20020109) (mail.idsi.net) +X-UIDL: 5Y6"!l0^!!nBk!!;BG"! + +(god, how i love emacs. my system crashed hard while i was typing this +and not one word of my immortal prose was lost.) + +> Glad to be in touch - I had been intending to signal you but have now +> become somewhat swamped under start of term etc. + +Yes, I've just started a new job (at city college of new york) and +I've had a steep learning curve to climb there. I'm on the team that +created Magnus working with a bunch of experts in infinite group theory. +While I understood this stuff centuries ago it has wilted a bit with age +so I've been reading math books in my spare time. Magnus is a special +purpose computer algebra system that is dying of "code rot" (the authors +were grad students who have left the field; the experts in the group are +not programmers). I'm hoping to keep axiom from the same fate. + +> sin, cos, atan2 are in the standard C library, as in #include . +> On SOME systems you need to link with "-lm" to pick them up, on many +> others they are there without fuss. On my Red Hat 7.3 you can find the +> actual declarations hidden in obscure mess in +> /usr/include/bits/mathcalls.h that /usr/include/math.h itself #includes. +> On some machines many of these get open-compiled when the floating point +> unit has magic to do them. + +Ah, right. I could guess that but 11pm isn't conducive to insightful thinking. + +> I have been finding the nested Makefiles hard to sort things out through. +> I had hoped to do test builds on Windows which is the system I run at +> home, and my next choice would have ben cygwin there. With the build +> process as messy as it is at present windows is not an easy prospect. +> Under cygwin when I do step 1, ie "make" in the development directory, +> cygwin make coredumps on me. The linux setup says it is for glibc2.1 and +> I have 2.2 on Red Hat 7.3... it has been much harder and uphill work to +> get started than I had hoped! + +Re: Literate Programming + +Actually, I'm going to write up a literate document that explains the nested +makefile structure. It'll use noweb (http://www.eecs.harvard.edu/~nr/noweb) +to document the pile. noweb is a variant of Knuth's idea of literate +programming which I plan to use to document the whole of the system. + +The literate programming idea (assuming you haven't seen it) in its +simple form is that you write a document in tex that has a few special +tags of the form + <>= ...code...@ +which allows you to mix tex (or latex) and code. once you have the +document (I call it a pamphlet) you can run two programs against it: + noweave foo.pamphlet >foo.tex + notangle foo.pamphlet >foo.code +where noweave will generate the tex documentation of the code +and notangle will generate the actual running code. I've already +rewritten the DHMATRIX domain in this form. (DHMATRIX was derived +from Richard Paul's Ph.D. thesis and he was kind enough to let me +quote directly from that document). + +I'll send you the tex and output files until you have the ability +to handle pamphlets. + +Anyway, I plan to write up the recursive Makefile chain the same way. +(as well as the ccl files as I need to understand them deeply anyway). + +Re: Recursive Makefiles + +To get you started the idea of the recursive Makefile chain is that the +base Makefile will create "global" ${FOO} variables. These variables are +added to the temporary environment ${ENV} which prefixes each recursive +call to make. the next Makefile one layer down adds yet more variables +to the ${ENV} and calls its children. + +Each Makefile only knows how to make the files in its own subtree. +There is a recursive ${MAKE} call for each subtree in a directory. +Each parent Makefile has to + (1) set up environment variables, + (2) set up conditions for its children, + (3) build any files for which it is directly responsible + (4) invoke its children Makefiles (one per subdirectory), and + (5) clean up the mess. + +The "root" makefile is a special case. It sets up truly global variables +then calls a sibling makefile for the kind of system build you want. All +of the system specific environment variables are in the siblings. +The reason for this is that the makefile tree is intended to work on NFS +mounted directories. You NFS mount the target filesystem, type +"make whatever" and it handles the details automatically to build a +proper system for the architecture you need. It works rather well as +I was able to build systems ranging the spectrum of ibm/360, intel, +sparc, powerpc, etc in one Makefile tree. I know it seems painful +but once you understand the limited scope of each makefile it is +rather obvious where things belong (think of scope issues in programming). + +The directory structure is important also. There are 5 primary directories: +lsp, src, int, obj, and mnt. + +These are divided into 5 different categories for a reason. The basic idea +is to keep the "pure" source files separate from the machine generated +files. and keep the system-dependent files separate from the +system-independent files. The cross-product of these gives us 4 of the +5 possible directories: + + src = (system independent, human generated e.g. .boot files) + int = (system independent, machine generated e.g. .lsp files from .boot) + obj = (system dependent, machine generated e.g. .o files) + mnt = (system dependent, final image code e.g. .image files) + +src is code we write. It is always read-only to the machine and makefiles. + +int is code the machine writes (the lisp generated from the boot code) but +will only be needed when something changes. This considerably shortens the +build process (by about 10^3) but is basically a cache. Removing this +directory will have no other effect. Normally this is mounted read-only +once the first build occurs as there is no need to write over the cache +files. There is nothing cached that depends on any particular target +architecture so we can reuse all of this work no matter what kind of +system we are building. + +obj is code that depends on the target architecture, usually compiler +files like foo.o and such. This is "scratch space" for the makefiles +that allows compilers, documentation systems, and other machinery to +build up their working files. This directory can be completely removed +as the Makefiles will rebuild it if needed. It contains nothing +permanent and does not include anything that gets shipped (although +it might be built here and copied to the final image). + +mnt is the final system image for a particular target architecture. +You can copy this directory once the build completes. thus the final +executables are always under: ~/mnt/(target)/.... + +Using this directory structure you can have a master build system +which contains only the src directory. On the master build system +you NFS mount empty file systems under obj and mnt. Next you type +"make systemtype". The master Makefile sets up the globals, invokes +Makefile.systemtype to set up the system-special globals, and starts +the build. A side-effect of the build is to build all the subdirectory +structure in int, obj and the final mnt ship. Now you have cached work +in int you can keep, trash files in obj you can forget and a shipped +system in mnt you can run. NFS mount a new obj and a new mnt for a new +architecture and type "make nextsystem" and it all works again. + +Hope this helps. + +Also of interest is that I'm planning to build the system on two +different host services. There is a hidden service on tenkan.org +where I can make my mistakes in private and a world-avaiable service +on savannah (http://savannah.nongnu.org/projects/axiom). + +Tim + +------- End of forwarded message ------- + + + +From daly@idsi.net Mon Oct 14 17:26:29 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 181CjN-0007tV-00 + for axiom-developer@mail.freesoftware.fsf.org; Mon, 14 Oct 2002 17:26:29 -0400 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 181CjL-0007tK-00 + for axiom-developer@mail.freesoftware.fsf.org; Mon, 14 Oct 2002 17:26:28 -0400 +Received: from conure.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.54]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 181CjK-0007rp-00 + for axiom-developer@mail.freesoftware.fsf.org; Mon, 14 Oct 2002 17:26:26 -0400 +Received: from dialup-65.58.224.7.dial1.stamford1.level3.net ([65.58.224.7] helo=localhost.localdomain) + by conure.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) + id 181CjC-0005fs-00; Mon, 14 Oct 2002 14:26:18 -0700 +Received: (from root@localhost) + by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g9EL68e01980; + Mon, 14 Oct 2002 17:06:08 -0400 +Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 17:06:08 -0400 +Message-Id: <200210142106.g9EL68e01980@localhost.localdomain> +From: root +To: Arthur Norman , axiom-developer@mail.freesoftware.fsf.org +Reply-to: daly@idsi.net +Cc: daly@idsi.net +Subject: [Axiom-developer] [axiom] Makefile conventions +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@mail.freesoftware.fsf.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@mail.freesoftware.fsf.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@mail.freesoftware.fsf.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Arthur, + +I've set up a mailing list for developers at: +axiom-developer@mail.freesoftware.fsf.org + +You can subscribe to it online at: +http://mail.freesoftware.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/axiom-developer + +You can see the archives at: +http://mail.freesoftware.fsf.org/pipermail/axiom-developer + +More conventions related to Makefiles: + +The top level Makefile defines +SPAD= the full path to the root of the world. This is where the + highest level Makefile lives. +SYS= the name of the shipped system type (e.g. linux) +LISP= the name of the lisp we are building on +SRC= ${SPAD}/src +INT= ${SPAD}/int +OBJ= ${SPAD}/obj +MNT= ${SPAD}/mnt/${SYS} +LSP= ${SPAD}/lsp/${LISP} + +so if we are building a system in /home/axiom for linux using ccl these +would look like: + +SPAD= /home/axiom +SYS= linux +LISP= ccl +SRC= /home/axiom/src +INT= /home/axiom/int +OBJ= /home/axiom/obj +MNT= /home/axiom/mnt/linux +LSP= /home/axiom/lsp/ccl + + +We need to keep track of where we are and where we are putting files. +In order to solve this problem we want to name 3 "places" we want to be. +The first is where we have the input (IN), +the second is where we have space to work (MID) and +the third is where we want the result (OUT). + +Each Makefile (one per src directory) defines 3 local variables (if needed): + +IN= the full path to the src directory where the Makefile lives +MID= the full path to the "working directory" + this could be in the int subtree if the file that gets + created is system independent but machine generated or + this could be in the obj subtree if the file that gets + created is system dependent but machine generated. +OUT= the full path to the target directory + this might be the mnt/${SYS}/bin directory, for example, + if the result of the make is a shipped executable file. + +for example, +IN=${SRC}/boot +MID=${INT}/boot +OUT=${OBJ}/boot + +so, in general, a "standard stanza set" will look like: + +${OUT}/boothdr.o: ${MID}/boothdr.lisp + @ echo making ${OUT}/boothdr.o from ${MID}/boothdr.lisp + @ ( cd ${MID} ; \ + echo '(progn (compile-file "${MID}/boothdr.lisp" :output-file "${OUT}/boothdr.${O}") (${BYE}))' | ${LISPSYS} ) + +${MID}/boothdr.lisp: ${IN}/boothdr.lisp + @ echo making ${MID}/boothdr.lisp from ${IN}/boothdr.lisp + @ cp ${IN}/boothdr.lisp ${MID}/boothdr.lisp + +Note that the there are two stanzas related to the boothdr.lisp file. +The idea is that the second stanza will go from our input file to +our work directory (IN->MID) and the first stanza will go from our +work directory to where we want the result (MID->OUT). This two step +process, while tedious to write, allows us to cache work in the MID +subdirectory. In general, after the first system build, the second +stanzas will never be executed again unless the source files change. +This can result in a considerable savings (for example, depsys images +are cached after being built). For more detail: + +The second stanza takes + ${IN}/boothdr.lisp -> (by copy) -> ${MID}/boothdr.lisp + + (a) since this is a "system independent" file it creates a copy in the + int subdirectory (MID=/spad/int/boot). + (b) since there is no other processing required it just copies. + (c) the MID file is now in the cache (since this only required a + copy in this case it hardly matters but overall it saves a lot) + +The first stanza takes + ${MID}/boothdr.lisp -> (compile-file piped into lisp) -> ${OUT}/boothdr.o + + (a) since this is a "system dependent" file it creates the compiled + output in the obj subdirectory. + (b) since this file is not shipped with the system there is nothing + created in the mnt subdirectory. + (c) note the ( cd ${MID} ; do-the-compile-command ) style. + this makes sure that we are not trying to work in the src directory. + (in this case the compiler does not generate tmp files so it doesn't + matter where we work but the style is followed anyway) + + +By convention there are two stanzas per file. We don't depend +on default rules for make stanzas so each subdirectory's Makefile +is very explicit about the steps necessary to make a file properly. + +By convention the first line in a stanza echos what the stanza does. +All other operations in the stanza are quiet (have a preceeding '@') +This is useful for quickly finding where a build failed. + +Tim + + + +From daly@idsi.net Mon Oct 14 21:21:02 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 181GOL-00056Z-00 + for axiom-developer@mail.freesoftware.fsf.org; Mon, 14 Oct 2002 21:21:01 -0400 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 181GOJ-00055B-00 + for axiom-developer@mail.freesoftware.fsf.org; Mon, 14 Oct 2002 21:21:01 -0400 +Received: from albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.120] helo=albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 181GOJ-000553-00 + for axiom-developer@mail.freesoftware.fsf.org; Mon, 14 Oct 2002 21:20:59 -0400 +Received: from dialup-65.58.224.7.dial1.stamford1.level3.net ([65.58.224.7] helo=localhost.localdomain) + by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) + id 181GOG-0002OY-00; Mon, 14 Oct 2002 18:20:56 -0700 +Received: (from root@localhost) + by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g9F10fv02105; + Mon, 14 Oct 2002 21:00:41 -0400 +Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 21:00:41 -0400 +Message-Id: <200210150100.g9F10fv02105@localhost.localdomain> +From: root +To: Norman Ramsey , + axiom-developer@mail.freesoftware.fsf.org +Cc: daly@idsi.net +Reply-to: daly@idsi.net +Subject: [Axiom-developer] [axiom] Axiom and noweb +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@mail.freesoftware.fsf.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@mail.freesoftware.fsf.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@mail.freesoftware.fsf.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Norman, + +I'm building a computer algebra system called Axiom which has been +released as free software (http://savannah.nongnu.org/projects/axiom). +I'm working on rewriting the Axiom source code to deeply depend on +literate programming and, in particular, on noweb. + +In addition, I'm working on defining a document format that requires +user examples, test cases, help documentation and cross references to +other documents that will be loaded when this document is used. I can +create most of these sections by using <> conventions +and post-processors. As I add requirements I'm not sure that will continue +in the future. + +You state in your license that I'm allowed to create derivative works +provided I retain the copyright notice but the result may not be called +noweb without your written consent. + +I'm not particularly eager to change the name since I'd like to give +credit and make reference to your work. As I'm fulfilling the license +requirements at this time I don't see a problem with keeping the name +"noweb". However, I'd like you to be aware of its use. + +Tim +daly@idsi.net + + + + +From daly@idsi.net Tue Oct 15 17:27:55 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 181ZEJ-00039M-00 + for axiom-developer@mail.freesoftware.fsf.org; Tue, 15 Oct 2002 17:27:55 -0400 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 181ZEH-000398-00 + for axiom-developer@mail.freesoftware.fsf.org; Tue, 15 Oct 2002 17:27:54 -0400 +Received: from flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.232]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 181ZEG-000390-00 + for axiom-developer@mail.freesoftware.fsf.org; Tue, 15 Oct 2002 17:27:52 -0400 +Received: from dialup-65.56.25.20.dial1.stamford1.level3.net ([65.56.25.20] helo=localhost.localdomain) + by flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) + id 181ZE6-0004ZH-00; Tue, 15 Oct 2002 14:27:43 -0700 +Received: (from root@localhost) + by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g9FL7QU03313; + Tue, 15 Oct 2002 17:07:26 -0400 +Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 17:07:26 -0400 +Message-Id: <200210152107.g9FL7QU03313@localhost.localdomain> +From: root +To: nr@eecs.harvard.edu, axiom-developer@mail.freesoftware.fsf.org +CC: daly@idsi.net +In-reply-to: <20021015175242.5A30754C438@mail.eecs.harvard.edu> (message from + Norman Ramsey on Tue, 15 Oct 2002 13:52:42 -0400) +Reply-to: daly@idsi.net +References: <200210150100.g9F10fv02105@localhost.localdomain> <20021015175242.5A30754C438@mail.eecs.harvard.edu> +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: [axiom] Axiom and noweb +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@mail.freesoftware.fsf.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@mail.freesoftware.fsf.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@mail.freesoftware.fsf.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +>Tim, + +>While I'm sympathetic to your efforts, at present I want to be sure +>that the name `noweb' is attached to my work and not to anyone else's. +>In particular, when I come up for tenure, it would be unfortunate for +>me if there were to be any confusion. Maybe if you tell me more of +>the details we can work something out. + +>Norman + +A perfectly reasonable request. + +Details: + +Axiom carries almost all of its knowledge of algebra in a high level +language called "spad". Currently these files suffer from a few +problems that can be addressed by literate programming. + +First, there is the classic separation of mathematical theory from +its implementation. People write papers that give the theory and +develop the code to reduce the theory to practice. The paper gets +published, the code gets integrated. Unfortunately, they never again +meet. In a computer algebra system (unlike, say, an editor or other +general purpose program) you can't really tell people "go read the +code" because most of what you need to know to understand the code +exists in a research library. + +Second, there is the problem that various parts of a large system +like Axiom can get badly out of sync. Test cases get lost, help +files become outdated, etc. + +Third, it is my opinion that computer algebra systems are reaching a +natural limit of complexity based on the way they are constructed. +Because of the theory separation they are very hard to maintain and +even harder to extend. Axiom has been around for 30 years. How will +we get thru the next 30 years? + +So, I'm experimenting with literate programming as a way to attacking +the above problems. The experiment involves several directions. + +To attack the first problem I'm planning on rewriting the algebra +files as literate programs. I'm going back to the original source +material (thesis work and papers), finding the authors and writing +literate programs that start by explaining the theory and work toward +its reduction to practice. (Eventually I'd like to start a journal +that requires literate algebra programs as submission material). +I have a few hundred pages so far but there are many years of work +ahead. + +To attack the second problem I'm planning to require a certain style +of document with marked sections and chunks for test cases, user docs, +regression tests, etc. This file format (which you call .nw and I +call .pamphlet) will have bibliographic cross references to other +pamphlets that contain required code. Since code is currently +dynamically loaded I'm planning to build the system so you can +"drag and drop" a pamphlet onto the system and it will self-expand +(including expanding cross references) and update the system. +This is where I expect to have to add filters and possibly modify +noweb. + +To attack the third problem I'm planning on developing the concept +of "booklets" which are groups of pamphlets. One could put together +booklets that explain, say, all of the matrix types in Axiom (think +of a horizontal slice thru the types). Or one could put together +booklets that explain, say, integration in depth (think of a +vertical slice thru the types). It appears that noweb may support +this already (thru -delay) so I don't anticipate any changes for +this idea. + +Tim + + + + + +From camm@enhanced.com Wed Oct 23 21:00:12 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 184WM7-0002ss-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 23 Oct 2002 21:00:11 -0400 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 184WM4-0002ke-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 23 Oct 2002 21:00:10 -0400 +Received: from h-66-134-96-17.phlapafg.covad.net ([66.134.96.17] helo=intech19.enhanced.com) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 184WM4-0002jA-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 23 Oct 2002 21:00:08 -0400 +Received: from camm by intech19.enhanced.com with local (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) + id 184WM3-0000dJ-00; Wed, 23 Oct 2002 21:00:07 -0400 +From: Camm Maguire +To: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +User-Agent: WEMI/1.13.7 (Shimada) FLIM/1.13.2 (Kasanui) Emacs/20.7 (i386-debian-linux-gnu) MULE/4.0 (HANANOEN) +MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by WEMI 1.13.7 - "Shimada") +Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII +Message-Id: +Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 21:00:07 -0400 +Subject: [Axiom-developer] source +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Greetings! I just saw this list recently setup and looked over the +messages -- it appears that some are working with the source now, but +I cannot find it anywhere. Is there any status update? + +Take care, + +-- +Camm Maguire camm@enhanced.com +========================================================================== +"The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens." -- Baha'u'llah + + + +From daly@idsi.net Wed Oct 23 21:51:35 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 184X9q-0000wx-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 23 Oct 2002 21:51:34 -0400 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 184X9n-0000kM-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 23 Oct 2002 21:51:33 -0400 +Received: from hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.22]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 184X9m-0000ip-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 23 Oct 2002 21:51:30 -0400 +Received: from dialup-63.215.226.136.dial1.stamford1.level3.net ([63.215.226.136] helo=localhost.localdomain) + by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) + id 184X95-0000K6-00; Wed, 23 Oct 2002 18:50:47 -0700 +Received: (from root@localhost) + by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g9O1URB21502; + Wed, 23 Oct 2002 21:30:27 -0400 +Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 21:30:27 -0400 +Message-Id: <200210240130.g9O1URB21502@localhost.localdomain> +From: root +To: camm@enhanced.com, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] source +Reply-to: daly@idsi.net +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Camm, + +I haven't posted the source yet. I'm trying to build a working +version. The source code won't be particularly useful if you can't +run it. Axiom is based on a new lisp (Codemist Common Lisp) since I +last used it and I'm learning how to build it. The key issue is that +the underlying Lisp requires some built-in support. That and some +personal commitments are taking time. + +I have been looking at the GCL-MPI enhancements as one of the listed +goals is having parallel programming support. I'll get back to you on +this as soon as I resurface. + +Tim + + + +From daly@idsi.net Fri Oct 25 18:51:25 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 185DIb-0001Ak-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 18:51:25 -0400 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 185DIZ-0001AC-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 18:51:24 -0400 +Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.122]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 185DIY-00015S-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 18:51:23 -0400 +Received: from dialup-65.59.74.232.dial1.stamford1.level3.net ([65.59.74.232] helo=localhost.localdomain) + by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) + id 185DIO-0006TN-00; Fri, 25 Oct 2002 15:51:13 -0700 +Received: (from root@localhost) + by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g9PMUoN24230; + Fri, 25 Oct 2002 18:30:50 -0400 +Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 18:30:50 -0400 +Message-Id: <200210252230.g9PMUoN24230@localhost.localdomain> +From: root +To: morelli@cs.utah.edu, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +CC: daly@idsi.net +Reply-to: daly@idsi.net +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: Axiom Development +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +> Robert Morelli wrote: +> I'm potentially interested in working on Axiom. +> Are you coordinating the project? + +Robert, + +Yes, I'm the person coordinating the project. It is a rather large +project so I expect people will want to focus on particular areas. +There are several different ways that people will be able contribute +depending on their skills. The internal architecture is almost all +Common Lisp. The algebra is written in a high-level language known +as spad or aldor. New algebra needs to be written. The first release +of the system is going to be on linux but porting work needs to be +done to other platforms. The documentation needs expanding. The +user interface needs lots of work. If you visit the root page +http://savannah.nongnu.org/projects/axiom you'll see the overall +project. If you visit the homepage at: +http://www.nongnu.org/axiom you can see a list of open topics and +directions for work. The source code is not yet posted as I'm +in the process of getting the initial build to work. +What interests you about Axiom? + +Tim + + + + +From daly@idsi.net Sat Oct 26 11:33:54 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 185Swj-00010k-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Sat, 26 Oct 2002 11:33:53 -0400 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 185Swd-0000jW-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Sat, 26 Oct 2002 11:33:50 -0400 +Received: from hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.22]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 185Swd-0000j7-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Sat, 26 Oct 2002 11:33:47 -0400 +Received: from dialup-65.59.74.26.dial1.stamford1.level3.net ([65.59.74.26] helo=localhost.localdomain) + by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) + id 185SwU-000635-00; Sat, 26 Oct 2002 08:33:38 -0700 +Received: (from root@localhost) + by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g9QFDB725213; + Sat, 26 Oct 2002 11:13:11 -0400 +Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 11:13:11 -0400 +Message-Id: <200210261513.g9QFDB725213@localhost.localdomain> +From: root +To: toffin@math.unicaen.fr, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +CC: daly@idsi.net +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Axiom Development +Reply-to: daly@idsi.net +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +>Philippe Toffin wrote: +> I am philippe Toffin; I have been working with Axiom for many years, +> mainely because I like very much this high generality level in wich one +> can work; there are many things which are bad, as the low level of errors +> detected explainations by the compiler, or the uses of different names of +> the same functions by the compiler or the interpreter etc... +> I do not really know if I can help you, but it would be more on the math +> algorithm side rather than writing things for specified plattforms. +> Actually, I have the Axiom 2.3 for linux version, but it is not properly +> or not completely installated. A friend of mine is going to do it, soon. +> Anyway, I think that the basic ideas at the beginning of Axiom were good +> ideas, and I still think that it could become an excellent computer +> algebra sofware. +> Please excuse my very inperfect english. +> best regards +> philippe + +Philippe, + +At the moment the new version of Axiom is still being built. +There are challenges to setting up the system so it can be built +automatically by anyone and the system is built on a lisp (CCL) +that is different from the original (AKCL) so the initial step +has been progressing slowly. I have, however, succeeded in building +the lisp image and integrating it into the build makefile tree cleanly. +I'm much more familiar with the rest of the process so it should go +faster. The first version will be on Linux but I'll be looking for +people who have other kinds of systems and are interested in the +drudge-work of porting. + +If you're interested in the algebra but don't have an Axiom system +available the key contribution you can make is to choose a particular +algebra file or two and attempt to document them. The algebra suffers +from the fact that the research papers and reference material necessary +to understand the algorithms are hidden in research libraries. The +plan is to use "noweb" (http://www.eecs.harvard.edu/~nr/noweb) and +a literate programming style to document each of the algebra files. +I can post a first example if you want to see what this would involve. +noweb allows you to mix tex and source code in the same file. It is +basically tex with a few extra tags. You can then write a "pamphlet" +that describes the algebra in detail, including the actual code. +You run: + notangle foo.pamphlet >foo.spad + noweave foo.pamphlet >foo.tex +and you get the original algebra code in foo.spad and the description +of the algebra in foo.tex. + +Or you can take a broader view and construct a bibliography list for each of +the algebra files. We will need to do background research to find the +primary materials for the algebra code. Some of it is from books and some +of it is from papers. Axiom is primarily a research platform for +computational mathematics and leading edge research is mostly found in +papers (although by this time it will have shown up in textbooks). +We need to find the original authors of the code and ask them for +references. + +If you get Axiom running there are several things you can do. One is +to start sending bug reports. Be sure to include the line that caused +the failure, the actual output and the expected output. We need to +find the flaws and fix them. One of the key features of open source +is supposed to be the speed with which things get fixed. Hopefully +Axiom will keep that tradition alive. + +A second task is to develop example/test cases. There is a directory +(src/input) that has example files and was used for regression +testing. It is hardly changed since the system was shipped. We need +much more coverage of the algebra. Indeed, we need to structure the +tests so we can decide what is and is not covered, at least in a +minimal way. Many people develop input files to check their work +and throw them away. These are valuable in a more general sense and +we need to encourage collecting, categorizing and documenting them. +There are portions of the algebra that would be a lot easier to use +if there were examples. You could look at Hypertex and construct pages +that help the end user. Hypertex pages are fairly simple to write. + +A third task would be to develop new algebra. If you have expertise +in some area that the algebra doesn't cover and understand the algorithms +it would be useful to propose new code. I expect that the criteria for +accepting new algebra will be challenging because we have to be careful +that the new code is correct, well documented, well tested, well +reviewed (like technical papers, I hope to see a list of reviewers) and +that it plays well with the rest of the system. There are huge areas of +mathematics that are never mentioned in Axiom so this is a fertile field +of work. + +There are more tasks to think about and I'm open to suggestions for new +ones. Check out the main page (http://savannah.nongnu.org/projects/axiom) +or the homepage (http://www.nongnu.org/axiom) for further ideas. The main +thing is to figure out how you can best contribute. + +Tim + +P.S. Your english is fine. + + + +From camm@enhanced.com Mon Oct 28 10:11:42 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 186BYL-0000xa-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Mon, 28 Oct 2002 10:11:41 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 186BYG-0000jS-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Mon, 28 Oct 2002 10:11:41 -0500 +Received: from h-66-134-96-17.phlapafg.covad.net ([66.134.96.17] helo=intech19.enhanced.com) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 186BYF-0000eg-00; Mon, 28 Oct 2002 10:11:35 -0500 +Received: from camm by intech19.enhanced.com with local (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) + id 186BSg-00085h-00; Mon, 28 Oct 2002 10:05:50 -0500 +To: daly@idsi.net +Cc: axiom-developer@nongnu.org, gcl-devel@gnu.org +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] source +References: <200210240130.g9O1URB21502@localhost.localdomain> +From: Camm Maguire +Date: 28 Oct 2002 10:05:50 -0500 +In-Reply-To: root's message of "Wed, 23 Oct 2002 21:30:27 -0400" +Message-ID: <54smyqk3ht.fsf@intech19.enhanced.com> +Lines: 43 +X-Mailer: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.7 +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Greetings! + +root writes: + +> Camm, +> +> I haven't posted the source yet. I'm trying to build a working +> version. The source code won't be particularly useful if you can't +> run it. Axiom is based on a new lisp (Codemist Common Lisp) since I +> last used it and I'm learning how to build it. The key issue is that +> the underlying Lisp requires some built-in support. That and some +> personal commitments are taking time. +> + +No problem, I understand completely. Not that I have much time +either, but if you get overloaded, you might try posting what you have +(with ample disclaimers) and solicit the few free moments of other +interested parties to get some traction. Much to my pleasant surprise, +the gcl developer list has grown to 11, most of whom contribute +regularly. + +> I have been looking at the GCL-MPI enhancements as one of the listed +> goals is having parallel programming support. I'll get back to you on +> this as soon as I resurface. +> + +Great! We would like to include the mpi extensions in the +distribution. We need to figure out a policy, though, for these +optional ffi interfaces, as they are beginning to proliferate. + +> Tim +> + +Thanks for your work with axiom! + +Take care, + +> + +-- +Camm Maguire camm@enhanced.com +========================================================================== +"The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens." -- Baha'u'llah + + + +From daly@idsi.net Mon Oct 28 17:46:16 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 186IeG-0004yg-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Mon, 28 Oct 2002 17:46:16 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 186IeC-0004t9-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Mon, 28 Oct 2002 17:46:14 -0500 +Received: from hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.22]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 186IeC-0004oK-00; Mon, 28 Oct 2002 17:46:12 -0500 +Received: from dialup-65.59.76.238.dial1.stamford1.level3.net ([65.59.76.238] helo=localhost.localdomain) + by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) + id 186Ida-000737-00; Mon, 28 Oct 2002 14:45:35 -0800 +Received: (from root@localhost) + by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g9SMP9G02415; + Mon, 28 Oct 2002 17:25:09 -0500 +Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 17:25:09 -0500 +Message-Id: <200210282225.g9SMP9G02415@localhost.localdomain> +From: root +To: camm@enhanced.com, axiom-developer@nongnu.org, gcl-devel@gnu.org +CC: daly@idsi.net +Reply-to: daly@idsi.net +Subject: [Axiom-developer] [Axiom] source +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Camm, + +>No problem, I understand completely. Not that I have much time +>either, but if you get overloaded, you might try posting what you have +>(with ample disclaimers) and solicit the few free moments of other +>interested parties to get some traction. Much to my pleasant surprise, +>the gcl developer list has grown to 11, most of whom contribute +>regularly. + +Well, I'm working at redefining the way the system is built and +I'm not 100% certain of all of the details. I've nearly +finished the CCL lisp system, which will be the first release +platform, and I'll see what kind of reaction that generates. +I should be posting the first draft of the CCL code shortly. +Essentially the goal is transitioning the system build to work +from literate programs. The first draft requires a lot of writing +as there is no other documentation. I'm finding all kinds of interesting +advantages and I've only just begun using it. I've also built +some system tools that, as I got smarter about things, it turned +out I didn't need. Simplify, simplify... + +I recommend that you take a look at this literate programming +stuff. It is a bit tedious to set up but the system should be +much more maintainable in the long term. (Besides, it would +be REAL convenient if you make GCL literate so I don't have to :-) ) + +Tim + + + + +From daly@idsi.net Mon Oct 28 18:48:56 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 186Jcu-0006go-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Mon, 28 Oct 2002 18:48:56 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 186Jcr-0006fI-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Mon, 28 Oct 2002 18:48:55 -0500 +Received: from scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.49]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 186Jcq-0006cU-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Mon, 28 Oct 2002 18:48:53 -0500 +Received: from dialup-65.59.76.238.dial1.stamford1.level3.net ([65.59.76.238] helo=localhost.localdomain) + by scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) + id 186Jcg-00024w-00; Mon, 28 Oct 2002 15:48:42 -0800 +Received: (from root@localhost) + by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g9SNSGk02459; + Mon, 28 Oct 2002 18:28:16 -0500 +Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 18:28:16 -0500 +Message-Id: <200210282328.g9SNSGk02459@localhost.localdomain> +From: root +To: morelli@cs.utah.edu, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +CC: daly@idsi.net +Reply-to: daly@idsi.net +Subject: [Axiom-developer] [axiom] Axiom Development +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +>In a nutshell, I'm interested in many aspects of the AXIOM project but +>my immediate problem is funding. I noticed you mention a number of +>potential sources of funding on your TODO page. I'm wondering if you +>have any advice on how I could proceed. + +So far there have been no positive replies about funding Axiom. +All of the funding involved comes from my own pocket except for +the server services from the free software foundation. One of +these days I should send them a donation. It would be nice to +be able to work on Axiom full time but that won't happen again +in my lifetime. + +>My background is in pure math. I received my PhD under Raoul Bott at +>Harvard. My mathematical research centers on the interplay between +>polyhedral geometry and algebraic geometry. However, for about the +>past year I've been working in the CS department at the University of +>Utah. Unfortunately, I recently learned that my support here will end +>in 3 months, so I am looking at various possibilities for employment +>or funding after that point. + +I know a tiny bit about algebraic topology but nothing about +algebraic geometry. If you can recommend a textbook I'll look +at it and suggest a possible connection to Axiom. Or you could +check with Jon McCammond at UC Santa Barbara. He's been doing +work in Geometric Group Theory. (jon.mccammond@math.ucsb.edu). +Also see www.math.ucsb.edu/~jon.mccammond/geogrouptheory/people.html + +>In my more recent involvement in computer science, I've focused on +>computer language design and formal methods. (By the way, I'm okay +>with Common Lisp, but I prefer languages like Haskell and OCaml for +>internals. I'm also good with Java, which is well suited to some +>kinds of cross platform user interface work.) + +Heathen! :-) Sorry, that one got away. Common Lisp is a useful +implementation language because the source text and the data +structures use the same syntax, a feature we use quite often. +There is nothing sacred about it, however, as the Aldor compiler +is implemented in C (Aldor is Axiom's standalone compiler). + +>One of my ideas is to work on computer algebra. I am drawn to this +>for several different, partly incompatible, reasons, having to do with +>my mathematical research, my interest in computer programming +>languages, and my experiences teaching mathematics. + +>First, there's the open source issue, about which I'm sure you need no +>convincing. For commercial systems like Maple, and especially +>Mathematica, cost is exorbitant, open documentation is lacking, +>precise semantics are lacking, source code is not freely available, +>etc. This is a big negative for both teaching and research. It's +>long been one of my dreams to have a high quality open source symbolic +>mathematics system. + +Actually, a large portion of the computational math community has the +same issue. Almost everyone I've spoken to wants open source so they +can do various things (not the least of which is to fix broken code). + +>My second reason has to do with my experiences using symbolic +>computation in my research. I've used general purpose programming +>languages for this, general purpose CA systems, and domain specific +>systems. I've had mixed success with all three breeds. My chief +>complaint has nothing to do with efficiency or fast algorithms. I'm +>more interested in reliability, usability, and especially +>expressiveness. General programming languages don't have the +>facilities, systems like Mathematica are inadequate in abstract +>domains like algebraic geometry, and domain specific systems lack +>flexibility and constantly reinvent the wheel in ad hoc and limiting +>ways. I find the difficulty of expressing mathematics in programming +>languages a fascinating problem. + +According to Daly's Hasty Generalization Theorem (TM) there are 3 +kinds of computer algebra system. + +Type 1 is the library approach. The insight begins with the fact +that their favorite language has a type system and there is a nice +mapping from types to abstract algebra. A large library gets built +which no-one can use except the developers because it is complex. +An interpreter is usually placed over the library to make it more +useable but the library is the key. + +Type 2 is the engineering approach. Do whatever is necessary to make +it work. The key symptom is that you can subtract two types, say +matrices, and get a 0 (integer). Note the loss of type information +because a 0 is a 0 is a 0, right? These systems are easy to use at +first but they have trouble scaling because the coercions that make +it work also turn out to be the source of bugs in more complex situations. + +Type 3 is the theory approach. The symptom is that a language is +defined that is close to the mathematics you want to express. This +makes the algorithms clearer and, therefore, easier to get right. +The problem with these systems is that they have very steep learning +curves making them hard to learn initially. However, they scale +better because they have good theoretical models and you can strongly +argue for the correctness of the results. + +Axiom is a type 3 system. It is harder to learn but, once learned, +it becomes easier to write correct algorithms. + +>My third reason has to do with my more recent involvement in computer +>science where I've gained some knowledge of programming language +>design. I'm particularly interested in advanced type systems, module +>systems, and other devices that balance expressiveness with structure +>and safety. From this point of view, systems like Mathematica are +>rather undisciplined. Simply carrying state of the art language +>design to the CA world seems a worthy undertaking, but this is just a +>first step. An even bigger ambition is to reverse the process -- to +>explore the deep and rich domain of mathematics as a vehicle for +>research in programming language design itself. + +The Aldor (external compiler)/Spad (internal compiler) language +IS state of the art. Very few languages have dependent types, +parameterized types and types as first-class objects. Stephen +Watt and his team have done some very impressive work in this +area (www.aldor.org). Also check out references to Manuel Bronstein +(Sumit) and Nicolas Mannhart (Piit). Having been directly involved +in defining and implementing 4 commercial programming languages +I'm kinda burned out in this area. + +>These three reasons cover a huge amount of ground, a good deal of +>which overlaps with the goals of the AXIOM project. Like I said, +>there are also some incompatibilities; experimental research in design +>is somewhat at odds with the goal of producing a polished system +>targeted at teachers, students, and ordinary users. + +Half the teachers in France want to use Axiom for teaching in a +much more polished form so there is a lot of support there. Send +mail to the OSCAS@ACM.ORG mailing list and see what support you +find (they may even have a job opening). Gilbert Baumslag at +CCNY wants to converge the Magnus user interface with Axiom. +Magnus has a "zero learning curve" philosophy and a completely +different direction than any other computer algebra system. +(see www.grouptheory.org for Magnus) + +>So where in this expanse of possibilities would it make sense for me +>to work? That has everything to do with funding. Like I said, my +>current funding runs out in 3 months. I can bear a lapse for a few +>more months after that, but I can't work indefinitely without support. + +Unfortunately I'm recently re-hired myself (I was one of the chosen +17000 Worldcom layoffs). The people page listed above could give you +a list of places to apply, I guess. + +>Keep in mind that getting funded in computer science is tricky for me +>because I have no formal background in that field. I have to lean on +>my math background and the credentials of my collaborators. Here are +>some rough ideas for specific kinds of project proposals I have in +>mind: +> +>1. General user interface, usability, accessibility, development for +>AXIOM. The tools and libraries needed to make top quality end-to-end +>usability and packaging feasible are just now coming together in the +>open source world. This would be pitched as a means of growing the +>AXIOM community and improving AXIOM as a tool for education and +>research. + +I would recommend taking a look at TeXmacs as a possible place to +start. Joris van der Hoeven is the author and has exactly the same +goals (vdhoeven@texmacs.org). Andrey Grozin is another contact +(grozin@texmacs.org). + +>2. AXIOM in education. I've taught most of the undergraduate courses +>in math at the U. of Utah, where we've generally used Maple. I'd +>propose working with the math department on integrating AXIOM into some +>of these courses, and using the experience to improve AXIOM as a +>teaching tool. + +Memory fails me for the best contact but check with Paul Zimmermann +(Paul.Zimmermann@loria.fr). He can put you in touch with people +who share your interest in this. + +>3. Integrating AXIOM with theorem proving. I'm right now working +>with one of the principal developers of the HOL theorem proving system +>(who happens to be in the Utah CS department). I don't speak for him, +>but he and I have discussed integrating HOL with computer algebra and +>I think he'd be interested if we could get funded to do the work. + +The best contacts here are either at UTexas (ACL2, contact +Michael Bogomolny ) or Cornell (MetaPRL, +contact Sergey Artimov) + +>4. Programming language research in the context of symbolic algebra. +>I've discussed this idea with one of the computer languages people in +>the CS department. He's an expert in component and module systems and +>the principal developer of PLT Scheme and the Dr. Scheme development +>environment. (By the way, Dr. Scheme's design is very flexible and it +>can be easily modified to provide a development environment for a +>computer algebra system.) Again, I don't speak for him, but he seems +>enthusiastic about the idea. + +I'm unfamiliar with PLT Scheme or Dr. Scheme, though I've used scheme +in the past. Axiom requires some low-level mods to most lisps to +support things like sockets and dynamic loading of native code. +Plus we plan to push Axiom into parallel programming so there would +have to be some support for MPI. I have set up a beowulf so I'm +interested in reflecting this parallelism into the type hierarchy +and the data structures. + +Hope this helps. + +Tim + + + + + + +From daly@idsi.net Tue Oct 29 20:14:30 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 186hJa-0005RM-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 29 Oct 2002 20:06:34 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 186hJU-0005Lh-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 29 Oct 2002 20:06:31 -0500 +Received: from gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.84]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 186hJT-0005JG-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 29 Oct 2002 20:06:27 -0500 +Received: from dialup-63.215.231.91.dial1.stamford1.level3.net ([63.215.231.91] helo=localhost.localdomain) + by gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) + id 186hJL-0004tW-00; Tue, 29 Oct 2002 17:06:19 -0800 +Received: (from root@localhost) + by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g9U0jqY04502; + Tue, 29 Oct 2002 19:45:52 -0500 +Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 19:45:52 -0500 +Message-Id: <200210300045.g9U0jqY04502@localhost.localdomain> +From: root +To: Norman Ramsey , axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Reply-to: daly@idsi.net +Cc: daly@idsi.net +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Catch 22 +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Norman, + +I've got a catch 22 going on and perhaps you can suggest a better solution. + +Lets suppose I have a literate program P that documents a Java program. +P contains several classes. In order to construct P from the P.nw file +I need a makefile to automate the extraction. The makefile contains +lines like: + +extract: + notangle -Rfoo.java P.nw >foo.java + notangle -Rbar.java P.nw >bar.java + +etc... + +Being a fan of literate programming the Makefile is also literate +so to extract it we need to say + + notangle Makefile.nw >Makefile + +Now if I want to send you a literate program you get 2 files, +P.nw and Makefile.nw. I'm trying to figure out a way to reduce +this to one file with the idea that I can embed the Makefile +into P. Thus, I'd like to incant: + + notangle -withMakefile P.nw + make + +so that the -withMakefile would look for the <> tag +and extract it. + +This almost works now except that the steps are more tedious +and I've taken to keeping the files separate. Is this a reasonable +modification? Would others find it useful? I feel it would be +elegant to just send one file rather than two. + +Tim + + + +From daly@idsi.net Tue Oct 29 23:35:12 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 186kZU-00057L-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 29 Oct 2002 23:35:12 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 186kZQ-00055A-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 29 Oct 2002 23:35:10 -0500 +Received: from falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.74]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 186kZP-000556-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 29 Oct 2002 23:35:08 -0500 +Received: from dialup-63.215.231.91.dial1.stamford1.level3.net ([63.215.231.91] helo=localhost.localdomain) + by falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) + id 186kZM-0000ck-00; Tue, 29 Oct 2002 20:35:04 -0800 +Received: (from root@localhost) + by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g9U4ESM04571; + Tue, 29 Oct 2002 23:14:28 -0500 +Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 23:14:28 -0500 +Message-Id: <200210300414.g9U4ESM04571@localhost.localdomain> +From: root +To: nr@eecs.harvard.edu, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +CC: daly@idsi.net +Reply-to: daly@idsi.net +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: Catch 22 +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +I played with your suggestion of using bundle and distributing +both files. It seems no different than just using tar. However +a different idea seems to work out to a good solution. If I use +the <<*>> tag to surround the makefile code: + +/section{The Makefile} +<<*>>= +all: + notangle -Rfoo.java P.nw >foo.java + notangle -Rbar.java P.nw >bar.java + javac *.java +@ + +and the tags: + +/section{foo.java} +<>= +... +@ +/section{bar.java} +<>= +... +@ + +then I can send just the P.nw file. The rules for unpacking it +and making the program become: + + notangle P.nw >Makefile + make + +This seems like an elegant solution as I only need to send one +file, the Makefile is up to date, and there are no modifications +needed to noweb. + +Tim + + + +From daly@idsi.net Thu Oct 31 23:44:15 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 187TfL-0008SA-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 31 Oct 2002 23:44:15 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 187TfH-0008R3-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 31 Oct 2002 23:44:13 -0500 +Received: from gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.84]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 187TfE-0008OA-00; Thu, 31 Oct 2002 23:44:08 -0500 +Received: from dialup-63.215.237.110.dial1.stamford1.level3.net ([63.215.237.110] helo=localhost.localdomain) + by gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) + id 187TfC-0006R8-00; Thu, 31 Oct 2002 20:44:06 -0800 +Received: (from root@localhost) + by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.6) id gA14NXU07468; + Thu, 31 Oct 2002 23:23:33 -0500 +Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 23:23:33 -0500 +Message-Id: <200211010423.gA14NXU07468@localhost.localdomain> +From: root +To: bill.page1@sympatico.ca, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +CC: axiom-mail@nongnu.org +In-reply-to: + <20021101040409.UEUV23632.tomts11-srv.bellnexxia.net@[209.226.175.20]> + (message from Bill Page on Thu, 31 Oct 2002 23:04:09 -0500) +Reply-to: daly@idsi.net +References: <20021101040409.UEUV23632.tomts11-srv.bellnexxia.net@[209.226.175.20]> +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: [Axiom-mail] Status +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Actually, I have no estimate. The key to the game is to get the lisp +running as this is the only part of the system that is new to me. +Axiom used to be hosted on AKCL, now GCL, and Camm and I have discussed +rehosting it there. I expect it to run on both as they each have +advantages. In any case, though, the game is to get it to run anywhere +and I'm working on that at the moment. There really isn't any point +to posting the sources as the build process is very complex and +not documented (as yet. it will be). I've built the first version +of the lisp and now am working on building the "image" file. +Unfortunately there isn't any obvious way to share this task. + +The new system build uses noweb (search for noweb Ramsey in google) +which is a tool to support literate programming. If Axiom has any +chance to survive it has got to be documented so anyone who is +willing to put out the effort can learn how to build, modify and +maintain it. I suggest you look at noweb and I can send you an +example file or two to bring you up to speed on how I'm using it. + +Once the lisp build works locally I can upload the lisp portion +of the system, you can try to build it, and we can work on +correcting the problems with the build. + +What is your background? Programmer? Mathematician? What area of +Axiom strikes your interest? + +Tim + + + diff --git a/book/2002-10.txt b/book/2002-10.txt new file mode 100644 index 0000000..d9cb69d --- /dev/null +++ b/book/2002-10.txt @@ -0,0 +1,1023 @@ + +\start +Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 10:01:01 -0400 +From: root +To: axiom-developer@mail.freesoftware.fsf.org +Subject: [Axiom-developer] [acn1@cam.ac.uk: Re: atan2] + +------- Start of forwarded message ------- +Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 07:55:56 +0100 (BST) +From: "Dr A.C. Norman" +X-Sender: acn1@virgo.cus.cam.ac.uk +To: root +Subject: Re: atan2 +In-Reply-To: <200210140203.g9E23tq11242@localhost.localdomain> +Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII +Sender: "Dr A.C. Norman" +X-RAVMilter-Version: 8.3.1(snapshot 20020109) (mail.idsi.net) +X-UIDL: EVp!!3ea"!X<'"!6pT!! + +On Sun, 13 Oct 2002, root wrote: + +> Arthur, +> +> I'm trying to build the cslbase directory files. +> The build is blowing up looking for the definition of +> functions like atan2, etc. I've searched the whole +> code base and cannot find the source. +> Where is the source for these math functions? +> +> Tim +> +Glad to be in touch - I had been intending to signal you but have now +become somewhat swamped under start of term etc. + +sin, cos, atan2 are in the standard C library, as in #include . +On SOME systems you need to link with "-lm" to pick them up, on many +others they are there without fuss. On my Red Hat 7.3 you can find the +actual declarations hidden in obscure mess in +/usr/include/bits/mathcalls.h that /usr/include/math.h itself #includes. +On some machines many of these get open-compiled when the floating point +unit has magic to do them. + +I have been finding the nested Makefiles hard to sort things out through. +I had hoped to do test builds on Windows which is the system I run at +home, and my next choice would have ben cygwin there. With the build +process as messy as it is at present windows is not an easy prospect. +Under cygwin when I do step 1, ie "make" in the development directory, +cygwin make coredumps on me. The linux setup says it is for glibc2.1 and +I have 2.2 on Red Hat 7.3... it has been much harder and uphill work to +get started than I had hoped! + + Arthur +------- End of forwarded message ------- + + + +\start +Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 10:42:29 -0400 +From: root +To: axiom-developer@mail.freesoftware.fsf.org +Subject: [Axiom-developer] [acn1@cam.ac.uk: Re: atan2] + +------- Start of forwarded message ------- +Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 07:54:54 -0400 +From: root +To: acn1@cam.ac.uk +Subject: [axiom] atan2 +Reply-to: daly@idsi.net +Cc: daly@idsi.net +X-RAVMilter-Version: 8.3.1(snapshot 20020109) (mail.idsi.net) +X-UIDL: 5Y6"!l0^!!nBk!!;BG"! + +(god, how i love emacs. my system crashed hard while i was typing this +and not one word of my immortal prose was lost.) + +> Glad to be in touch - I had been intending to signal you but have now +> become somewhat swamped under start of term etc. + +Yes, I've just started a new job (at city college of new york) and +I've had a steep learning curve to climb there. I'm on the team that +created Magnus working with a bunch of experts in infinite group theory. +While I understood this stuff centuries ago it has wilted a bit with age +so I've been reading math books in my spare time. Magnus is a special +purpose computer algebra system that is dying of "code rot" (the authors +were grad students who have left the field; the experts in the group are +not programmers). I'm hoping to keep axiom from the same fate. + +> sin, cos, atan2 are in the standard C library, as in #include . +> On SOME systems you need to link with "-lm" to pick them up, on many +> others they are there without fuss. On my Red Hat 7.3 you can find the +> actual declarations hidden in obscure mess in +> /usr/include/bits/mathcalls.h that /usr/include/math.h itself #includes. +> On some machines many of these get open-compiled when the floating point +> unit has magic to do them. + +Ah, right. I could guess that but 11pm isn't conducive to insightful thinking. + +> I have been finding the nested Makefiles hard to sort things out through. +> I had hoped to do test builds on Windows which is the system I run at +> home, and my next choice would have ben cygwin there. With the build +> process as messy as it is at present windows is not an easy prospect. +> Under cygwin when I do step 1, ie "make" in the development directory, +> cygwin make coredumps on me. The linux setup says it is for glibc2.1 and +> I have 2.2 on Red Hat 7.3... it has been much harder and uphill work to +> get started than I had hoped! + +Re: Literate Programming + +Actually, I'm going to write up a literate document that explains the nested +makefile structure. It'll use noweb (http://www.eecs.harvard.edu/~nr/noweb) +to document the pile. noweb is a variant of Knuth's idea of literate +programming which I plan to use to document the whole of the system. + +The literate programming idea (assuming you haven't seen it) in its +simple form is that you write a document in tex that has a few special +tags of the form + <>= ...code...@ +which allows you to mix tex (or latex) and code. once you have the +document (I call it a pamphlet) you can run two programs against it: + noweave foo.pamphlet >foo.tex + notangle foo.pamphlet >foo.code +where noweave will generate the tex documentation of the code +and notangle will generate the actual running code. I've already +rewritten the DHMATRIX domain in this form. (DHMATRIX was derived +from Richard Paul's Ph.D. thesis and he was kind enough to let me +quote directly from that document). + +I'll send you the tex and output files until you have the ability +to handle pamphlets. + +Anyway, I plan to write up the recursive Makefile chain the same way. +(as well as the ccl files as I need to understand them deeply anyway). + +Re: Recursive Makefiles + +To get you started the idea of the recursive Makefile chain is that the +base Makefile will create "global" ${FOO} variables. These variables are +added to the temporary environment ${ENV} which prefixes each recursive +call to make. the next Makefile one layer down adds yet more variables +to the ${ENV} and calls its children. + +Each Makefile only knows how to make the files in its own subtree. +There is a recursive ${MAKE} call for each subtree in a directory. +Each parent Makefile has to + (1) set up environment variables, + (2) set up conditions for its children, + (3) build any files for which it is directly responsible + (4) invoke its children Makefiles (one per subdirectory), and + (5) clean up the mess. + +The "root" makefile is a special case. It sets up truly global variables +then calls a sibling makefile for the kind of system build you want. All +of the system specific environment variables are in the siblings. +The reason for this is that the makefile tree is intended to work on NFS +mounted directories. You NFS mount the target filesystem, type +"make whatever" and it handles the details automatically to build a +proper system for the architecture you need. It works rather well as +I was able to build systems ranging the spectrum of ibm/360, intel, +sparc, powerpc, etc in one Makefile tree. I know it seems painful +but once you understand the limited scope of each makefile it is +rather obvious where things belong (think of scope issues in programming). + +The directory structure is important also. There are 5 primary directories: +lsp, src, int, obj, and mnt. + +These are divided into 5 different categories for a reason. The basic idea +is to keep the "pure" source files separate from the machine generated +files. and keep the system-dependent files separate from the +system-independent files. The cross-product of these gives us 4 of the +5 possible directories: + + src = (system independent, human generated e.g. .boot files) + int = (system independent, machine generated e.g. .lsp files from .boot) + obj = (system dependent, machine generated e.g. .o files) + mnt = (system dependent, final image code e.g. .image files) + +src is code we write. It is always read-only to the machine and makefiles. + +int is code the machine writes (the lisp generated from the boot code) but +will only be needed when something changes. This considerably shortens the +build process (by about 10^3) but is basically a cache. Removing this +directory will have no other effect. Normally this is mounted read-only +once the first build occurs as there is no need to write over the cache +files. There is nothing cached that depends on any particular target +architecture so we can reuse all of this work no matter what kind of +system we are building. + +obj is code that depends on the target architecture, usually compiler +files like foo.o and such. This is "scratch space" for the makefiles +that allows compilers, documentation systems, and other machinery to +build up their working files. This directory can be completely removed +as the Makefiles will rebuild it if needed. It contains nothing +permanent and does not include anything that gets shipped (although +it might be built here and copied to the final image). + +mnt is the final system image for a particular target architecture. +You can copy this directory once the build completes. thus the final +executables are always under: ~/mnt/(target)/.... + +Using this directory structure you can have a master build system +which contains only the src directory. On the master build system +you NFS mount empty file systems under obj and mnt. Next you type +"make systemtype". The master Makefile sets up the globals, invokes +Makefile.systemtype to set up the system-special globals, and starts +the build. A side-effect of the build is to build all the subdirectory +structure in int, obj and the final mnt ship. Now you have cached work +in int you can keep, trash files in obj you can forget and a shipped +system in mnt you can run. NFS mount a new obj and a new mnt for a new +architecture and type "make nextsystem" and it all works again. + +Hope this helps. + +Also of interest is that I'm planning to build the system on two +different host services. There is a hidden service on tenkan.org +where I can make my mistakes in private and a world-avaiable service +on savannah (http://savannah.nongnu.org/projects/axiom). + +Tim + +------- End of forwarded message ------- + +\start +Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 17:06:08 -0400 +From: root +To: Arthur Norman , axiom-developer@mail.freesoftware.fsf.org +Cc: daly@idsi.net + +Arthur, + +I've set up a mailing list for developers at: +axiom-developer@mail.freesoftware.fsf.org + +You can subscribe to it online at: +http://mail.freesoftware.fsf.org/mailman/listinfo/axiom-developer + +You can see the archives at: +http://mail.freesoftware.fsf.org/pipermail/axiom-developer + +More conventions related to Makefiles: + +The top level Makefile defines +SPAD= the full path to the root of the world. This is where the + highest level Makefile lives. +SYS= the name of the shipped system type (e.g. linux) +LISP= the name of the lisp we are building on +SRC= ${SPAD}/src +INT= ${SPAD}/int +OBJ= ${SPAD}/obj +MNT= ${SPAD}/mnt/${SYS} +LSP= ${SPAD}/lsp/${LISP} + +so if we are building a system in /home/axiom for linux using ccl these +would look like: + +SPAD= /home/axiom +SYS= linux +LISP= ccl +SRC= /home/axiom/src +INT= /home/axiom/int +OBJ= /home/axiom/obj +MNT= /home/axiom/mnt/linux +LSP= /home/axiom/lsp/ccl + + +We need to keep track of where we are and where we are putting files. +In order to solve this problem we want to name 3 "places" we want to be. +The first is where we have the input (IN), +the second is where we have space to work (MID) and +the third is where we want the result (OUT). + +Each Makefile (one per src directory) defines 3 local variables (if needed): + +IN= the full path to the src directory where the Makefile lives +MID= the full path to the "working directory" + this could be in the int subtree if the file that gets + created is system independent but machine generated or + this could be in the obj subtree if the file that gets + created is system dependent but machine generated. +OUT= the full path to the target directory + this might be the mnt/${SYS}/bin directory, for example, + if the result of the make is a shipped executable file. + +for example, +IN=${SRC}/boot +MID=${INT}/boot +OUT=${OBJ}/boot + +so, in general, a "standard stanza set" will look like: + +${OUT}/boothdr.o: ${MID}/boothdr.lisp + @ echo making ${OUT}/boothdr.o from ${MID}/boothdr.lisp + @ ( cd ${MID} ; \ + echo '(progn (compile-file "${MID}/boothdr.lisp" :output-file "${OUT}/boothdr.${O}") (${BYE}))' | ${LISPSYS} ) + +${MID}/boothdr.lisp: ${IN}/boothdr.lisp + @ echo making ${MID}/boothdr.lisp from ${IN}/boothdr.lisp + @ cp ${IN}/boothdr.lisp ${MID}/boothdr.lisp + +Note that the there are two stanzas related to the boothdr.lisp file. +The idea is that the second stanza will go from our input file to +our work directory (IN->MID) and the first stanza will go from our +work directory to where we want the result (MID->OUT). This two step +process, while tedious to write, allows us to cache work in the MID +subdirectory. In general, after the first system build, the second +stanzas will never be executed again unless the source files change. +This can result in a considerable savings (for example, depsys images +are cached after being built). For more detail: + +The second stanza takes + ${IN}/boothdr.lisp -> (by copy) -> ${MID}/boothdr.lisp + + (a) since this is a "system independent" file it creates a copy in the + int subdirectory (MID=/spad/int/boot). + (b) since there is no other processing required it just copies. + (c) the MID file is now in the cache (since this only required a + copy in this case it hardly matters but overall it saves a lot) + +The first stanza takes + ${MID}/boothdr.lisp -> (compile-file piped into lisp) -> ${OUT}/boothdr.o + + (a) since this is a "system dependent" file it creates the compiled + output in the obj subdirectory. + (b) since this file is not shipped with the system there is nothing + created in the mnt subdirectory. + (c) note the ( cd ${MID} ; do-the-compile-command ) style. + this makes sure that we are not trying to work in the src directory. + (in this case the compiler does not generate tmp files so it doesn't + matter where we work but the style is followed anyway) + + +By convention there are two stanzas per file. We don't depend +on default rules for make stanzas so each subdirectory's Makefile +is very explicit about the steps necessary to make a file properly. + +By convention the first line in a stanza echos what the stanza does. +All other operations in the stanza are quiet (have a preceeding '@') +This is useful for quickly finding where a build failed. + +Tim + + + +\start +Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 21:00:41 -0400 +From: root +To: Norman Ramsey , + axiom-developer@mail.freesoftware.fsf.org +Cc: daly@idsi.net +Subject: [Axiom-developer] [axiom] Axiom and noweb + +Norman, + +I'm building a computer algebra system called Axiom which has been +released as free software (http://savannah.nongnu.org/projects/axiom). +I'm working on rewriting the Axiom source code to deeply depend on +literate programming and, in particular, on noweb. + +In addition, I'm working on defining a document format that requires +user examples, test cases, help documentation and cross references to +other documents that will be loaded when this document is used. I can +create most of these sections by using <> conventions +and post-processors. As I add requirements I'm not sure that will continue +in the future. + +You state in your license that I'm allowed to create derivative works +provided I retain the copyright notice but the result may not be called +noweb without your written consent. + +I'm not particularly eager to change the name since I'd like to give +credit and make reference to your work. As I'm fulfilling the license +requirements at this time I don't see a problem with keeping the name +"noweb". However, I'd like you to be aware of its use. + +Tim +daly@idsi.net + +\start +Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 17:07:26 -0400 +From: root +To: nr@eecs.harvard.edu, axiom-developer@mail.freesoftware.fsf.org +CC: daly@idsi.net +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: [axiom] Axiom and noweb + +>Tim, + +>While I'm sympathetic to your efforts, at present I want to be sure +>that the name `noweb' is attached to my work and not to anyone else's. +>In particular, when I come up for tenure, it would be unfortunate for +>me if there were to be any confusion. Maybe if you tell me more of +>the details we can work something out. + +>Norman + +A perfectly reasonable request. + +Details: + +Axiom carries almost all of its knowledge of algebra in a high level +language called "spad". Currently these files suffer from a few +problems that can be addressed by literate programming. + +First, there is the classic separation of mathematical theory from +its implementation. People write papers that give the theory and +develop the code to reduce the theory to practice. The paper gets +published, the code gets integrated. Unfortunately, they never again +meet. In a computer algebra system (unlike, say, an editor or other +general purpose program) you can't really tell people "go read the +code" because most of what you need to know to understand the code +exists in a research library. + +Second, there is the problem that various parts of a large system +like Axiom can get badly out of sync. Test cases get lost, help +files become outdated, etc. + +Third, it is my opinion that computer algebra systems are reaching a +natural limit of complexity based on the way they are constructed. +Because of the theory separation they are very hard to maintain and +even harder to extend. Axiom has been around for 30 years. How will +we get thru the next 30 years? + +So, I'm experimenting with literate programming as a way to attacking +the above problems. The experiment involves several directions. + +To attack the first problem I'm planning on rewriting the algebra +files as literate programs. I'm going back to the original source +material (thesis work and papers), finding the authors and writing +literate programs that start by explaining the theory and work toward +its reduction to practice. (Eventually I'd like to start a journal +that requires literate algebra programs as submission material). +I have a few hundred pages so far but there are many years of work +ahead. + +To attack the second problem I'm planning to require a certain style +of document with marked sections and chunks for test cases, user docs, +regression tests, etc. This file format (which you call .nw and I +call .pamphlet) will have bibliographic cross references to other +pamphlets that contain required code. Since code is currently +dynamically loaded I'm planning to build the system so you can +"drag and drop" a pamphlet onto the system and it will self-expand +(including expanding cross references) and update the system. +This is where I expect to have to add filters and possibly modify +noweb. + +To attack the third problem I'm planning on developing the concept +of "booklets" which are groups of pamphlets. One could put together +booklets that explain, say, all of the matrix types in Axiom (think +of a horizontal slice thru the types). Or one could put together +booklets that explain, say, integration in depth (think of a +vertical slice thru the types). It appears that noweb may support +this already (thru -delay) so I don't anticipate any changes for +this idea. + +Tim + +\start +Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 21:00:07 -0400 +From: Camm Maguire +To: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Subject: [Axiom-developer] source + +Greetings! I just saw this list recently setup and looked over the +messages -- it appears that some are working with the source now, but +I cannot find it anywhere. Is there any status update? + +\start +Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 21:30:27 -0400 +From: root +To: camm@enhanced.com, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] source + +Camm, + +I haven't posted the source yet. I'm trying to build a working +version. The source code won't be particularly useful if you can't +run it. Axiom is based on a new lisp (Codemist Common Lisp) since I +last used it and I'm learning how to build it. The key issue is that +the underlying Lisp requires some built-in support. That and some +personal commitments are taking time. + +I have been looking at the GCL-MPI enhancements as one of the listed +goals is having parallel programming support. I'll get back to you on +this as soon as I resurface. + +Tim + +\start +Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 18:30:50 -0400 +From: root +To: morelli@cs.utah.edu, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +CC: daly@idsi.net +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: Axiom Development + +> Robert Morelli wrote: +> I'm potentially interested in working on Axiom. +> Are you coordinating the project? + +Robert, + +Yes, I'm the person coordinating the project. It is a rather large +project so I expect people will want to focus on particular areas. +There are several different ways that people will be able contribute +depending on their skills. The internal architecture is almost all +Common Lisp. The algebra is written in a high-level language known +as spad or aldor. New algebra needs to be written. The first release +of the system is going to be on linux but porting work needs to be +done to other platforms. The documentation needs expanding. The +user interface needs lots of work. If you visit the root page +http://savannah.nongnu.org/projects/axiom you'll see the overall +project. If you visit the homepage at: +http://www.nongnu.org/axiom you can see a list of open topics and +directions for work. The source code is not yet posted as I'm +in the process of getting the initial build to work. +What interests you about Axiom? + +Tim + +\start +Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 11:13:11 -0400 +From: root +To: toffin@math.unicaen.fr, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +CC: daly@idsi.net +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Axiom Development + +>Philippe Toffin wrote: +> I am philippe Toffin; I have been working with Axiom for many years, +> mainely because I like very much this high generality level in wich one +> can work; there are many things which are bad, as the low level of errors +> detected explainations by the compiler, or the uses of different names of +> the same functions by the compiler or the interpreter etc... +> I do not really know if I can help you, but it would be more on the math +> algorithm side rather than writing things for specified plattforms. +> Actually, I have the Axiom 2.3 for linux version, but it is not properly +> or not completely installated. A friend of mine is going to do it, soon. +> Anyway, I think that the basic ideas at the beginning of Axiom were good +> ideas, and I still think that it could become an excellent computer +> algebra sofware. +> Please excuse my very inperfect english. +> best regards +> philippe + +Philippe, + +At the moment the new version of Axiom is still being built. +There are challenges to setting up the system so it can be built +automatically by anyone and the system is built on a lisp (CCL) +that is different from the original (AKCL) so the initial step +has been progressing slowly. I have, however, succeeded in building +the lisp image and integrating it into the build makefile tree cleanly. +I'm much more familiar with the rest of the process so it should go +faster. The first version will be on Linux but I'll be looking for +people who have other kinds of systems and are interested in the +drudge-work of porting. + +If you're interested in the algebra but don't have an Axiom system +available the key contribution you can make is to choose a particular +algebra file or two and attempt to document them. The algebra suffers +from the fact that the research papers and reference material necessary +to understand the algorithms are hidden in research libraries. The +plan is to use "noweb" (http://www.eecs.harvard.edu/~nr/noweb) and +a literate programming style to document each of the algebra files. +I can post a first example if you want to see what this would involve. +noweb allows you to mix tex and source code in the same file. It is +basically tex with a few extra tags. You can then write a "pamphlet" +that describes the algebra in detail, including the actual code. +You run: + notangle foo.pamphlet >foo.spad + noweave foo.pamphlet >foo.tex +and you get the original algebra code in foo.spad and the description +of the algebra in foo.tex. + +Or you can take a broader view and construct a bibliography list for each of +the algebra files. We will need to do background research to find the +primary materials for the algebra code. Some of it is from books and some +of it is from papers. Axiom is primarily a research platform for +computational mathematics and leading edge research is mostly found in +papers (although by this time it will have shown up in textbooks). +We need to find the original authors of the code and ask them for +references. + +If you get Axiom running there are several things you can do. One is +to start sending bug reports. Be sure to include the line that caused +the failure, the actual output and the expected output. We need to +find the flaws and fix them. One of the key features of open source +is supposed to be the speed with which things get fixed. Hopefully +Axiom will keep that tradition alive. + +A second task is to develop example/test cases. There is a directory +(src/input) that has example files and was used for regression +testing. It is hardly changed since the system was shipped. We need +much more coverage of the algebra. Indeed, we need to structure the +tests so we can decide what is and is not covered, at least in a +minimal way. Many people develop input files to check their work +and throw them away. These are valuable in a more general sense and +we need to encourage collecting, categorizing and documenting them. +There are portions of the algebra that would be a lot easier to use +if there were examples. You could look at Hypertex and construct pages +that help the end user. Hypertex pages are fairly simple to write. + +A third task would be to develop new algebra. If you have expertise +in some area that the algebra doesn't cover and understand the algorithms +it would be useful to propose new code. I expect that the criteria for +accepting new algebra will be challenging because we have to be careful +that the new code is correct, well documented, well tested, well +reviewed (like technical papers, I hope to see a list of reviewers) and +that it plays well with the rest of the system. There are huge areas of +mathematics that are never mentioned in Axiom so this is a fertile field +of work. + +There are more tasks to think about and I'm open to suggestions for new +ones. Check out the main page (http://savannah.nongnu.org/projects/axiom) +or the homepage (http://www.nongnu.org/axiom) for further ideas. The main +thing is to figure out how you can best contribute. + +Tim + +P.S. Your english is fine. + +\start +Date: 28 Oct 2002 10:05:50 -0500 +From: Camm Maguire +To: daly@idsi.net +Cc: axiom-developer@nongnu.org, gcl-devel@gnu.org +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] source + +Greetings! + +root writes: + +> Camm, +> +> I haven't posted the source yet. I'm trying to build a working +> version. The source code won't be particularly useful if you can't +> run it. Axiom is based on a new lisp (Codemist Common Lisp) since I +> last used it and I'm learning how to build it. The key issue is that +> the underlying Lisp requires some built-in support. That and some +> personal commitments are taking time. +> + +No problem, I understand completely. Not that I have much time +either, but if you get overloaded, you might try posting what you have +(with ample disclaimers) and solicit the few free moments of other +interested parties to get some traction. Much to my pleasant surprise, +the gcl developer list has grown to 11, most of whom contribute +regularly. + +> I have been looking at the GCL-MPI enhancements as one of the listed +> goals is having parallel programming support. I'll get back to you on +> this as soon as I resurface. +> + +Great! We would like to include the mpi extensions in the +distribution. We need to figure out a policy, though, for these +optional ffi interfaces, as they are beginning to proliferate. + +> Tim +> + +Thanks for your work with axiom! + +\start +Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 17:25:09 -0500 +From: root +To: camm@enhanced.com, axiom-developer@nongnu.org, gcl-devel@gnu.org +CC: daly@idsi.net +Subject: [Axiom-developer] [Axiom] source + +Camm, + +>No problem, I understand completely. Not that I have much time +>either, but if you get overloaded, you might try posting what you have +>(with ample disclaimers) and solicit the few free moments of other +>interested parties to get some traction. Much to my pleasant surprise, +>the gcl developer list has grown to 11, most of whom contribute +>regularly. + +Well, I'm working at redefining the way the system is built and +I'm not 100% certain of all of the details. I've nearly +finished the CCL lisp system, which will be the first release +platform, and I'll see what kind of reaction that generates. +I should be posting the first draft of the CCL code shortly. +Essentially the goal is transitioning the system build to work +from literate programs. The first draft requires a lot of writing +as there is no other documentation. I'm finding all kinds of interesting +advantages and I've only just begun using it. I've also built +some system tools that, as I got smarter about things, it turned +out I didn't need. Simplify, simplify... + +I recommend that you take a look at this literate programming +stuff. It is a bit tedious to set up but the system should be +much more maintainable in the long term. (Besides, it would +be REAL convenient if you make GCL literate so I don't have to :-) ) + +Tim + +\start +Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 18:28:16 -0500 +From: root +To: morelli@cs.utah.edu, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +CC: daly@idsi.net +Subject: [Axiom-developer] [axiom] Axiom Development + +>In a nutshell, I'm interested in many aspects of the AXIOM project but +>my immediate problem is funding. I noticed you mention a number of +>potential sources of funding on your TODO page. I'm wondering if you +>have any advice on how I could proceed. + +So far there have been no positive replies about funding Axiom. +All of the funding involved comes from my own pocket except for +the server services from the free software foundation. One of +these days I should send them a donation. It would be nice to +be able to work on Axiom full time but that won't happen again +in my lifetime. + +>My background is in pure math. I received my PhD under Raoul Bott at +>Harvard. My mathematical research centers on the interplay between +>polyhedral geometry and algebraic geometry. However, for about the +>past year I've been working in the CS department at the University of +>Utah. Unfortunately, I recently learned that my support here will end +>in 3 months, so I am looking at various possibilities for employment +>or funding after that point. + +I know a tiny bit about algebraic topology but nothing about +algebraic geometry. If you can recommend a textbook I'll look +at it and suggest a possible connection to Axiom. Or you could +check with Jon McCammond at UC Santa Barbara. He's been doing +work in Geometric Group Theory. (jon.mccammond@math.ucsb.edu). +Also see www.math.ucsb.edu/~jon.mccammond/geogrouptheory/people.html + +>In my more recent involvement in computer science, I've focused on +>computer language design and formal methods. (By the way, I'm okay +>with Common Lisp, but I prefer languages like Haskell and OCaml for +>internals. I'm also good with Java, which is well suited to some +>kinds of cross platform user interface work.) + +Heathen! :-) Sorry, that one got away. Common Lisp is a useful +implementation language because the source text and the data +structures use the same syntax, a feature we use quite often. +There is nothing sacred about it, however, as the Aldor compiler +is implemented in C (Aldor is Axiom's standalone compiler). + +>One of my ideas is to work on computer algebra. I am drawn to this +>for several different, partly incompatible, reasons, having to do with +>my mathematical research, my interest in computer programming +>languages, and my experiences teaching mathematics. + +>First, there's the open source issue, about which I'm sure you need no +>convincing. For commercial systems like Maple, and especially +>Mathematica, cost is exorbitant, open documentation is lacking, +>precise semantics are lacking, source code is not freely available, +>etc. This is a big negative for both teaching and research. It's +>long been one of my dreams to have a high quality open source symbolic +>mathematics system. + +Actually, a large portion of the computational math community has the +same issue. Almost everyone I've spoken to wants open source so they +can do various things (not the least of which is to fix broken code). + +>My second reason has to do with my experiences using symbolic +>computation in my research. I've used general purpose programming +>languages for this, general purpose CA systems, and domain specific +>systems. I've had mixed success with all three breeds. My chief +>complaint has nothing to do with efficiency or fast algorithms. I'm +>more interested in reliability, usability, and especially +>expressiveness. General programming languages don't have the +>facilities, systems like Mathematica are inadequate in abstract +>domains like algebraic geometry, and domain specific systems lack +>flexibility and constantly reinvent the wheel in ad hoc and limiting +>ways. I find the difficulty of expressing mathematics in programming +>languages a fascinating problem. + +According to Daly's Hasty Generalization Theorem (TM) there are 3 +kinds of computer algebra system. + +Type 1 is the library approach. The insight begins with the fact +that their favorite language has a type system and there is a nice +mapping from types to abstract algebra. A large library gets built +which no-one can use except the developers because it is complex. +An interpreter is usually placed over the library to make it more +useable but the library is the key. + +Type 2 is the engineering approach. Do whatever is necessary to make +it work. The key symptom is that you can subtract two types, say +matrices, and get a 0 (integer). Note the loss of type information +because a 0 is a 0 is a 0, right? These systems are easy to use at +first but they have trouble scaling because the coercions that make +it work also turn out to be the source of bugs in more complex situations. + +Type 3 is the theory approach. The symptom is that a language is +defined that is close to the mathematics you want to express. This +makes the algorithms clearer and, therefore, easier to get right. +The problem with these systems is that they have very steep learning +curves making them hard to learn initially. However, they scale +better because they have good theoretical models and you can strongly +argue for the correctness of the results. + +Axiom is a type 3 system. It is harder to learn but, once learned, +it becomes easier to write correct algorithms. + +>My third reason has to do with my more recent involvement in computer +>science where I've gained some knowledge of programming language +>design. I'm particularly interested in advanced type systems, module +>systems, and other devices that balance expressiveness with structure +>and safety. From this point of view, systems like Mathematica are +>rather undisciplined. Simply carrying state of the art language +>design to the CA world seems a worthy undertaking, but this is just a +>first step. An even bigger ambition is to reverse the process -- to +>explore the deep and rich domain of mathematics as a vehicle for +>research in programming language design itself. + +The Aldor (external compiler)/Spad (internal compiler) language +IS state of the art. Very few languages have dependent types, +parameterized types and types as first-class objects. Stephen +Watt and his team have done some very impressive work in this +area (www.aldor.org). Also check out references to Manuel Bronstein +(Sumit) and Nicolas Mannhart (Piit). Having been directly involved +in defining and implementing 4 commercial programming languages +I'm kinda burned out in this area. + +>These three reasons cover a huge amount of ground, a good deal of +>which overlaps with the goals of the AXIOM project. Like I said, +>there are also some incompatibilities; experimental research in design +>is somewhat at odds with the goal of producing a polished system +>targeted at teachers, students, and ordinary users. + +Half the teachers in France want to use Axiom for teaching in a +much more polished form so there is a lot of support there. Send +mail to the OSCAS@ACM.ORG mailing list and see what support you +find (they may even have a job opening). Gilbert Baumslag at +CCNY wants to converge the Magnus user interface with Axiom. +Magnus has a "zero learning curve" philosophy and a completely +different direction than any other computer algebra system. +(see www.grouptheory.org for Magnus) + +>So where in this expanse of possibilities would it make sense for me +>to work? That has everything to do with funding. Like I said, my +>current funding runs out in 3 months. I can bear a lapse for a few +>more months after that, but I can't work indefinitely without support. + +Unfortunately I'm recently re-hired myself (I was one of the chosen +17000 Worldcom layoffs). The people page listed above could give you +a list of places to apply, I guess. + +>Keep in mind that getting funded in computer science is tricky for me +>because I have no formal background in that field. I have to lean on +>my math background and the credentials of my collaborators. Here are +>some rough ideas for specific kinds of project proposals I have in +>mind: +> +>1. General user interface, usability, accessibility, development for +>AXIOM. The tools and libraries needed to make top quality end-to-end +>usability and packaging feasible are just now coming together in the +>open source world. This would be pitched as a means of growing the +>AXIOM community and improving AXIOM as a tool for education and +>research. + +I would recommend taking a look at TeXmacs as a possible place to +start. Joris van der Hoeven is the author and has exactly the same +goals (vdhoeven@texmacs.org). Andrey Grozin is another contact +(grozin@texmacs.org). + +>2. AXIOM in education. I've taught most of the undergraduate courses +>in math at the U. of Utah, where we've generally used Maple. I'd +>propose working with the math department on integrating AXIOM into some +>of these courses, and using the experience to improve AXIOM as a +>teaching tool. + +Memory fails me for the best contact but check with Paul Zimmermann +(Paul.Zimmermann@loria.fr). He can put you in touch with people +who share your interest in this. + +>3. Integrating AXIOM with theorem proving. I'm right now working +>with one of the principal developers of the HOL theorem proving system +>(who happens to be in the Utah CS department). I don't speak for him, +>but he and I have discussed integrating HOL with computer algebra and +>I think he'd be interested if we could get funded to do the work. + +The best contacts here are either at UTexas (ACL2, contact +Michael Bogomolny ) or Cornell (MetaPRL, +contact Sergey Artimov) + +>4. Programming language research in the context of symbolic algebra. +>I've discussed this idea with one of the computer languages people in +>the CS department. He's an expert in component and module systems and +>the principal developer of PLT Scheme and the Dr. Scheme development +>environment. (By the way, Dr. Scheme's design is very flexible and it +>can be easily modified to provide a development environment for a +>computer algebra system.) Again, I don't speak for him, but he seems +>enthusiastic about the idea. + +I'm unfamiliar with PLT Scheme or Dr. Scheme, though I've used scheme +in the past. Axiom requires some low-level mods to most lisps to +support things like sockets and dynamic loading of native code. +Plus we plan to push Axiom into parallel programming so there would +have to be some support for MPI. I have set up a beowulf so I'm +interested in reflecting this parallelism into the type hierarchy +and the data structures. + +Hope this helps. + +Tim + +\start +Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 19:45:52 -0500 +From: root +To: Norman Ramsey , axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Cc: daly@idsi.net +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Catch 22 + +Norman, + +I've got a catch 22 going on and perhaps you can suggest a better solution. + +Lets suppose I have a literate program P that documents a Java program. +P contains several classes. In order to construct P from the P.nw file +I need a makefile to automate the extraction. The makefile contains +lines like: + +extract: + notangle -Rfoo.java P.nw >foo.java + notangle -Rbar.java P.nw >bar.java + +etc... + +Being a fan of literate programming the Makefile is also literate +so to extract it we need to say + + notangle Makefile.nw >Makefile + +Now if I want to send you a literate program you get 2 files, +P.nw and Makefile.nw. I'm trying to figure out a way to reduce +this to one file with the idea that I can embed the Makefile +into P. Thus, I'd like to incant: + + notangle -withMakefile P.nw + make + +so that the -withMakefile would look for the <> tag +and extract it. + +This almost works now except that the steps are more tedious +and I've taken to keeping the files separate. Is this a reasonable +modification? Would others find it useful? I feel it would be +elegant to just send one file rather than two. + +Tim + +\start +Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 23:14:28 -0500 +From: root +To: nr@eecs.harvard.edu, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +CC: daly@idsi.net +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: Catch 22 + +I played with your suggestion of using bundle and distributing +both files. It seems no different than just using tar. However +a different idea seems to work out to a good solution. If I use +the <<*>> tag to surround the makefile code: + +/section{The Makefile} +<<*>>= +all: + notangle -Rfoo.java P.nw >foo.java + notangle -Rbar.java P.nw >bar.java + javac *.java +@ + +and the tags: + +/section{foo.java} +<>= +... +@ +/section{bar.java} +<>= +... +@ + +then I can send just the P.nw file. The rules for unpacking it +and making the program become: + + notangle P.nw >Makefile + make + +This seems like an elegant solution as I only need to send one +file, the Makefile is up to date, and there are no modifications +needed to noweb. + +Tim + +\start +Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 23:23:33 -0500 +From: root +To: bill.page1@sympatico.ca, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +CC: axiom-mail@nongnu.org +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: [Axiom-mail] Status + +Actually, I have no estimate. The key to the game is to get the lisp +running as this is the only part of the system that is new to me. +Axiom used to be hosted on AKCL, now GCL, and Camm and I have discussed +rehosting it there. I expect it to run on both as they each have +advantages. In any case, though, the game is to get it to run anywhere +and I'm working on that at the moment. There really isn't any point +to posting the sources as the build process is very complex and +not documented (as yet. it will be). I've built the first version +of the lisp and now am working on building the "image" file. +Unfortunately there isn't any obvious way to share this task. + +The new system build uses noweb (search for noweb Ramsey in google) +which is a tool to support literate programming. If Axiom has any +chance to survive it has got to be documented so anyone who is +willing to put out the effort can learn how to build, modify and +maintain it. I suggest you look at noweb and I can send you an +example file or two to bring you up to speed on how I'm using it. + +Once the lisp build works locally I can upload the lisp portion +of the system, you can try to build it, and we can work on +correcting the problems with the build. + +What is your background? Programmer? Mathematician? What area of +Axiom strikes your interest? + +Tim + diff --git a/book/2002-11 b/book/2002-11 new file mode 100644 index 0000000..732461b --- /dev/null +++ b/book/2002-11 @@ -0,0 +1,16114 @@ +From daly@idsi.net Fri Nov 01 12:09:40 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 187fIi-0004PP-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Fri, 01 Nov 2002 12:09:40 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 187fIg-0004Oy-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Fri, 01 Nov 2002 12:09:39 -0500 +Received: from hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.22]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 187fIg-0004Ou-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Fri, 01 Nov 2002 12:09:38 -0500 +Received: from dialup-63.208.87.56.dial1.stamford1.level3.net ([63.208.87.56] helo=localhost.localdomain) + by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) + id 187fIG-0002T5-00; Fri, 01 Nov 2002 09:09:13 -0800 +Received: (from root@localhost) + by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.6) id gA1GmgZ08255; + Fri, 1 Nov 2002 11:48:42 -0500 +Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 11:48:42 -0500 +Message-Id: <200211011648.gA1GmgZ08255@localhost.localdomain> +From: root +To: Bill Page , Robert Morelli , + Philippe Toffin , axiom-developer@nongnu.org +CC: daly@idsi.net +Reply-to: daly@idsi.net +Subject: [Axiom-developer] [Axiom-mail] +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Gentlemen, + +All three of you (Bill Page, Robert Morelli, and Philippe Toffin) have +expressed interest in helping with Axiom. I'm starting to set up the +machinery so we can communicate. I have a service provider who has +set up CVS services for me where I can practice remote management of +a project while I get the first version of the code set up. I've +asked for a userid with write access for each of you. Once that arrives +I'll let you know where and how to access the code. + +Please do the following: + a) download noweb and try a simple example. + b) make sure you copy axiom-developer@nongnu.org on your emails so + we have a record of this process. as more developers join I can + point them at the record and get them up to speed. + +The userids should arrive shortly and I'll let you know as soon as +they are available. Working remotely on a project can be frustrating +(I've already done it) and there will be times when you feel like +you are either neglected or out of the loop of the discussions. +Please try to be patient with your fellow developers. They are all +volunteers like yourself and they have real lives, real time +constraints, and real interests that may not match yours. + +Thanks for volunteering. + + + +From bill.page1@sympatico.ca Fri Nov 01 16:54:32 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 187jkO-00073Y-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Fri, 01 Nov 2002 16:54:32 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 187jkJ-00072W-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Fri, 01 Nov 2002 16:54:31 -0500 +Received: from tomts15-srv.bellnexxia.net ([209.226.175.3]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 187jkJ-00072F-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Fri, 01 Nov 2002 16:54:27 -0500 +Received: from [209.226.175.18] by tomts15-srv.bellnexxia.net + (InterMail vM.5.01.04.19 201-253-122-122-119-20020516) with SMTP + id <20021101215421.KYFZ13155.tomts15-srv.bellnexxia.net@[209.226.175.18]>; + Fri, 1 Nov 2002 16:54:21 -0500 +From: Bill Page +Organization: Daneliuk & Page +To: +CC: +Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 16:54:21 -0500 +MIME-Version: 1.0 +Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 +Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit +Message-Id: <20021101215421.KYFZ13155.tomts15-srv.bellnexxia.net@[209.226.175.18]> +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: [Axiom-mail] +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Hello everyone, + +Rather than duplicate email, I think I will try sending +this reply just to the axiom-developer list. Tim could +you please let me know if this is ok and if everything is +working as expected with this email list. Is this email +being forwarded to the other people currently interested +in working on AXIOM development? + +On 2002/11/01 Fri AM 11:48:42 EST daly@idsi.net wrote: +> ... +> Please do the following: +> a) download noweb and try a simple example. +> b) make sure you copy axiom-developer@nongnu.org on your +> emails so we have a record of this process. as more +> developers join I can point them at the record and get +> them up to speed. +> + +I am new to noweb but the concept is familiar to me. Also +Linux is not my usual working environment although I do +use it for several things including Aldor and running a +NAT router on my network. I currently use RedHat 7.2 and +intend to install 8.0 pretty soon. + +Do any of you have experience with the cygwin environment +under Windows? I the following web site seems to contain +some current information and a detailed recipe for running +noweb (as well as ICON and MikTex) under cygwin on Windows: + + http://www.literateprogramming.com/noweb/nowebinstall.html + +I have tried this and it seems to work exactly as +advertised. + +Will it be possible for me to use the cygwin environment +for develop work on AXIOM? If it is possible, do you think +it is advisable? + +Regards, +Bill Page. + + + + +From daly@idsi.net Fri Nov 01 22:18:48 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 187ooB-0005nV-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Fri, 01 Nov 2002 22:18:47 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 187oo2-0005kx-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Fri, 01 Nov 2002 22:18:44 -0500 +Received: from snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.62]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 187onx-0005hA-00; Fri, 01 Nov 2002 22:18:33 -0500 +Received: from dialup-63.208.87.56.dial1.stamford1.level3.net ([63.208.87.56] helo=localhost.localdomain) + by snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) + id 187ono-00043f-00; Fri, 01 Nov 2002 19:18:24 -0800 +Received: (from root@localhost) + by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.6) id gA22vnU08915; + Fri, 1 Nov 2002 21:57:49 -0500 +Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 21:57:49 -0500 +Message-Id: <200211020257.gA22vnU08915@localhost.localdomain> +From: root +To: Bill Page , Robert Morelli , + Philippe Toffin , axiom-developer@nongnu.org +CC: daly@idsi.net, axiom-mail@nongnu.org +In-reply-to: + <20021101144327.IEOH6868.tomts24-srv.bellnexxia.net@[209.226.175.18]> + (message from Bill Page on Fri, 1 Nov 2002 9:43:27 -0500) +Reply-to: daly@idsi.net +References: <20021101144327.IEOH6868.tomts24-srv.bellnexxia.net@[209.226.175.18]> +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: [Axiom-mail] Status +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +All, + +Be sure you've subscribed to the axiom-developer mailing list as I'll only +be copying the list from now on so we can journal the discussions. I urge +you to actually try these instructions because it will make sure that we +share the same ability to create, use and view pamphlets. If these +instructions don't work for you let me know because we need to make +sure you've got a proper environment set up. + +I've uploaded 3 examples of literate programming to illustrate styles. + +An Algebra Example: + +The first is called dhmatrix.pamphlet. The instructions for use are: + +1) wget http://home.earthlink.net/~jgg964/dhmatrix.pamphlet +2) notangle dhmatrix.pamphlet >dhmatrix.spad +3) noweave dhmatrix.pamphlet >dhmatrix.tex +4) latex dhmatrix.tex +5) latex dhmatrix.tex +6) xdvi dhmatrix.dvi + +step (1) will fetch the file. (wget is a useful utility for fetching + files given by a url. how you actually get the file is up to you) +step (2) will read the pamphlet file and create a spad file. + spad is the algebra language of Axiom. This file is extracted from + the pamphlet file and when diff'ed against the original source + shows no difference (an important point since we don't want to + introduce errors by wrapping the original source files into a + literate style). +step (3) will extract the tex output from the pamphlet file. notice + that the dhmatrix.tex file has commands like \documentclass + prepended automatically by noweb. This is, in general, not what + we want so normally we will use the -delay parameter to noweave. + However for this particular example I am experimenting with the + ability to collect many pamphlets into a booklet and I deliberately + left off the \documentclass, etc. The default behavior of noweb + works in this case. +step (4) and (5) read the dhmatrix.tex file and create dhmatrix.dvi + We need to latex it twice to get the cross-references right. I + don't believe there are any cross-references in this file yet but + I do this by habit. +step (6) will let us view the dhmatrix.dvi file. You could also use + other utilities like dvips to create a postscript file or dvipdf + to create a pdf file. I tend to work directly from the dvi file. + +The dhmatrix.pamphlet file is an example of documenting the algebra +code. The original dhmatrix.spad file (which I wrote) was taken from +Richard Paul's Ph.D. thesis which became a book (Robot Manipulators). +Richard gave me permission to quote from his thesis for documenting +the domain. There is much more work to be done but this pamphlet was +written as a first experiment. + +In general I hope to search out primary sources for the algebra +that lives in Axiom and either get permission to directly quote +the relevant paper or study the paper and write a new pamphlet. +There is a large piece of work to track down the original works. + +The next piece of algebra documentation is to use Barry Trager's +Ph.D. thesis to document the integration code. I have his thesis +and permission to use it for documentation purposes. There is a +long leap from the thesis to the code so I have a fair bit of +background research I need to do before I can write up the +pamphlet. The original thesis is 85 pages. + + + +A MAKEFILE Example: + +The second file I've uploaded is actually from the sources we'll +be using. It is a Makefile in the Codemist Common Lisp (CCL) subtree. +The instructions are: + +1) wget http://home.earthlink.net/~jgg964/Makefile.pamphlet +2) notangle -t8 Makefile.pamphlet >Makefile +3) noweave -delay Makefile.pamphlet >Makefile.tex +4) latex Makefile.tex +5) latex Makefile.tex +6) xdvi -expert -s 3 Makefile.dvi + +step (1) will fetch the file. +step (2) will read the pamphlet file and create the Makefile. Notice + the -t8 (tabs every 8 spaces) parameter to notangle. In general we + will need this parameter and it doesn't hurt to have it if there are + no tabs so we will use it all the time. +step (3) noweave will read the pamphlet file and create the tex output. + Notice the -delay option to noweave. We have included the \documentstyle + and other header information in the pamphlet file already. The -delay + option allows us to do this. Unless the file is going to be included + as part of a larger document (like the algebra file above) we will + generally write our own document headers. +steps (4) and (5) are latex->dvi done twice to get reference right. + You are certain to get a complaint about a missing noweb.sty file + because this Makefile was ripped out of the real source tree. + For demo purposes you can modify the line in the original pamphlet + file from: +\usepackage{/home/axiomgnu/new/mnt/linux/bin/tex/noweb} + to: +\usepackage{noweb} + and rerun the command. I would ask you to resist the urge to + change the tex file directly as you need to think of the pamphlet + file as the source and everything else as machine-generated files. +step (6) invokes xdvi with -expert (which eliminates the buttons as + I know the keyboard commands) and -s 3 (which gives sufficient + magnification so I can read it). + +This makefile shows a documentation style for Makefiles in general. + +Makefiles are generally very verbose in their stanzas because we will +not be doing compiles in the same directories as the source files nor +will we be depending on default stanzas to do compiles. + +We need to document the various stanzas and any special options that +we might add to the compile commands. Look for the TPD string which +I use to ifdef any changes I made to the original C sources. This +shows up as a -DTPD on the compile line for that particular stanza. + +Also note that the end of the Makefile.tex contains references to +other pamphlets. The reason for these to support a future plan. We'd +like to be able to accept new code, particularly algebra code, that +we can add to the system in a reasonably automated fashion. The +references will give us this connection. I expect to expand the +format later. These are only placeholders. + +The other reason for the references is that the commands are not +actually documented in the Makefile. The Makefile only documents +build information and other special instructions. For instance, +in another Makefile (not shown here) you need to build a special +Axiom library before you build the C code. While the Makefiles +know this it would be easy for a human to overlook. Instructions +on how to use a particular command as well as documentation on +the C code that implements the command do not belong in the Makefile +but reside in the pamphlet file for the command itself. + +Makefiles will also contain information about what a particular +directory contains and why it exists in the source tree. + + + +A Non-Axiom Example: + +This is an example using Java to show how to build a stand-alone +command and its Makefile + +1) wget http://home.earthlink.net/~jgg964/Magman.pamphlet +2) notangle -t8 Magman.pamphlet >Makefile +3) make + +This illustrates a couple of useful points. First, the default +output of running notangle is the stanza marked <<*>>= in the +original source file. In Magman.pamphlet this is the Makefile. +If you read the dvi file that gets generated (or read the +generated Makefile if you must (sigh)) you will see that we +use the -R feature of notangle. The -R flag will extract particular +tags from the pamphlet file. So, if this were C code we could embed +the .h file, the .c file, and the associated Makefile into the pamphlet +and send them as one file. + +Another point is that this pamphlet file has real mathematics and +real references in it. We will need this to explain sections of Axiom. +In the long term plan we want people to submit papers to an Axiom +Journal that includes the mathematics and executable code. That way +reviewers can test the code, readers can understand the code, the +system can import the code and maintainers can update the code. + +This code is not related to Axiom but is here to illustrate the +embedded Makefile and mathematics points. If you don't have Java +this will fail but that is not important. Note that we mix Java +C and Makefile in the same pamphlet file. + +Tim + + + + + + + + + +From bill.page1@sympatico.ca Sun Nov 03 22:10:28 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 188XdD-0002Sa-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Sun, 03 Nov 2002 22:10:27 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 188Xd4-0002KI-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Sun, 03 Nov 2002 22:10:25 -0500 +Received: from tomts15-srv.bellnexxia.net ([209.226.175.3]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 188Xd2-0002Hk-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Sun, 03 Nov 2002 22:10:16 -0500 +Received: from Asus ([216.208.193.149]) by tomts15-srv.bellnexxia.net + (InterMail vM.5.01.04.19 201-253-122-122-119-20020516) with ESMTP + id <20021104031008.XQPH13155.tomts15-srv.bellnexxia.net@Asus>; + Sun, 3 Nov 2002 22:10:08 -0500 +From: "Bill Page" +To: +Cc: +Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 22:10:06 -0500 +Message-ID: <000001c283af$ae36d620$6501a8c0@Asus> +MIME-Version: 1.0 +Content-Type: text/plain; + charset="us-ascii" +Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit +X-Priority: 3 (Normal) +X-MSMail-Priority: Normal +X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4024 +Importance: Normal +In-Reply-To: <200211020257.gA22vnU08915@localhost.localdomain> +X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 +Subject: [Axiom-developer] examples +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Tim, + +I have successfully downloaded your 3 sample pamphlet +files and completed the recommended exercises. So far +everything seems to be working ok for me win cygwin +under Windows XP just as you describe. It seems to me +that this should work quite well. + +Let me know when you have the user id for access to +CVS. + +Thanks. + +Bill Page. + +> -----Original Message----- +> From: axiom-mail-admin@nongnu.org +> [mailto:axiom-mail-admin@nongnu.org] On Behalf Of root +> Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 9:58 PM +> To: Bill Page; Robert Morelli; Philippe Toffin; +> axiom-developer@nongnu.org +> Cc: daly@idsi.net; axiom-mail@nongnu.org +> Subject: Re: [Axiom-mail] Status +> +> +> All, +> +> Be sure you've subscribed to the axiom-developer mailing list +> as I'll only be copying the list from now on so we can +> journal the discussions. I urge you to actually try these +> instructions because it will make sure that we share the same +> ability to create, use and view pamphlets. If these +> instructions don't work for you let me know because we need +> to make sure you've got a proper environment set up. +> +> I've uploaded 3 examples of literate programming to illustrate styles. +> +> An Algebra Example: +> +> The first is called dhmatrix.pamphlet. The instructions for use are: +> +> 1) wget http://home.earthlink.net/~jgg964/dhmatrix.pamphlet +> 2) notangle dhmatrix.pamphlet >dhmatrix.spad +> 3) noweave dhmatrix.pamphlet >dhmatrix.tex +> 4) latex dhmatrix.tex +> 5) latex dhmatrix.tex +> 6) xdvi dhmatrix.dvi +> +> step (1) will fetch the file. (wget is a useful utility for fetching +> files given by a url. how you actually get the file is up +> to you) step (2) will read the pamphlet file and create a spad file. +> spad is the algebra language of Axiom. This file is extracted from +> the pamphlet file and when diff'ed against the original source +> shows no difference (an important point since we don't want to +> introduce errors by wrapping the original source files into a +> literate style). +> step (3) will extract the tex output from the pamphlet file. notice +> that the dhmatrix.tex file has commands like \documentclass +> prepended automatically by noweb. This is, in general, not what +> we want so normally we will use the -delay parameter to noweave. +> However for this particular example I am experimenting with the +> ability to collect many pamphlets into a booklet and I deliberately +> left off the \documentclass, etc. The default behavior of noweb +> works in this case. +> step (4) and (5) read the dhmatrix.tex file and create dhmatrix.dvi +> We need to latex it twice to get the cross-references right. I +> don't believe there are any cross-references in this file yet but +> I do this by habit. +> step (6) will let us view the dhmatrix.dvi file. You could also use +> other utilities like dvips to create a postscript file or dvipdf +> to create a pdf file. I tend to work directly from the dvi file. +> +> The dhmatrix.pamphlet file is an example of documenting the +> algebra code. The original dhmatrix.spad file (which I wrote) +> was taken from Richard Paul's Ph.D. thesis which became a +> book (Robot Manipulators). Richard gave me permission to +> quote from his thesis for documenting the domain. There is +> much more work to be done but this pamphlet was written as a +> first experiment. +> +> In general I hope to search out primary sources for the +> algebra that lives in Axiom and either get permission to +> directly quote the relevant paper or study the paper and +> write a new pamphlet. There is a large piece of work to track +> down the original works. +> +> The next piece of algebra documentation is to use Barry +> Trager's Ph.D. thesis to document the integration code. I +> have his thesis and permission to use it for documentation +> purposes. There is a long leap from the thesis to the code so +> I have a fair bit of background research I need to do before +> I can write up the +> pamphlet. The original thesis is 85 pages. +> +> +> +> A MAKEFILE Example: +> +> The second file I've uploaded is actually from the sources +> we'll be using. It is a Makefile in the Codemist Common Lisp +> (CCL) subtree. The instructions are: +> +> 1) wget http://home.earthlink.net/~jgg964/Makefile.pamphlet +> 2) notangle -t8 Makefile.pamphlet >Makefile +> 3) noweave -delay Makefile.pamphlet >Makefile.tex +> 4) latex Makefile.tex +> 5) latex Makefile.tex +> 6) xdvi -expert -s 3 Makefile.dvi +> +> step (1) will fetch the file. +> step (2) will read the pamphlet file and create the Makefile. Notice +> the -t8 (tabs every 8 spaces) parameter to notangle. In general we +> will need this parameter and it doesn't hurt to have it if +> there are +> no tabs so we will use it all the time. +> step (3) noweave will read the pamphlet file and create the +> tex output. +> Notice the -delay option to noweave. We have included the +> \documentstyle +> and other header information in the pamphlet file already. +> The -delay +> option allows us to do this. Unless the file is going to +> be included +> as part of a larger document (like the algebra file above) we will +> generally write our own document headers. +> steps (4) and (5) are latex->dvi done twice to get reference right. +> You are certain to get a complaint about a missing noweb.sty file +> because this Makefile was ripped out of the real source tree. +> For demo purposes you can modify the line in the original pamphlet +> file from: \usepackage{/home/axiomgnu/new/mnt/linux/bin/tex/noweb} +> to: +> \usepackage{noweb} +> and rerun the command. I would ask you to resist the urge to +> change the tex file directly as you need to think of the pamphlet +> file as the source and everything else as +> machine-generated files. step (6) invokes xdvi with -expert +> (which eliminates the buttons as +> I know the keyboard commands) and -s 3 (which gives sufficient +> magnification so I can read it). +> +> This makefile shows a documentation style for Makefiles in general. +> +> Makefiles are generally very verbose in their stanzas because +> we will not be doing compiles in the same directories as the +> source files nor will we be depending on default stanzas to +> do compiles. +> +> We need to document the various stanzas and any special +> options that we might add to the compile commands. Look for +> the TPD string which I use to ifdef any changes I made to the +> original C sources. This shows up as a -DTPD on the compile +> line for that particular stanza. +> +> Also note that the end of the Makefile.tex contains +> references to other pamphlets. The reason for these to +> support a future plan. We'd like to be able to accept new +> code, particularly algebra code, that we can add to the +> system in a reasonably automated fashion. The +> references will give us this connection. I expect to expand +> the format later. These are only placeholders. +> +> The other reason for the references is that the commands are +> not actually documented in the Makefile. The Makefile only +> documents build information and other special instructions. +> For instance, in another Makefile (not shown here) you need +> to build a special Axiom library before you build the C code. +> While the Makefiles know this it would be easy for a human to +> overlook. Instructions on how to use a particular command as +> well as documentation on the C code that implements the +> command do not belong in the Makefile but reside in the +> pamphlet file for the command itself. +> +> Makefiles will also contain information about what a +> particular directory contains and why it exists in the source tree. +> +> +> +> A Non-Axiom Example: +> +> This is an example using Java to show how to build a +> stand-alone command and its Makefile +> +> 1) wget http://home.earthlink.net/~jgg964/Magman.pamphlet +> 2) notangle -t8 Magman.pamphlet >Makefile +> 3) make +> +> This illustrates a couple of useful points. First, the +> default output of running notangle is the stanza marked +> <<*>>= in the original source file. In Magman.pamphlet this +> is the Makefile. If you read the dvi file that gets generated +> (or read the generated Makefile if you must (sigh)) you will +> see that we use the -R feature of notangle. The -R flag will +> extract particular tags from the pamphlet file. So, if this +> were C code we could embed the .h file, the .c file, and the +> associated Makefile into the pamphlet +> and send them as one file. +> +> Another point is that this pamphlet file has real mathematics +> and real references in it. We will need this to explain +> sections of Axiom. In the long term plan we want people to +> submit papers to an Axiom +> Journal that includes the mathematics and executable code. +> That way reviewers can test the code, readers can understand +> the code, the system can import the code and maintainers can +> update the code. +> +> This code is not related to Axiom but is here to illustrate +> the embedded Makefile and mathematics points. If you don't have Java +> this will fail but that is not important. Note that we mix +> Java C and Makefile in the same pamphlet file. +> +> Tim +> +> +> +> +> +> +> +> +> _______________________________________________ +> Axiom-mail mailing list +> Axiom-mail@nongnu.org +> http://mail.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/axiom-> mail +> + + + + +From daly@idsi.net Sun Nov 03 22:18:06 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 188Xkc-0000pR-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Sun, 03 Nov 2002 22:18:06 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 188XkV-0000bw-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Sun, 03 Nov 2002 22:18:03 -0500 +Received: from hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.22]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 188XkU-0000Vm-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Sun, 03 Nov 2002 22:17:58 -0500 +Received: from dialup-63.208.86.228.dial1.stamford1.level3.net ([63.208.86.228] helo=localhost.localdomain) + by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) + id 188XkN-0006IA-00; Sun, 03 Nov 2002 19:17:52 -0800 +Received: (from root@localhost) + by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.6) id gA42vKL18155; + Sun, 3 Nov 2002 21:57:20 -0500 +Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 21:57:20 -0500 +Message-Id: <200211040257.gA42vKL18155@localhost.localdomain> +From: root +To: bill.page1@sympatico.ca +CC: daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Reply-to: daly@idsi.net +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: examples +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Excellent. Rumor has it that CCL will run under windows and cygwin so +you might end up taking the lead in applying fixes and testing those +platforms. I'm still getting CCL ready for first release. Once that +comes out we can see what the windows and cygwin issues are. + +Tim + + + +From bill.page1@sympatico.ca Mon Nov 04 17:48:59 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 188q1j-00044K-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Mon, 04 Nov 2002 17:48:59 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 188q1f-000440-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Mon, 04 Nov 2002 17:48:57 -0500 +Received: from tomts15.bellnexxia.net ([209.226.175.3] helo=tomts15-srv.bellnexxia.net) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 188q1e-00043l-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Mon, 04 Nov 2002 17:48:54 -0500 +Received: from [209.226.175.18] by tomts15-srv.bellnexxia.net + (InterMail vM.5.01.04.19 201-253-122-122-119-20020516) with SMTP + id <20021104224852.YTVA13155.tomts15-srv.bellnexxia.net@[209.226.175.18]>; + Mon, 4 Nov 2002 17:48:52 -0500 +From: Bill Page +Organization: Daneliuk & Page +To: +CC: +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Re: examples +Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 17:48:52 -0500 +MIME-Version: 1.0 +Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 +Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit +Message-Id: <20021104224852.YTVA13155.tomts15-srv.bellnexxia.net@[209.226.175.18]> +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Tim, + +Ok, that's fine with me. I am willing to run with cygwin +for now. If necessary, I can switch over to Red Hat Linux +on another system later (or maybe I will work in parallel +on both systems if I have enough time). + +What is the situation with CCL (Codemist Common Lisp, +right?)? Is Codemist making it public domain? It seems +to me that when I installed REDUCE (also based on CCL), +that the lisp interpreter was "proprietary". + +Is there anything in particular you would recommend in +terms of getting ready for CCL? + +Regards, +Bill Page. + +> +> From: root +> Date: 2002/11/03 Sun PM 09:57:20 EST +> To: bill.page1@sympatico.ca +> CC: daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +> Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: examples +> +> Excellent. Rumor has it that CCL will run under windows and cygwin so +> you might end up taking the lead in applying fixes and testing those +> platforms. I'm still getting CCL ready for first release. Once that +> comes out we can see what the windows and cygwin issues are. +> +> Tim +> +> +> _______________________________________________ +> Axiom-developer mailing list +> Axiom-developer@nongnu.org +> http://mail.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/axiom-developer +> + + + + +From bill.page1@sympatico.ca Mon Nov 04 18:24:51 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 188qaQ-0002by-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Mon, 04 Nov 2002 18:24:50 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 188qaK-0002Xy-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Mon, 04 Nov 2002 18:24:48 -0500 +Received: from tomts13.bellnexxia.net ([209.226.175.34] helo=tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 188qPR-0006g7-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Mon, 04 Nov 2002 18:13:29 -0500 +Received: from [209.226.175.18] by tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net + (InterMail vM.5.01.04.19 201-253-122-122-119-20020516) with SMTP + id <20021104231328.GIZW2262.tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net@[209.226.175.18]>; + Mon, 4 Nov 2002 18:13:28 -0500 +From: Bill Page +Organization: Daneliuk & Page +To: +CC: +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Re: examples +Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 18:13:28 -0500 +MIME-Version: 1.0 +Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 +Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit +Message-Id: <20021104231328.GIZW2262.tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net@[209.226.175.18]> +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Tim, + +What is the story about the version of CCL (and Axiom??) +that is available at the Codemist website + + http://www.codemist.co.uk/ + +(click on the CSL/CCL link). The same thing is also +apparently at + + http://homepage.ntlworld.com/codemist/ + +In a quick web search several people have apparently +already noticed that this is now available but no one +mentions any notice or statement from Codemist. + +Regards, +Bill Page. + +> +> From: root +> Date: 2002/11/03 Sun PM 09:57:20 EST +> To: bill.page1@sympatico.ca +> CC: daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +> Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: examples +> +> Excellent. Rumor has it that CCL will run under windows and cygwin so +> you might end up taking the lead in applying fixes and testing those +> platforms. I'm still getting CCL ready for first release. Once that +> comes out we can see what the windows and cygwin issues are. +> +> Tim +> +> +> _______________________________________________ +> Axiom-developer mailing list +> Axiom-developer@nongnu.org +> http://mail.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/axiom-developer +> + + + + +From daly@idsi.net Mon Nov 04 20:05:12 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 188s9Y-0002is-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Mon, 04 Nov 2002 20:05:12 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 188s9V-0002i3-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Mon, 04 Nov 2002 20:05:11 -0500 +Received: from conure.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.54]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 188s9V-0002cN-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Mon, 04 Nov 2002 20:05:09 -0500 +Received: from dialup-63.215.236.48.dial1.stamford1.level3.net ([63.215.236.48] helo=localhost.localdomain) + by conure.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) + id 188s9Q-00079G-00; Mon, 04 Nov 2002 17:05:04 -0800 +Received: (from root@localhost) + by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.6) id gA50iTM19567; + Mon, 4 Nov 2002 19:44:29 -0500 +Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 19:44:29 -0500 +Message-Id: <200211050044.gA50iTM19567@localhost.localdomain> +From: root +To: bill.page1@sympatico.ca +CC: daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Subject: [Axiom-developer] ccl.tgz +Reply-to: daly@idsi.net +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +re: http://www.codemist.co.uk/ccl.tgz + +These were the original files I used for downloading, I believe. +Google must have found them from somewhere. They are massively changed +into literate format in the current system though the pamphlet files +contain little more than source code at the moment. The makefiles are +wildly different and are documented. I haven't concentrated on +documenting any of the internals yet except where I need to make +changes. That step will occur when I have cycles to spare. + +The REDUCE lisp interpreter was (and portions still are) proprietary. +Arthur Norman has released portions of the code necessary to build Axiom +under the BSD style license used by NAG. + +re: getting ready for CCL + +I've created a CVS directory on the real website (it is only +the license directory and it contains the text of the licenses +I've found in the source code consolidated into single files). +See if you can check out the axiom subtree. It should contain +the following structure: + + axiom + license + LICENSE.AXIOM + LICENSE.BULL + LICENSE.CCL + LICENSE.EAY + LICENSE.FSF + LICENSE.NOWEB + LICENSE.RAND + LICENSE.SMC + +Please make note of all of the steps required to get these files, +including what pages you had to visit and what permissions you needed +(I believe you'll have to generate an ssh key). I'll use your steps +document as instructions for new developers so try to be as detailed +as possible. Once you can reach these files I'll start CVS adding the +tree I have now. That will allow us to see if you can build the lisps. +It all builds cleanly here but I have a monoculture of Linux systems. + +Tim + + + + + + + +From daly@idsi.net Mon Nov 04 21:47:27 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 188tkU-0008Id-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Mon, 04 Nov 2002 21:47:26 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 188tkQ-0008GT-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Mon, 04 Nov 2002 21:47:25 -0500 +Received: from harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.12]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 188tkQ-0008GF-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Mon, 04 Nov 2002 21:47:22 -0500 +Received: from dialup-65.58.185.16.dial1.stamford1.level3.net ([65.58.185.16] helo=localhost.localdomain) + by harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) + id 188tkN-0003zy-00; Mon, 04 Nov 2002 18:47:19 -0800 +Received: (from root@localhost) + by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.6) id gA52QjE19913; + Mon, 4 Nov 2002 21:26:45 -0500 +Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 21:26:45 -0500 +Message-Id: <200211050226.gA52QjE19913@localhost.localdomain> +From: root +To: bill.page1@sympatico.ca +CC: daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Subject: [Axiom-developer] AIM Instant Message +Reply-to: daly@idsi.net +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +I've registered with the AOL Instant Messenger service under +the screen name of "gnuaxiom". If you have access to this +service try adding me to your buddy list. + +Tim + + + +From daly@idsi.net Mon Nov 04 20:16:24 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 188sKN-0001UD-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Mon, 04 Nov 2002 20:16:23 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 188sKK-0001Pe-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Mon, 04 Nov 2002 20:16:21 -0500 +Received: from hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.22]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 188sKJ-0001OV-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Mon, 04 Nov 2002 20:16:20 -0500 +Received: from dialup-63.215.236.48.dial1.stamford1.level3.net ([63.215.236.48] helo=localhost.localdomain) + by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) + id 188sKB-0000sp-00; Mon, 04 Nov 2002 17:16:12 -0800 +Received: (from root@localhost) + by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.6) id gA50tbH19577; + Mon, 4 Nov 2002 19:55:37 -0500 +Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 19:55:37 -0500 +Message-Id: <200211050055.gA50tbH19577@localhost.localdomain> +From: root +To: bill.page1@sympatico.ca +CC: daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Subject: [Axiom-developer] ccl.tgz +Reply-to: daly@idsi.net +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +When you've succeeded doing a CVS checkout I think we should figure +out a mechanism where we can instant message each other (and any other +developers). I know that the AOL things don't run here but there must +be a common format between thee and me. This will vastly shorten the +time it takes to communicate. + +Tim + + + + + + + + +From daly@idsi.net Tue Nov 05 06:54:54 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 1892II-0004CN-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 05 Nov 2002 06:54:54 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 1892ID-0004Aw-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 05 Nov 2002 06:54:53 -0500 +Received: from gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.84]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 1892IC-0004Ab-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 05 Nov 2002 06:54:48 -0500 +Received: from dialup-63.215.232.224.dial1.stamford1.level3.net ([63.215.232.224] helo=localhost.localdomain) + by gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) + id 1892I7-0006rx-00; Tue, 05 Nov 2002 03:54:43 -0800 +Received: (from root@localhost) + by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.6) id gA5BY8020929; + Tue, 5 Nov 2002 06:34:08 -0500 +Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 06:34:08 -0500 +Message-Id: <200211051134.gA5BY8020929@localhost.localdomain> +From: root +To: toffin@math.unicaen.fr +CC: daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +In-reply-to: + + (message from Philippe Toffin on Tue, 5 Nov 2002 09:34:17 +0100 (CET)) +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Axiom Development +Reply-to: daly@idsi.net +References: +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +> Daly, +> +> I have been working with Axiom for many years, first with a version for +> IBM risc6000, (this plattform is not running any more), and now with a +> Linux version that I got from Nag some time ago. +> I am desesperately trying to run my former programs: I enclosed somes +> files with a very simple Domain definition, with one single function; +> you can see the result of the compilation wich is fine, and the result of +> the running wich is interrupted because it does not find the Integers!!! +> +> I do not know if you are the appropriate person able to tell me what is +> wrong; may be there is some open forum for questions: could you forward +> this if it is the case? +> +> thanks anyway +> +> philippe + +Philippe, + +I'll look at this after work tonight. I'm the "appropriate" person as +I'm the only person. We'll eventually have a task list and a bug list +running (actually, they exist but so far they all come to me anyway +so sending me the files directly is quicker). We have to figure out +who is responsible for what parts of the system which will take time. + +I have set up an AOL Instant Messenger client (my screen name is +gnuaxiom). That way everyone who has subscribed to the developer +mailing list will be able to communicate in real time rather than +thru email. + +I'm working to set developers up with write access to CVS on tenkan, +my private CVS server. That way we can make mistakes and work out +details of communicating and working together. The root admin guy +is at a conference until wednesday of this week but I should be ready +shortly after that. + +I posted a single directory with a few files in it on the real CVS. +See if you can do a CVS checkout of the tree. You will need to +create an ssh key (with the -t rsa1 option). You won't yet have +write access to the source but you can read it. + +Tim + + + +From daly@idsi.net Tue Nov 05 06:44:27 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18928A-0002ZJ-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 05 Nov 2002 06:44:26 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 189285-0002Xk-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 05 Nov 2002 06:44:24 -0500 +Received: from conure.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.54]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 189285-0002Vx-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 05 Nov 2002 06:44:21 -0500 +Received: from dialup-63.215.232.224.dial1.stamford1.level3.net ([63.215.232.224] helo=localhost.localdomain) + by conure.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) + id 189280-000718-00; Tue, 05 Nov 2002 03:44:16 -0800 +Received: (from root@localhost) + by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.6) id gA5BNfJ20917; + Tue, 5 Nov 2002 06:23:41 -0500 +Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 06:23:41 -0500 +Message-Id: <200211051123.gA5BNfJ20917@localhost.localdomain> +From: root +To: bill.page1@sympatico.ca +CC: daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Reply-to: daly@idsi.net +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: list of developers +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +> Bill Page wrote: +> +> Tim, +> +> The "Developers List" at +> +> http://savannah.nongnu.org/projects/axiom +> +> still shows only you as a developer. Should I expect to +> see the other three people (including myself) in this list? +> Is this necessary before I can get full access to CVS? +> +> I have made some first attempts to access the axiom cvs +> repository. I can certainly view it via the web with no +> problem. But I don't seem to be able to use :pserver: access +> (at least not from where I am working for the next 2 days - +> behind a rather strick firewall). I'll try this again from +> home on Thursday. +> +> I have also set up and registered an SSH key. I understand +> it takes some time to become effective. It is not working +> yet, but I will try again later today. + +Bill, + +Being on the developer's list will give you write access which we're +really not ready for yet. People will be added to the list when we've +figured out the rest of the machinery and how we are going to +communicate. And we need to decide areas of responsibility so we don't +clobber each other's code as CVS does not support locking. Besides, +at the moment there is nothing to modify. We need to filter the first +few changes thru me until I'm sure developers understand the system. +It is a big system and simple changes can have widespread +consequences. One of the parts we need to get working is a regression +test tree. That used to be wired into the makefiles but only for the +final algebra. We need to do much more thorough testing. + +I'm working on adding developers to the write list on tenkan where I +prototype work and things are much more relaxed as the work is not +publicly available. We can freely damage things there while we work +out the bugs of interacting. Unfortunately the root guy is at a lisp +conference in san fransisco until wednesday. I'll let you know +further details as soon as I know. + +However, you should be able to have read access. Try: + +cvs -z3 -d(yourUserId)@savannah.gnu.org:/cvsroot/axiom co axiom + +it should prompt you for your RSA key. If it isn't prompting you +for the key you might have generated a key without using the +-t rsa1 option. It won't let you login but it will let you do +a checkout. If this doesn't work let me know and we'll debug it. +Be sure to write down whatever you do to fix it as you may be +the first one with the problem but other developers will certainly +fall into the same trap. + +As for communications, I succeeded in setting up AIM on linux. +My screen name is gnuaxiom (axiom was either taken or too short). +If you can't get AIM running lets pick a common instant message +platform so we can improve communications. I'd like to figure out +how to log the message streams so we can share the experience but +so far I don't see how to with this client. If I had the cycles +I'd grab the source and hack it in but that's pretty low on the +long list. I'm generally available after about 5pm EST. + +I checked further into the CCL source code you found. It might build a +running CCL (I didn't try) but it is missing the files necessary to +support Axiom. The benefit of playing with that file might be that you +learn to build CCL using their makefiles. This could be good as +you'll know the details of running it under cygwin and windows, +neither of which I can test but both of which it would be nice to have +running. The down sides are that the makefiles are different and it +won't run Axiom. + +Tim + + + +From bill.page1@sympatico.ca Wed Nov 06 12:25:42 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 189Tvx-0000x4-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 06 Nov 2002 12:25:41 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 189Tvt-0000wJ-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 06 Nov 2002 12:25:40 -0500 +Received: from tomts23.bellnexxia.net ([209.226.175.185] helo=tomts23-srv.bellnexxia.net) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 189Tvt-0000vv-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 06 Nov 2002 12:25:37 -0500 +Received: from [209.226.175.22] by tomts23-srv.bellnexxia.net + (InterMail vM.5.01.04.19 201-253-122-122-119-20020516) with SMTP + id <20021106172534.QNRP18145.tomts23-srv.bellnexxia.net@[209.226.175.22]>; + Wed, 6 Nov 2002 12:25:34 -0500 +From: Bill Page +Organization: Daneliuk & Page +To: +CC: +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] ccl.tgz +Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 12:25:34 -0500 +MIME-Version: 1.0 +Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 +Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit +Message-Id: <20021106172534.QNRP18145.tomts23-srv.bellnexxia.net@[209.226.175.22]> +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Tim, + +Unfortunately AOL (and instant messaging in general) +isn't accessible from the computers as my current +"day job". But it shouldn't be a problem when I am at +home (tomorrow). + +I have continued to try to access the cvs repository but +I am unable to get past the password prompt that is +generated when I do + +$ cvs -dbillpage1@subversions.gnu.org:/cvsroot/axiom co axiom +billpage1@subversions.gnu.org's password: +Permission denied, please try again. +billpage1@subversions.gnu.org's password: +Permission denied, please try again. +billpage1@subversions.gnu.org's password: +Permission denied. +cvs [checkout aborted]: end of file from server + +The documentation says that I would get this prompt if +my public key is not being recognized. But I have double +checked everything and I am quite sure that I have +generated the rsa1 key properly. I've set protocol 1 in +the ssh config file and I have uploaded the public key +to Savannah (and waited the appropriate amount of time). +So I don't think that's the problem. I also thought that +maybe the rather strict firewall rules here where I am +working might prevent an SSH connection, but the network +guru's here assure me that SSH should be possible - +although they warn that almost all non-standard port +usage is disabled. I know that the :pserver: protocol on +cvs uses port 2401 which I am quite sure is on the +disabled list, so that explains why anonymous mode also +does not work (if you have not done anything else to +prevent it). + +Anyway, tomorrow I will try all this again from the other +side of the firewall from my other machines at home. + +Also, in my spare time here I've been poking around the +source for CCL that I downloaded from the Codemist site. +My first attempts to build this under cygwin have been +unsuccessful. There seem to be a number of notes embedded +in make files etc. that need to be consulted and changed +before the make files, as downloaded, will run. There is +also a makemake.c bootstrap program that looks a little +more promising, but although it generated a new set of +make files, those also did not work on my first try. +I don't intend to spend much time on this, but I will let +you know if I make any progress. + +I look forward to seeing (and helping to create) the well +documented noweb version of this stuff. + +Cheers, +Bill Page. + + +> +> From: root +> Date: 2002/11/04 Mon PM 07:55:37 EST +> To: bill.page1@sympatico.ca +> CC: daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +> Subject: [Axiom-developer] ccl.tgz +> +> When you've succeeded doing a CVS checkout I think we should figure +> out a mechanism where we can instant message each other (and any other +> developers). I know that the AOL things don't run here but there must +> be a common format between thee and me. This will vastly shorten the +> time it takes to communicate. +> +> Tim +> +> +> +> +> +> +> +> _______________________________________________ +> Axiom-developer mailing list +> Axiom-developer@nongnu.org +> http://mail.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/axiom-developer +> + + + + +From bill.page1@sympatico.ca Wed Nov 06 14:22:02 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 189VkY-0001GT-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 06 Nov 2002 14:22:02 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 189VkR-0001EP-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 06 Nov 2002 14:21:58 -0500 +Received: from tomts17-srv.bellnexxia.net ([209.226.175.71]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 189UM8-00089o-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 06 Nov 2002 12:52:44 -0500 +Received: from [209.226.175.22] by tomts17-srv.bellnexxia.net + (InterMail vM.5.01.04.19 201-253-122-122-119-20020516) with SMTP + id <20021106175241.LYXK1531.tomts17-srv.bellnexxia.net@[209.226.175.22]>; + Wed, 6 Nov 2002 12:52:41 -0500 +From: Bill Page +Organization: Daneliuk & Page +To: +CC: , +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] AIM Instant Message +Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 12:52:41 -0500 +MIME-Version: 1.0 +Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 +Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit +Message-Id: <20021106175241.LYXK1531.tomts17-srv.bellnexxia.net@[209.226.175.22]> +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Tim, + +I have the Windows instant messaging thing installed at +home and it is supposed to be AOL compatible. I will give +it a try tomorrow. Actually, I very seldom ever use the +instant stuff since I seldom seem to be online when the +person I want to talk to is also online and I find it +rather inefficient in any case. I prefer email for it's +asynchronicity and offline "think time" (plus spellchecker +). But if a quick conversation would help, I am not +at all adverse to the old fashioned telephone. + +If you want you can reach me at + + (613) 546-9795 + +when I'm at home (Thursday -> Sunday) or at + + (613) 996-5896 + +when I am at work. + +Regards, +Bill Page. + +> +> From: root +> Date: 2002/11/04 Mon PM 09:26:45 EST +> To: bill.page1@sympatico.ca +> CC: daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +> Subject: [Axiom-developer] AIM Instant Message +> +> I've registered with the AOL Instant Messenger service under +> the screen name of "gnuaxiom". If you have access to this +> service try adding me to your buddy list. +> +> Tim +> +> +> _______________________________________________ +> Axiom-developer mailing list +> Axiom-developer@nongnu.org +> http://mail.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/axiom-developer +> + + + + +From daly@idsi.net Thu Nov 07 00:37:18 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 189fLy-0004pq-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 07 Nov 2002 00:37:18 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 189fLu-0004oB-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 07 Nov 2002 00:37:16 -0500 +Received: from conure.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.54]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 189fLt-0004nr-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 07 Nov 2002 00:37:14 -0500 +Received: from dialup-63.215.229.217.dial1.stamford1.level3.net ([63.215.229.217] helo=localhost.localdomain) + by conure.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) + id 189fLr-0002z4-00; Wed, 06 Nov 2002 21:37:11 -0800 +Received: (from root@localhost) + by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.6) id gA75Gak23335; + Thu, 7 Nov 2002 00:16:36 -0500 +Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 00:16:36 -0500 +Message-Id: <200211070516.gA75Gak23335@localhost.localdomain> +From: root +To: bill.page1@sympatico.ca +CC: daly@idsi.net, daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +In-reply-to: + <20021106175241.LYXK1531.tomts17-srv.bellnexxia.net@[209.226.175.22]> + (message from Bill Page on Wed, 6 Nov 2002 12:52:41 -0500) +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] AIM Instant Message +Reply-to: daly@idsi.net +References: <20021106175241.LYXK1531.tomts17-srv.bellnexxia.net@[209.226.175.22]> +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Bill, +I've uploaded the latest version to tenkan. +I'm going to try to contact my sysadmin and get the developers +set up with access so we can experiment with working together. + +Tim + + + +From daly@idsi.net Thu Nov 07 00:35:49 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 189fKX-0003oO-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 07 Nov 2002 00:35:49 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 189fKT-0003ls-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 07 Nov 2002 00:35:47 -0500 +Received: from scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.49]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 189fKT-0003kZ-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 07 Nov 2002 00:35:45 -0500 +Received: from dialup-63.215.229.217.dial1.stamford1.level3.net ([63.215.229.217] helo=localhost.localdomain) + by scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) + id 189fJo-000647-00; Wed, 06 Nov 2002 21:35:05 -0800 +Received: (from root@localhost) + by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.6) id gA75ERe23314; + Thu, 7 Nov 2002 00:14:27 -0500 +Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 00:14:27 -0500 +Message-Id: <200211070514.gA75ERe23314@localhost.localdomain> +From: root +To: daly@idsi.net +CC: toffin@math.unicaen.fr, daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +In-reply-to: <200211051134.gA5BY8020929@localhost.localdomain> (message from + root on Tue, 5 Nov 2002 06:34:08 -0500) +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Axiom Development +Reply-to: daly@idsi.net +References: <200211051134.gA5BY8020929@localhost.localdomain> +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Philippe, + +Sorry, I didn't get a chance to look at your problem last night. +I had a surprise presentation I have to set up for a meeting today. + +Tim + + + +From daly@idsi.net Thu Nov 07 00:46:33 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 189fUv-0003eX-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 07 Nov 2002 00:46:33 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 189fUr-0003dM-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 07 Nov 2002 00:46:32 -0500 +Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.122]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 189fU0-0002z9-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 07 Nov 2002 00:45:36 -0500 +Received: from dialup-63.215.229.217.dial1.stamford1.level3.net ([63.215.229.217] helo=localhost.localdomain) + by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) + id 189fTo-0001qD-00; Wed, 06 Nov 2002 21:45:25 -0800 +Received: (from root@localhost) + by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.6) id gA75OnJ23364; + Thu, 7 Nov 2002 00:24:49 -0500 +Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 00:24:49 -0500 +Message-Id: <200211070524.gA75OnJ23364@localhost.localdomain> +From: root +To: A.G.Grozin@inp.nsk.su +CC: daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Reply-to: daly@idsi.net +Subject: [Axiom-developer] clef +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +clef is a single program. the source (without the include files) +is attached. let me know if you need more. + +Tim + +----------------------------------------------------------------- + +/* +Copyright (c) 1991-2002, The Numerical ALgorithms Group Ltd. +All rights reserved. + +Redistribution and use in source and binary forms, with or without +modification, are permitted provided that the following conditions are +met: + + - Redistributions of source code must retain the above copyright + notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer. + + - Redistributions in binary form must reproduce the above copyright + notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer in + the documentation and/or other materials provided with the + distribution. + + - Neither the name of The Numerical ALgorithms Group Ltd. nor the + names of its contributors may be used to endorse or promote products + derived from this software without specific prior written permission. + +THIS SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED BY THE COPYRIGHT HOLDERS AND CONTRIBUTORS "AS +IS" AND ANY EXPRESS OR IMPLIED WARRANTIES, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED +TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A +PARTICULAR PURPOSE ARE DISCLAIMED. IN NO EVENT SHALL THE COPYRIGHT OWNER +OR CONTRIBUTORS BE LIABLE FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, +EXEMPLARY, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES (INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, +PROCUREMENT OF SUBSTITUTE GOODS OR SERVICES; LOSS OF USE, DATA, OR +PROFITS; OR BUSINESS INTERRUPTION) HOWEVER CAUSED AND ON ANY THEORY OF +LIABILITY, WHETHER IN CONTRACT, STRICT LIABILITY, OR TORT (INCLUDING +NEGLIGENCE OR OTHERWISE) ARISING IN ANY WAY OUT OF THE USE OF THIS +SOFTWARE, EVEN IF ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGE. +*/ + +#include "useproto.h" +#include +#include +#include +#include +#include +#include +#include +#include +#include +#include + + +#if defined (SGIplatform) +#include +#endif + + +#include "edible.h" +#include "com.h" +#include "bsdsignal.h" + +#include "bsdsignal.H1" +#include "openpty.H1" +#include "prt.H1" +#include "edin.H1" +#include "wct.H1" +#include "edible.H1" +#include "fnct_key.H1" + +#ifdef unlikely +#define log 1 +#define logterm 1 +#define siglog 1 +#endif + + +#define Cursor_shape(x) + + +#ifdef siglog +int sigfile; +char sigbuff[256]; +#endif + +/* Here are the term structures I need for setting and resetting the + terminal characteristics. */ + +struct termios childbuf; /* the childs normal operating termio */ +struct termios oldbuf; /* the initial settings */ +struct termios rawbuf; /* the parents raw state, when it is doing nothing */ +struct termios canonbuf; /* set it to be canonical */ + +/* the terminals mapping of the function keys */ +unsigned char _INTR, _QUIT, _ERASE, _KILL, _EOF, _EOL, _RES1, _RES2; + + +int ppid; /* the parents's parent pid */ +int child_pid; /* the childs process id */ + +short INS_MODE ; /* Flag for insert mode */ +short ECHOIT = 1; /* Flag for echoing */ +short PTY; /* Flag which tells me whether I should echo newlines */ + +int MODE; /* am I in cbreak, raw, or canonical */ + +char in_buff[1024]; /* buffer for storing characters read until they are processed */ +char buff[MAXLINE]; /** Buffers for collecting input and **/ +int buff_flag[MAXLINE]; /** flags for whether buff chars + are printing + or non-printing **/ + + +char controllerPath[20]; /* path name for opening the controller side */ +char serverPath[20]; /* path name for opening the server side */ + +int contNum, serverNum; /* file descriptors for pty's */ +int num_read; /* Number of chars read */ + +#ifdef log +int logfd; +char logpath[30]; +#endif + + + + + +int +#ifdef _NO_PROTO +main(argc, argv) + int argc; + char *argv[]; +#else +main(int argc, char *argv[]) +#endif + +{ + fd_set rfds; /* the structure for the select call */ + int code; /* return code from system calls */ + char out_buff[MAXLINE]; /* from child and stdin */ + int out_flag[MAXLINE] ; /* initialize the output flags */ + char *program; /* a string to hold the child program invocation */ + char **pargs = 0; /* holds parts of the command line */ + int not_command = 1; /* a flag while parsing the command line */ + + + + /* try to get a pseudoterminal to play with */ + if (ptyopen(&contNum, &serverNum, controllerPath, serverPath) == -1) { + perror("ptyopen failed"); + exit(-1); + } + + /* call the routine that handles signals */ + catch_signals(); + + /* parse the command line arguments - as with the aixterm the command + argument -e should be last on the line. */ + + while(*++argv && not_command) { + if(!strcmp(*argv, "-f")) + load_wct_file(*++argv); + else if(!strcmp(*argv, "-e")) { + not_command = 0; + pargs = ++argv; + } + else { + fprintf(stderr, "usage: clef [-f fname] -e command\n"); + exit(-1); + } + } + skim_wct(); + +#ifdef log + sprintf(logpath, "/tmp/cleflog%d", getpid()); + logfd = open(logpath, O_CREAT | O_RDWR, 0666); +#endif + + /* get the original termio settings, so the child has them */ + + if(tcgetattr(0,&childbuf) == -1) { + perror("clef trying to get the initial terminal settings"); + exit(-1); + } + + /* start the child process */ + + child_pid = fork(); + switch(child_pid) { + case -1 : + perror("clef can't create a new process"); + exit(-1); + case 0: + /* CHILD */ + /* Dissasociate form my parents group so all my child processes + look at my terminal as the controlling terminal for the group */ + setsid(); + + + serverNum = open(serverPath,O_RDWR); + + /* since I am the child, I can close ptc, and dup pts for all it + standard descriptors */ + if( (dup2(serverNum, 0) == -1) || + (dup2(serverNum, 1) == -1) || + (dup2(serverNum, 2) == -1) ) { + perror("clef trying to dup2"); + exit(-1); + } + + /* since they have been duped, close them */ + close(serverNum); + close(contNum); + + + /* To make sure everything is nice, set off enhedit */ + /* childbuf.c_line = 0; */ + + /* reconfigure the child's terminal get echoing */ + if(tcsetattr(0, TCSAFLUSH, &childbuf) == -1) { + perror("clef child trying to set child's terminal"); + exit(-1); + } + + /* fire up the child's process */ + if(pargs){ + execvp( pargs[0], pargs); + perror("clef trying to execvp its argument"); + fprintf(stderr, "Process --> %s\n", pargs[0]); + } + else{ + program = getenv("SHELL"); + if (!program) + program = strdup("/bin/sh"); + else + program = strdup (program); + execlp( program,program, 0); + perror("clef trying to execlp the default child"); + fprintf(stderr, "Process --> %s\n", program); + } + exit(-1); + break; + /* end switch */ + } + /* PARENT */ + /* Since I am the parent, I should start to initialize some stuff. + I have to close the pts side for it to work properly */ + + close(serverNum); + ppid = getppid(); + + /* Iinitialize some stuff for the reading and writing */ + init_flag(out_flag, MAXLINE); + define_function_keys(); + init_reader(); + PTY = 1; + init_parent(); + + /* Here is the main loop, it simply starts reading characters from + the std input, and from the child. */ + + while(1) { /* loop forever */ + + /* use select to see who has stuff waiting for me to handle */ + /* set file descriptors for ptc and stdin */ + FD_ZERO(&rfds); + FD_SET(contNum,&rfds); + FD_SET(0,&rfds); + set_function_chars(); +#ifdef log + { + char modepath[30]; + sprintf(modepath, "\nMODE = %d\n", MODE); + write(logfd, modepath, strlen(modepath)); + } +#endif +#ifdef logterm + { + struct termio ptermio; + char pbuff[1024]; + tcgetattr(contNum, &ptermio); + sprintf(pbuff, "child's settings: Lflag = %d, Oflag = %d, Iflag = %d\n", + ptermio.c_lflag, ptermio.c_oflag, ptermio.c_iflag); + write(logfd, pbuff, strlen(pbuff)); + } +#endif + + code = select(FD_SETSIZE,(void *) &rfds, NULL, NULL, NULL); + for(; code < 0 ;) { + if(errno == EINTR) { + check_flip(); + code = select(FD_SETSIZE,(void *) &rfds, NULL, NULL, NULL); + } + else { + perror("clef select failure"); + exit(-1); + } + } + + /* reading from the child **/ + if( FD_ISSET(contNum,&rfds)) { + if( (num_read = read(contNum, out_buff, MAXLINE)) == -1) { + num_read = 0; + } +#ifdef log + write(logfd, "OUT<<<<<", strlen("OUT<<<<<")); + write(logfd, out_buff, num_read); +#endif + if(num_read > 0) { + /* now do the printing to the screen */ + if(MODE!= CLEFRAW) { + back_up(buff_pntr); + write(1,out_buff, num_read); + print_whole_buff(); /* reprint the input buffer */ + } + else write(1,out_buff, num_read); + } + } /* done the child stuff */ + /* I should read from std input */ + else { + if(FD_ISSET(0,&rfds)) { + num_read = read(0, in_buff, MAXLINE); +#ifdef log + write(logfd, "IN<<<<<", strlen("IN<<<<<")); + write(logfd, in_buff, num_read); +#endif + check_flip(); + if(MODE == CLEFRAW ) + write(contNum, in_buff, num_read); + else + do_reading(); + } + } + } +} + + +void +#ifdef _NO_PROTO +init_parent() +#else +init_parent(void) +#endif +{ + + /* get the original termio settings, so I never have to check again */ + if(tcgetattr(0, &oldbuf) == -1) { + perror("clef trying to get terminal initial settings"); + exit(-1); + } + + /* get the settings for my different modes */ + if ((tcgetattr(0, &canonbuf) == -1) || + (tcgetattr(0, &rawbuf) == -1) ) { + perror("clef trying to get terminal settings"); + exit(-1); + } + + + canonbuf.c_lflag &= ~(ICANON | ECHO | ISIG); + /* read before an eoln is typed */ + + canonbuf.c_lflag |= ISIG; + + /* canonbuf.c_line = 0; turn off enhanced edit */ + + canonbuf.c_cc[VMIN] = 1; /* we want every character */ + canonbuf.c_cc[VTIME] = 1; /* these may require tweaking */ + + /* also set up the parents raw setting for when needed **/ + rawbuf.c_oflag = rawbuf.c_iflag = rawbuf.c_lflag /* = rawbuf.c_line */ = 0; + rawbuf.c_cc[VMIN] = 1; + rawbuf.c_cc[VTIME] = 1; + + + if(tcsetattr(0, TCSAFLUSH, &canonbuf) == -1) { + perror("clef setting parent terminal to canonical processing"); + exit(0); + } + + /* initialize some flags I will be using */ + MODE = CLEFCANONICAL; + INS_MODE = 1; + Cursor_shape(2); +} + + +void +#ifdef _NO_PROTO +hangup_handler(sig) + int sig; +#else +hangup_handler(int sig) +#endif +{ +#ifdef siglog + sigfile = open(sigbuff, O_RDWR | O_APPEND); + write(sigfile, "Hangup Handler\n", strlen("Hangup Handler\n")); + close(sigfile); +#endif + /* try to kill my child if it is around */ + if(kill(child_pid, 0)) kill(child_pid, SIGTERM); + if(kill(ppid, 0) >= 0) { + /* fix the terminal and exit */ + if(tcsetattr(0, TCSAFLUSH, &oldbuf) == -1) { + perror("clef restoring terminal in hangup handler"); + } + printf("\n"); + } + /* remove the temporary editor filename */ + unlink(editorfilename); + exit(-1); +} + +void +#ifdef _NO_PROTO +terminate_handler(sig) + int sig; +#else +terminate_handler(int sig) +#endif +{ +#ifdef siglog + sigfile = open(sigbuff, O_RDWR | O_APPEND); + write(sigfile, "Terminate Handler\n", strlen("Terminate Handler\n") + 1); + close(sigfile); + sleep(1); +#endif + kill(child_pid, SIGTERM); + /* fix the terminal, and exit */ + if(tcsetattr(0, TCSAFLUSH, &oldbuf) == -1) { + perror("clef restoring terminal in terminate handler"); + } + printf("\n"); + Cursor_shape(2); + fprintf(stderr, "\n"); + /* remove the temporary editor filename */ + unlink(editorfilename); + exit(0); +} + +void +#ifdef _NO_PROTO +interrupt_handler(sig) + int sig; +#else +interrupt_handler(int sig) +#endif +{ +#ifdef siglog + sigfile = open(sigbuff, O_RDWR | O_APPEND); + write(sigfile, "Interrupt Handler\n", strlen("Interrupt Handler\n") + 1); + close(sigfile); + sleep(1); +#endif + kill(child_pid, SIGINT); +} + +void +#ifdef _NO_PROTO +child_handler(sig) + int sig; +#else +child_handler(int sig) +#endif +{ +#ifdef siglog + sigfile = open(sigbuff, O_RDWR | O_APPEND ); + write(sigfile, "Child Handler\n", strlen("Child Handler\n") + 1); + close(sigfile); +#endif + Cursor_shape(2); + close(contNum); + if(kill(ppid, 0) >= 0) { + /* fix the terminal, and exit */ + if(tcsetattr(0, TCSAFLUSH, &oldbuf) == -1) { + perror("clef restoring terminal in child handler"); + } + printf("\n"); + } + /* remove the temporary editor filename */ + unlink(editorfilename); + exit(0); +} + +void +#ifdef _NO_PROTO +alarm_handler(sig) + int sig; +#else +alarm_handler(int sig) +#endif +{ + int newppid = getppid(); +#ifdef siglog + sigfile = open(sigbuff, O_RDWR | O_APPEND); + write(sigfile, "Alarm Handler\n", strlen("Alarm Handler\n")+ 1 ); + close(sigfile); +#endif + /* simply gets the parent process id, if different, it terminates , + otherwise it resets the alarm */ + + if(ppid == newppid) { + alarm(60); + return; + } + else { + /* once that is done fix the terminal, and exit */ + if(tcsetattr(0, TCSAFLUSH, &oldbuf) == -1) { + perror("clef restoring terminal in alarm handler"); + } + Cursor_shape(2); + fprintf(stderr, "\n"); + /* remove the temporary editor filename */ + unlink(editorfilename); + exit(0); + } +} + +/* a procedure which tells my parent how to catch signals from its children */ +void +#ifdef _NO_PROTO +catch_signals() +#else +catch_signals(void) +#endif +{ +#ifdef siglog + sprintf(sigbuff, "/tmp/csig%d", getpid()); + sigfile = open(sigbuff, O_RDWR | O_TRUNC | O_CREAT); + write(sigfile, "Started \n", strlen("Started \n")); + close(sigfile); +#endif + bsdSignal(SIGHUP, hangup_handler,RestartSystemCalls); + bsdSignal(SIGCHLD,child_handler,RestartSystemCalls); + bsdSignal(SIGTERM, terminate_handler,RestartSystemCalls); + bsdSignal(SIGINT, interrupt_handler,RestartSystemCalls); + bsdSignal(SIGALRM, alarm_handler,RestartSystemCalls); + alarm(60); +} + +/* Here is where I check the child's termio settings, and try to copy them. + I simply trace through the main modes (CLEFRAW, CLEFCANONICAL) and + try to simulate them */ +void +#ifdef _NO_PROTO +check_flip() +#else +check_flip(void) +#endif +{ + return; + +#if 0 + /*simply checks the termio structure of the child */ + + if(tcgetattr(contNum, &childbuf) == -1) { + perror("clef parent getting child's terminal in check_termio"); + } + if(childbuf.c_lflag & ICANON) { + if(MODE != CLEFCANONICAL) { + flip_canonical(contNum); + MODE = CLEFCANONICAL; + } + } + else { + if(MODE != CLEFRAW) { + flip_raw(contNum); + MODE = CLEFRAW; + } + } + /* While I am here, lets set the echo */ + if(childbuf.c_lflag & ECHO) ECHOIT = 1; + else ECHOIT = 0; +#endif +} + + + +void +#ifdef _NO_PROTO +flip_raw(chann) + int chann; +#else +flip_raw(int chann) +#endif +{ + + if(MODE == CLEFCANONICAL) + send_buff_to_child(chann); + + if(tcsetattr(0, TCSAFLUSH, &rawbuf) == -1) { + perror("clef resetting parent to raw "); + exit(-1); + } +} + + +void +#ifdef _NO_PROTO +flip_canonical(chann) + int chann; +#else +flip_canonical(int chann) +#endif +{ + if(tcsetattr(0, TCSAFLUSH, &canonbuf) == -1) { + perror("clef resetting parent to canonical "); + exit(-1); + } + if(INS_MODE) + Cursor_shape(5); + else + Cursor_shape(2); +} + +void +#ifdef _NO_PROTO +etc_get_next_line(line, nr, fd) + char *line; + int *nr; + int fd; +#else +etc_get_next_line(char * line,int * nr,int fd) +#endif +{ + *nr = read(fd, line, 1024); + if(*nr == -1) { + perror("Reading /etc/master"); + } + if(*nr == 0) { + fprintf(stderr, "Not found \n"); + } +} + +#define etc_whitespace(c) ((c == ' ' || c == '\t')?(1):(0)) + + +void +#ifdef _NO_PROTO +set_function_chars() +#else +set_function_chars(void) +#endif +{ + /* get the special characters */ + _INTR = childbuf.c_cc[VINTR]; + _QUIT = childbuf.c_cc[VQUIT]; + _ERASE = childbuf.c_cc[VERASE]; + _KILL = childbuf.c_cc[VKILL]; + _EOF = childbuf.c_cc[VEOF]; + _EOL = childbuf.c_cc[VEOL]; + return; +} + + + +From bill.page1@sympatico.ca Thu Nov 07 09:07:03 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 189nJH-0000fV-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 07 Nov 2002 09:07:03 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 189nJD-0000et-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 07 Nov 2002 09:07:02 -0500 +Received: from tomts6.bellnexxia.net ([209.226.175.26] helo=tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 189nJB-0000c0-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 07 Nov 2002 09:06:58 -0500 +Received: from Asus ([216.209.138.133]) by tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net + (InterMail vM.5.01.04.19 201-253-122-122-119-20020516) with ESMTP + id <20021107140646.ZAMY7208.tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net@Asus>; + Thu, 7 Nov 2002 09:06:46 -0500 +From: "Bill Page" +To: +Cc: +Subject: RE: [Axiom-developer] AIM Instant Message +Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 09:06:41 -0500 +Message-ID: <000d01c28666$e7755dd0$6501a8c0@Asus> +MIME-Version: 1.0 +Content-Type: text/plain; + charset="US-ASCII" +Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit +X-Priority: 3 (Normal) +X-MSMail-Priority: Normal +X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4024 +X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 +Importance: Normal +In-Reply-To: <20021106175241.LYXK1531.tomts17-srv.bellnexxia.net@[209.226.175.22]> +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Tim, + +On Wednesday, November 06, 2002 12:53 PM I wrote: +> +> I have the Windows instant messaging thing installed at +> home and it is supposed to be AOL compatible. + +Ooops, that's wrong. It is not compatible. Silly me. + +I will get AIM installed later today and see if we +can make it work. + +Bill. + + + + +From bill.page1@sympatico.ca Thu Nov 07 09:50:15 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 189nz5-00036d-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 07 Nov 2002 09:50:15 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 189nyz-00035r-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 07 Nov 2002 09:50:13 -0500 +Received: from tomts5.bellnexxia.net ([209.226.175.25] helo=tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.net) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 189nyy-00035Q-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 07 Nov 2002 09:50:09 -0500 +Received: from Asus ([216.209.138.133]) by tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.net + (InterMail vM.5.01.04.19 201-253-122-122-119-20020516) with ESMTP + id <20021107145003.GXLY2670.tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.net@Asus>; + Thu, 7 Nov 2002 09:50:03 -0500 +From: "Bill Page" +To: +Cc: +Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 09:50:00 -0500 +Message-ID: <000f01c2866c$f3adf890$6501a8c0@Asus> +MIME-Version: 1.0 +Content-Type: text/plain; + charset="US-ASCII" +Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit +X-Priority: 3 (Normal) +X-MSMail-Priority: Normal +X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4024 +X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 +Importance: Normal +In-Reply-To: <4272-2002-1106-122539-2531@tofep12.bellnexxia.net> +Subject: [Axiom-developer] CVS access +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Tim, + +Ok I have successfully checked out the axiom module from +the CVS repository using the instructions at + + https://savannah.nongnu.org/cvs/?group=axiom + +Working from home, I do not have a "fascist firewall" to +worry about. So the anonymous access via :pserver: worked +fine the first time. The commands I used under the Cygwin +bash shell were: + +------------ + +$ cvs -d:pserver:anoncvs@subversions.gnu.org:/cvsroot/axiom login +(Logging in to anoncvs@subversions.gnu.org) +CVS password: + +Administrator@ASUS ~ +$ cvs -z3 -d:pserver:anoncvs@subversions.gnu.org:/cvsroot/axiom co axiom +cvs server: Updating axiom +cvs server: Updating axiom/license +U axiom/license/LICENSE.AXIOM +U axiom/license/LICENSE.BULL +U axiom/license/LICENSE.CCL +U axiom/license/LICENSE.EAY +U axiom/license/LICENSE.FSF +U axiom/license/LICENSE.NOWEB +U axiom/license/LICENSE.RAND +U axiom/license/LICENSE.SMC + +------------- + +"Developer CVS Access via SSH" was not necessary in order +to checkout the files. But I have generated another rsa1 +key for my machine here at home and added to my account +profile at Savannah. In an hour or so (to give Savannah +a chance to update their key database), I will try to do +the checkout again in "developer" mode. + +Regards, +Bill Page. + +On Wednesday, November 06, 2002 12:26 PM I wrote: +> ... +> I have continued to try to access the cvs repository but +> I am unable to get past the password prompt that is +> generated when I do +> +> $ cvs -dbillpage1@subversions.gnu.org:/cvsroot/axiom co axiom +> billpage1@subversions.gnu.org's password: Permission denied, +> please try again. billpage1@subversions.gnu.org's password: +> Permission denied, please try again. +> billpage1@subversions.gnu.org's password: Permission denied. +> cvs [checkout aborted]: end of file from server +> +> The documentation says that I would get this prompt if +> my public key is not being recognized. But I have double +> checked everything and I am quite sure that I have generated +> the rsa1 key properly. I've set protocol 1 in the ssh config +> file and I have uploaded the public key to Savannah (and +> waited the appropriate amount of time). So I don't think +> that's the problem. I also thought that maybe the rather +> strict firewall rules here where I am working might prevent +> an SSH connection, but the network guru's here assure me that +> SSH should be possible - although they warn that almost all +> non-standard port usage is disabled. I know that the +> :pserver: protocol on cvs uses port 2401 which I am quite +> sure is on the disabled list, so that explains why anonymous +> mode also does not work (if you have not done anything else +> to prevent it). +> +> Anyway, tomorrow I will try all this again from the other +> side of the firewall from my other machines at home. +> + + + + +From bill.page1@sympatico.ca Thu Nov 07 11:34:04 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 189pbY-0003tr-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 07 Nov 2002 11:34:04 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 189pa6-0003Nh-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 07 Nov 2002 11:32:39 -0500 +Received: from tomts6.bellnexxia.net ([209.226.175.26] helo=tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 189pa6-0003C0-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 07 Nov 2002 11:32:34 -0500 +Received: from Asus ([216.209.138.133]) by tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net + (InterMail vM.5.01.04.19 201-253-122-122-119-20020516) with ESMTP + id <20021107163224.EIJX7208.tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net@Asus>; + Thu, 7 Nov 2002 11:32:24 -0500 +From: "Bill Page" +To: +Cc: +Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 11:32:21 -0500 +Message-ID: <001001c2867b$3ffb7a20$6501a8c0@Asus> +MIME-Version: 1.0 +Content-Type: text/plain; + charset="US-ASCII" +Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit +X-Priority: 3 (Normal) +X-MSMail-Priority: Normal +X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4024 +X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 +Importance: Normal +In-Reply-To: <20021106175241.LYXK1531.tomts17-srv.bellnexxia.net@[209.226.175.22]> +Subject: [Axiom-developer] NAG demo version of AXIOM - flexlm license? +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Tim, + +It has occurred to me that during our work on the +open source version of AXIOM it would be very nice +to have a previous operational version of AXIOM +available for testing and comparison. To that end +I have installed the Windows PC version of AXIOM +that was sent to me by NAG several years ago. It is +on a Cdrom labelled + + NAG PC/CD Software Collection Edition 5 + PCCD/5 September 1999 + +I am able to install AXIOM successfully under +Windows XP after copying the install directory +to hard disk and setting NT compatibility mode on +the setup program, but when I run AXIOM, it is +looking for a flexlm license.dat file. The demo +arrangement was that you could ask NAG to send you +a license file by email that was valid for 30 days. +Of course I don't have such a file and therefore +AXIOM (or more specifically, "techexpl.exe") refuses +to run. I get a similar message when I try to run +the TTY interface version). + +BTW, what interface is included in the version of +AXIOM with which we will be working? + +Anyway, I was wondering if your relationship with +the people at NAG is "flex"ible enough that it would +be possible to ask someone there for a valid license +file? I understand, of course that NAG no longer +supports AXIOM as a product, but perhaps they are +sympathetic to the open source development project? + +I don't suppose it would be particularly easy (or +legal) to try to hack around the flex license check... +I was thinking that perhaps it would be possible +to find an old or revised version of techexpl.exe that +does not do this license check and would still be +compatible with the rest of AXIOM. Howe ever I am not +sufficiently familiar with how the interface between +techexplorer and AXIOM works (used to work?). There is +apparently a new version of techexplorer available for +IBM which runs as a browser plug-in. I presume that this +new version would not be compatible with AXIOM, right? + +What do you think? + +Bill. + + + + +From miked@nag.co.uk Thu Nov 07 12:15:00 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 189qF9-0001gG-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 07 Nov 2002 12:14:59 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 189qF4-0001ZE-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 07 Nov 2002 12:14:57 -0500 +Received: from mail22.messagelabs.com ([193.109.255.115]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.10) + id 189qF3-0001YG-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 07 Nov 2002 12:14:53 -0500 +X-VirusChecked: Checked +X-Env-Sender: miked@nag.co.uk +X-Msg-Ref: server-17.tower-22.messagelabs.com!1036689291!8585 +Received: (qmail 960 invoked from network); 7 Nov 2002 17:14:51 -0000 +Received: from smtp-4.star.net.uk (212.125.75.73) + by server-17.tower-22.messagelabs.com with SMTP; 7 Nov 2002 17:14:51 -0000 +Received: (qmail 5581 invoked from network); 7 Nov 2002 17:14:49 -0000 +Received: from nagmx1.nag.co.uk (HELO nag.co.uk) (62.231.145.242) + by smtp-4.star.net.uk with SMTP; 7 Nov 2002 17:14:49 -0000 +Received: from brackley.nag.co.uk (brackley.nag.co.uk [192.156.217.21]) + by nag.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA23131; + Thu, 7 Nov 2002 17:14:35 GMT +Received: from nag.co.uk (IDENT:root@trowbridge.nag.co.uk [192.156.217.69]) + by brackley.nag.co.uk (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id gA7HIcJ75619; + Thu, 7 Nov 2002 17:18:38 GMT + (envelope-from miked@nag.co.uk) +Received: (from miked@localhost) + by nag.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA24533; + Thu, 7 Nov 2002 17:13:53 GMT +Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 17:13:53 +0000 +From: Mike Dewar +To: Bill Page +Cc: daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org, Mike Dewar +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] NAG demo version of AXIOM - flexlm license? +Message-ID: <20021107171353.O14445@nag.co.uk> +References: <20021106175241.LYXK1531.tomts17-srv.bellnexxia.net@[209.226.175.22]> <001001c2867b$3ffb7a20$6501a8c0@Asus> +Mime-Version: 1.0 +Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii +X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i +In-Reply-To: <001001c2867b$3ffb7a20$6501a8c0@Asus>; from bill.page1@sympatico.ca on Thu, Nov 07, 2002 at 11:32:21AM -0500 +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Dear Bill, + +I've already supplied Tim with a copy of the last release of Axiom for +this purpose. You won't get anywhere with trying to use other versions +of Techexplorer with that version of Axiom because (a) they are +incompatible, and (b) the license management is also in CCL. + +Techexplorer remains the property of IBM and while we have rights to +parts of it we were explicitly forbidden to allow the use of any of them +with OpenAxiom. The sources we released should allow you to build Axiom +under Windows but only with a fairly basic TTY-style interface. Due to +the complexity of the build process and (until NT 4 came along) the +general flakiness of Windows we always built all the Windows image files +for CCL on Unix, so I'd strongly recommend getting a Linux version +running first before you tackle Windows. + +We are very sympathetic to the Open Source project (we wouldn't have +gone to the considerable time and expense to release the code under an +open license otherwise), however I'm not sure whether we can issue new +licenses for old versons of Axiom since this might breach our "severance +agreement" with IBM. + +Regards, Mike. + + +On Thu, Nov 07, 2002 at 11:32:21AM -0500, Bill Page wrote: +> Tim, +> +> It has occurred to me that during our work on the +> open source version of AXIOM it would be very nice +> to have a previous operational version of AXIOM +> available for testing and comparison. To that end +> I have installed the Windows PC version of AXIOM +> that was sent to me by NAG several years ago. It is +> on a Cdrom labelled +> +> NAG PC/CD Software Collection Edition 5 +> PCCD/5 September 1999 +> +> I am able to install AXIOM successfully under +> Windows XP after copying the install directory +> to hard disk and setting NT compatibility mode on +> the setup program, but when I run AXIOM, it is +> looking for a flexlm license.dat file. The demo +> arrangement was that you could ask NAG to send you +> a license file by email that was valid for 30 days. +> Of course I don't have such a file and therefore +> AXIOM (or more specifically, "techexpl.exe") refuses +> to run. I get a similar message when I try to run +> the TTY interface version). +> +> BTW, what interface is included in the version of +> AXIOM with which we will be working? +> +> Anyway, I was wondering if your relationship with +> the people at NAG is "flex"ible enough that it would +> be possible to ask someone there for a valid license +> file? I understand, of course that NAG no longer +> supports AXIOM as a product, but perhaps they are +> sympathetic to the open source development project? +> +> I don't suppose it would be particularly easy (or +> legal) to try to hack around the flex license check... +> I was thinking that perhaps it would be possible +> to find an old or revised version of techexpl.exe that +> does not do this license check and would still be +> compatible with the rest of AXIOM. Howe ever I am not +> sufficiently familiar with how the interface between +> techexplorer and AXIOM works (used to work?). There is +> apparently a new version of techexplorer available for +> IBM which runs as a browser plug-in. I presume that this +> new version would not be compatible with AXIOM, right? +> +> What do you think? +> +> Bill. +> +> +> +> _______________________________________________ +> Axiom-developer mailing list +> Axiom-developer@nongnu.org +> http://mail.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/axiom-developer +> +> _____________________________________________________________________ +> This message has been checked for all known viruses by Star Internet +> delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Scanning Service. For further +> information visit http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp or alternatively call +> Star Internet for details on the Virus Scanning Service. + +_____________________________________________________________________ +This message has been checked for all known viruses by Star Internet +delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Scanning Service. For further +information visit http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp or alternatively call +Star Internet for details on the Virus Scanning Service. + + + +From bill.page1@sympatico.ca Thu Nov 07 12:56:51 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 189qtf-0001of-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 07 Nov 2002 12:56:51 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 189qtc-0001ny-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 07 Nov 2002 12:56:50 -0500 +Received: from tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net ([209.226.175.34]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 189qtb-0001nh-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 07 Nov 2002 12:56:47 -0500 +Received: from Asus ([216.209.138.133]) by tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net + (InterMail vM.5.01.04.19 201-253-122-122-119-20020516) with ESMTP + id <20021107175645.KIIG2262.tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net@Asus>; + Thu, 7 Nov 2002 12:56:45 -0500 +From: "Bill Page" +To: +Cc: +Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 12:56:42 -0500 +Message-ID: <001201c28687$0860be20$6501a8c0@Asus> +MIME-Version: 1.0 +Content-Type: text/plain; + charset="US-ASCII" +Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit +X-Priority: 3 (Normal) +X-MSMail-Priority: Normal +X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4024 +X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 +Importance: Normal +In-Reply-To: +Subject: [Axiom-developer] RE: CVS access +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Tim, + +On Thursday, November 07, 2002 9:50 AM I wrote: +> ... +> "Developer CVS Access via SSH" was not necessary in order +> to checkout the files. But I have generated another rsa1 +> key for my machine here at home and added to my account +> profile at Savannah. In an hour or so (to give Savannah +> a chance to update their key database), I will try to do +> the checkout again in "developer" mode. +> + +I still can't seem to get "developer CVS access" to work +at Savannah. Although I have generated an rsa1 key and +registered the public key in my Savannah account, I still +get the following results: + +--------------- + +$ cvs -z3 -dbillpage1@subversions.gnu.org:/cvsroot/axiom co axiom +billpage1@subversions.gnu.org's password: +Permission denied, please try again. +billpage1@subversions.gnu.org's password: +Permission denied, please try again. +billpage1@subversions.gnu.org's password: +Permission denied (publickey,password,keyboard-interactive). +cvs [checkout aborted]: end of file from server (consult above messages +if any) + +-------------- + +Note: The documentation says that I would only be asked +for a password if the authentication fails, but if I do +try to enter a password anyway, after three failed +attempts I don't always get the full + + Permission denied (publickey,password,keyboard-interactive). + +message. Sometimes it just says + + Permission denied. + +I am beginning to wonder whether this mode works only +if one is also registered as a "developer" for the +project. You explained earlier why at this time only +you are registered as a developer. + +Regards, +Bill. + + + + +From daly@idsi.net Thu Nov 07 16:36:12 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 189uJw-0001mI-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 07 Nov 2002 16:36:12 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 189uJt-0001ja-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 07 Nov 2002 16:36:11 -0500 +Received: from falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.74]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 189uJs-0001hc-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 07 Nov 2002 16:36:09 -0500 +Received: from dialup-65.58.187.137.dial1.stamford1.level3.net ([65.58.187.137] helo=localhost.localdomain) + by falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) + id 189uJp-0001wn-00; Thu, 07 Nov 2002 13:36:06 -0800 +Received: (from root@localhost) + by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.6) id gA7LFTS24456; + Thu, 7 Nov 2002 16:15:29 -0500 +Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 16:15:29 -0500 +Message-Id: <200211072115.gA7LFTS24456@localhost.localdomain> +From: root +To: acn1@cam.ac.uk +CC: daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Reply-to: daly@idsi.net +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: posting CCL +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Arthur, + +Sorry about that. I collected the licenses from the source code. I'm +not sure why the license text differs but I must have made a mistake +somewhere. I've been using the distribution from the website you gave +me not the distribution from nag, as requested. I'll modify the +LICENSE.CCL file that is posted. I have no intention of changing any +licenses in any way. I'm working on the code on a different CVS site +so I can make my mistakes in private and, hopefully, minimize these +issues. Let me know if you see anything else that you'd like me to +change and I'll try to fix it. + +Tim + +----------------- attached file --------------------------------- + +I observe on the Savannah/Axiom web-site that you have posted some +licenses and expect to put CCL there soon. May I requeat that you check +the license that I have released CCL under and do not publish a confusing +file called LICENSE.CCL that differs from it, and that you do not put CCL +files on savannah until this has been checked. Sorry to be a pain! It is +good that things are moving forward. + +The only CCL files I have put in a deliberate public place are on +www.codemist.co.uk. CCL files you got via NAG are not intended (certainly +by me) to fall under any license that NAG applies to parts of Axiom that +it itself releases. What follows is the license file that I include in the +distribution on www.codemist.co.uk... + +=============================================================================== + + CCL Public License 1.0 + ====================== + + +Copyright (C) 2002, Codemist Ltd. All rights reserved. +acn@codemist.co.uk + + +Redistribution and use in source and binary forms, with or without +modification, are permitted provided that the following conditions +are met: + +(1) Redistributions of source code must retain the above copyright notice, +this list of conditions and the following disclaimer. + +(2) Redistributions in binary form must reproduce the above copyright +notice, +this list of conditions and the following disclaimer in the documentation +and/or other materials provided with the distribution. + +(3) Neither the name of Codemist nor the names of other contributors may +be used to endorse or promote products derived from this software without +specific prior written permission. + +(4) If you distribute a modified form or either source or binary code + (a) you must make the source form of these modification available + to Codemist; + (b) you grant Codemist a royalty-free license to use, modify + or redistribute your modifications without limitation; + (c) you represent that you are legally entitled to grant these rights + and that you are not providing Codemist with any code that violates + any law or breaches any contract. + +THIS SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED BY THE COPYRIGHT HOLDERS AND CONTRIBUTORS +"AS IS" AND ANY EXPRESS OR IMPLIED WARRANTIES, INCLUDING, BUT NOT +LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS +FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE ARE DISCLAIMED. IN NO EVENT SHALL THE COPYRIGHT +OWNER OR CONTRIBUTORS BE LIABLE FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, +SPECIAL, EXEMPLARY, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES (INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED +TO, PROCUREMENT OF SUBSTITUTE GOODS OR SERVICES; LOSS OF USE, DATA, OR +PROFITS; OR BUSINESS INTERRUPTION) HOWEVER CAUSED AND ON ANY THEORY OF +LIABILITY, WHETHER IN CONTRACT, STRICT LIABILITY, OR TORT (INCLUDING +NEGLIGENCE OR OTHERWISE) ARISING IN ANY WAY OUT OF THE USE OF THIS +SOFTWARE, EVEN IF ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGE. + +======================================================================== + + + +From daly@idsi.net Thu Nov 07 17:43:23 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 189vMw-0005ou-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 07 Nov 2002 17:43:22 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 189vMt-0005ms-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 07 Nov 2002 17:43:20 -0500 +Received: from gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.84]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 189vMs-0005ku-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 07 Nov 2002 17:43:18 -0500 +Received: from dialup-65.58.187.137.dial1.stamford1.level3.net ([65.58.187.137] helo=localhost.localdomain) + by gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) + id 189vMk-0001xp-00; Thu, 07 Nov 2002 14:43:11 -0800 +Received: (from root@localhost) + by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.6) id gA7MMY624550; + Thu, 7 Nov 2002 17:22:34 -0500 +Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 17:22:34 -0500 +Message-Id: <200211072222.gA7MMY624550@localhost.localdomain> +From: root +To: daly@idsi.net +CC: acn1@cam.ac.uk, daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Re: posting CCL +Reply-to: daly@idsi.net +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +The CVS tree has been updated with your change. -- Tim + + + +From daly@idsi.net Thu Nov 07 18:24:11 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 189w0Q-0007gD-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 07 Nov 2002 18:24:10 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 189w0P-0007fx-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 07 Nov 2002 18:24:10 -0500 +Received: from avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.50]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 189w0O-0007fi-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 07 Nov 2002 18:24:08 -0500 +Received: from dialup-65.58.187.137.dial1.stamford1.level3.net ([65.58.187.137] helo=localhost.localdomain) + by avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) + id 189w0M-0003OC-00; Thu, 07 Nov 2002 15:24:06 -0800 +Received: (from root@localhost) + by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.6) id gA7N3UJ24575; + Thu, 7 Nov 2002 18:03:30 -0500 +Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 18:03:30 -0500 +Message-Id: <200211072303.gA7N3UJ24575@localhost.localdomain> +From: root +To: bill.page1@sympatico.ca +CC: daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +In-reply-to: <001201c28687$0860be20$6501a8c0@Asus> (bill.page1@sympatico.ca) +Reply-to: daly@idsi.net +References: <001201c28687$0860be20$6501a8c0@Asus> +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: CVS access +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Bill, + +The problem is likely that you are not using ssh to do the +connection since the CVS_RSH is not set. If it is not set +I believe that CVS defaults to using RSH and will ask you +to log in. You don't need a login and only need to be a +developer to have write access. I tried checking out the +code as anonymous and it worked. + +Tim + + + +From daly@idsi.net Thu Nov 07 18:22:06 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 189vyQ-0006kG-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 07 Nov 2002 18:22:06 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 189vyN-0006iS-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 07 Nov 2002 18:22:05 -0500 +Received: from scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.49]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 189vyM-0006hA-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 07 Nov 2002 18:22:02 -0500 +Received: from dialup-65.58.187.137.dial1.stamford1.level3.net ([65.58.187.137] helo=localhost.localdomain) + by scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) + id 189vyJ-0001eY-00; Thu, 07 Nov 2002 15:21:59 -0800 +Received: (from root@localhost) + by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.6) id gA7N1NR24567; + Thu, 7 Nov 2002 18:01:23 -0500 +Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 18:01:23 -0500 +Message-Id: <200211072301.gA7N1NR24567@localhost.localdomain> +From: root +To: bill.page1@sympatico.ca +CC: daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +In-reply-to: <001201c28687$0860be20$6501a8c0@Asus> (bill.page1@sympatico.ca) +Reply-to: daly@idsi.net +References: <001201c28687$0860be20$6501a8c0@Asus> +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: CVS access +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Bill, + +Check that your shell variable CVS_RSH is set to "ssh". + +Tim + + + +From daly@idsi.net Thu Nov 07 18:40:56 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 189wGe-00016X-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 07 Nov 2002 18:40:56 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 189wGc-00016J-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 07 Nov 2002 18:40:55 -0500 +Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.122]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 189wGc-00016D-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 07 Nov 2002 18:40:54 -0500 +Received: from dialup-65.58.187.137.dial1.stamford1.level3.net ([65.58.187.137] helo=localhost.localdomain) + by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) + id 189wGa-000425-00; Thu, 07 Nov 2002 15:40:52 -0800 +Received: (from root@localhost) + by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.6) id gA7NKGK24591; + Thu, 7 Nov 2002 18:20:16 -0500 +Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 18:20:16 -0500 +Message-Id: <200211072320.gA7NKGK24591@localhost.localdomain> +From: root +To: bill.page1@sympatico.ca +CC: daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +In-reply-to: <001001c2867b$3ffb7a20$6501a8c0@Asus> (bill.page1@sympatico.ca) +Reply-to: daly@idsi.net +References: <001001c2867b$3ffb7a20$6501a8c0@Asus> +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: NAG demo version of AXIOM - flexlm license? +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Bill, + +I helped install the flexlm hooks into Axiom when it was first +delivered so I'm well aware of how it works. The technical +aspects are not at issue. + +However, I have an agreement with NAG where they have asked +me not to distribute their version of Axiom. While I don't agree +with all the lawyers who have taken over programming I have to +say that NAG's been very cooperative and helpful. I see every +reason to do anything they ask. + +The down side, as you point out, is that developers other than +myself will not have a reference version of the system. However +this will change once we get a clean system build and the NAG +version will quickly become out of date. Thus the issue will be +gone in the near term. Until then it will be up to me to check +the resulting code against the NAG version. + +All I can counsel is patience. + +Tim + + + + + +From daly@idsi.net Thu Nov 07 18:48:18 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 189wNl-0006cD-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 07 Nov 2002 18:48:17 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 189wNj-0006Zw-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 07 Nov 2002 18:48:16 -0500 +Received: from snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.62]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 189wNi-0006Zs-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 07 Nov 2002 18:48:14 -0500 +Received: from dialup-65.58.187.137.dial1.stamford1.level3.net ([65.58.187.137] helo=localhost.localdomain) + by snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) + id 189wNg-0004TL-00; Thu, 07 Nov 2002 15:48:12 -0800 +Received: (from root@localhost) + by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.6) id gA7NRal24609; + Thu, 7 Nov 2002 18:27:36 -0500 +Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 18:27:36 -0500 +Message-Id: <200211072327.gA7NRal24609@localhost.localdomain> +From: root +To: bill.page1@sympatico.ca +CC: daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +In-reply-to: <000f01c2866c$f3adf890$6501a8c0@Asus> (bill.page1@sympatico.ca) +Reply-to: daly@idsi.net +References: <000f01c2866c$f3adf890$6501a8c0@Asus> +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: CVS access +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Sigh. Actually, I was mistaken in my anonymous test which is unrelated +to the CVS_RSH shell variable. However, setting this variable should +cure the problem. If not, let me know. + +Tim + + + +From bill.page1@sympatico.ca Thu Nov 07 19:07:55 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 189wgk-0006Hg-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 07 Nov 2002 19:07:54 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 189wgh-0006GA-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 07 Nov 2002 19:07:53 -0500 +Received: from tomts25-srv.bellnexxia.net ([209.226.175.188]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 189wgg-0006FN-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 07 Nov 2002 19:07:50 -0500 +Received: from Asus ([209.226.189.16]) by tomts25-srv.bellnexxia.net + (InterMail vM.5.01.04.19 201-253-122-122-119-20020516) with ESMTP + id <20021108000745.MNCK25566.tomts25-srv.bellnexxia.net@Asus>; + Thu, 7 Nov 2002 19:07:45 -0500 +From: "Bill Page" +To: +Cc: +Subject: RE: [Axiom-developer] Re: NAG demo version of AXIOM - flexlm license? +Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 19:07:44 -0500 +Message-ID: <000101c286ba$dd820540$6501a8c0@Asus> +MIME-Version: 1.0 +Content-Type: text/plain; + charset="us-ascii" +Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit +X-Priority: 3 (Normal) +X-MSMail-Priority: Normal +X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4024 +In-reply-to: <200211072320.gA7NKGK24591@localhost.localdomain> +Importance: Normal +X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Tim, + +On Thursday, November 07, 2002 6:20 PM you wrote: +> ... +> The down side, as you point out, is that developers other +> than myself will not have a reference version of the system. +> However this will change once we get a clean system build and +> the NAG version will quickly become out of date. Thus the +> issue will be gone in the near term. Until then it will be up +> to me to check the resulting code against the NAG version. +> +> All I can counsel is patience. +> + +No problem. I'm just trying to get something interesting +started here on my side. + +And thanks also to Mike Dewar for explaining NAG's view +point. I understand why what I asked might be difficult. +I must say that a do really appreciate all of the efforts +that the people at NAG have made to make the source code +for this new "OpenAxiom" available. Thank you very much +indeed! + +Cheers, +Bill Page. + + + + +From daly@idsi.net Thu Nov 07 19:07:59 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 189wgp-0006Jg-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 07 Nov 2002 19:07:59 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 189wgl-0006I8-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 07 Nov 2002 19:07:57 -0500 +Received: from scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.49]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 189wgk-0006Hb-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 07 Nov 2002 19:07:54 -0500 +Received: from dialup-65.58.187.137.dial1.stamford1.level3.net ([65.58.187.137] helo=localhost.localdomain) + by scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) + id 189wgh-0001Cd-00; Thu, 07 Nov 2002 16:07:52 -0800 +Received: (from root@localhost) + by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.6) id gA7NlFk24677; + Thu, 7 Nov 2002 18:47:15 -0500 +Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 18:47:15 -0500 +Message-Id: <200211072347.gA7NlFk24677@localhost.localdomain> +From: root +To: bill.page1@sympatico.ca +CC: daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +In-reply-to: <000001c286b9$07bfb070$6501a8c0@Asus> (bill.page1@sympatico.ca) +Reply-to: daly@idsi.net +References: <000001c286b9$07bfb070$6501a8c0@Asus> +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: CVS access +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Ummm, that would make no sense so we must be missing something. +Why would an anonymous user be able to check out the source tree +but not the developer? + +I'll create another id and try it from there. + +Tim + + + +From daly@idsi.net Thu Nov 07 19:28:32 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 189x0h-0003WZ-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 07 Nov 2002 19:28:31 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 189x0d-0003V2-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 07 Nov 2002 19:28:29 -0500 +Received: from albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.120] helo=albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 189x0c-0003UG-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 07 Nov 2002 19:28:26 -0500 +Received: from dialup-65.58.187.137.dial1.stamford1.level3.net ([65.58.187.137] helo=localhost.localdomain) + by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) + id 189x0a-0004jQ-00; Thu, 07 Nov 2002 16:28:24 -0800 +Received: (from root@localhost) + by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.6) id gA807kp24747; + Thu, 7 Nov 2002 19:07:46 -0500 +Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 19:07:46 -0500 +Message-Id: <200211080007.gA807kp24747@localhost.localdomain> +From: root +To: bill.page1@sympatico.ca +CC: daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Reply-to: daly@idsi.net +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: CVS access +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +I've created a new userid, new key pair and registered a new key. +I noticed in the process that there is a checkbox on the +"account configuration" page titled "Enable CVS admin commands". +I didn't check that (yet) but that might be related. +In any case, I'll let you know how I solve this. + +Tim + + + +From bill.page1@sympatico.ca Thu Nov 07 18:54:47 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 189wU3-0001f2-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 07 Nov 2002 18:54:47 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 189wTz-0001dv-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 07 Nov 2002 18:54:45 -0500 +Received: from tomts10.bellnexxia.net ([209.226.175.54] helo=tomts10-srv.bellnexxia.net) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 189wTy-0001dk-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 07 Nov 2002 18:54:42 -0500 +Received: from Asus ([209.226.189.16]) by tomts10-srv.bellnexxia.net + (InterMail vM.5.01.04.19 201-253-122-122-119-20020516) with ESMTP + id <20021107235439.KDEW9064.tomts10-srv.bellnexxia.net@Asus>; + Thu, 7 Nov 2002 18:54:39 -0500 +From: "Bill Page" +To: +Cc: +Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 18:54:35 -0500 +Message-ID: <000001c286b9$07bfb070$6501a8c0@Asus> +MIME-Version: 1.0 +Content-Type: text/plain; + charset="us-ascii" +Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit +X-Priority: 3 (Normal) +X-MSMail-Priority: Normal +X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4024 +In-reply-to: <200211072301.gA7N1NR24567@localhost.localdomain> +Importance: Normal +X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 +Subject: [Axiom-developer] RE: CVS access +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Tim, + +On Thursday, November 07, 2002 6:01 PM you wrote: +> +> Check that your shell variable CVS_RSH is set to "ssh". +> + +Yes, I set CVS_RSH to "ssh" as described at + + https://savannah.nongnu.org/cvs/?group=axiom + +> The problem is likely that you are not using ssh to do the +> connection since the CVS_RSH is not set. If it is not set I +> believe that CVS defaults to using RSH and will ask you to +> log in. + +You are right that I get a different error message +if I do not set CVS_RSH to "ssh", however it does +not work when it is set correctly. If I use the +-t trace option on cvs, I can see that it attempts +to use ssh as the following shell output shows + +-------- + +Administrator@ASUS ~ +$ export CVS_RSH=ssh + +Administrator@ASUS ~ +$ cvs -t -dbillpage1@subversions.gnu.org:/cvsroot/axiom co axiom +cvs checkout: notice: main loop with +CVSROOT=billpage1@subversions.gnu.org:/cvsr +oot/axiom + -> Starting server: ssh subversions.gnu.org -l billpage1 cvs server +billpage1@subversions.gnu.org's password: +Permission denied, please try again. +billpage1@subversions.gnu.org's password: +Permission denied, please try again. +billpage1@subversions.gnu.org's password: +Permission denied. +cvs [checkout aborted]: end of file from server (consult above +messages if any) + +Administrator@ASUS ~ +$ + +----------------- + +In fact if I just try to start a secure shell with the +usual command + +$ ssh subversions.gnu.org -l billpage1 cvs server + +I get the same result. + +> You don't need a login and only need to be a +> developer to have write access. I tried checking out +> the code as anonymous and it worked. + +Yes as I said in my earlier message it is possible to +checkout the code as anoncvs via the :pserver: protocol. +In this case no rsa1 key and no ssh is required. This +is described on the Savannah web page I referred to +above. + +It seems to me that the ssh type of secure access +would only be required by someone who is intending +to check code back into the repository and perhaps +the check out function does not work in the case of +using ssh if the user is not also been authorized to +check code in. + +Bill. + + + + + +From daly@idsi.net Thu Nov 07 21:23:22 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 189ynp-0000tg-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 07 Nov 2002 21:23:21 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 189ynj-0000ip-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 07 Nov 2002 21:23:18 -0500 +Received: from gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.84]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 189yni-0000gO-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 07 Nov 2002 21:23:15 -0500 +Received: from dialup-63.215.224.178.dial1.stamford1.level3.net ([63.215.224.178] helo=localhost.localdomain) + by gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) + id 189ymJ-0005yJ-00; Thu, 07 Nov 2002 18:21:48 -0800 +Received: (from root@localhost) + by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.6) id gA8217l25207; + Thu, 7 Nov 2002 21:01:07 -0500 +Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 21:01:07 -0500 +Message-Id: <200211080201.gA8217l25207@localhost.localdomain> +From: root +To: bill.page1@sympatico.ca, miked@nag.co.uk, rubey@labri.fr, + toffin@math.unicaen.fr, axiom-developer@nongnu.org, tim@tenkan.org +Reply-to: daly@idsi.net +Subject: [Axiom-developer] accounts on tenkan +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Please send a note to tim@tenkan.org (no, it is not me) +and tell him your preferred userid and password. He will +set you up with all the necessary things to help develop +Axiom. Tenkan.org is the site where we can "play in the +sandbox" until we work out the coordination issues. + +Tim + + + +From daly@idsi.net Fri Nov 08 07:18:08 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18A85Q-0005Vi-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Fri, 08 Nov 2002 07:18:08 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18A85N-0005VG-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Fri, 08 Nov 2002 07:18:07 -0500 +Received: from gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.84]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18A7vw-0003kS-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Fri, 08 Nov 2002 07:08:20 -0500 +Received: from dialup-65.58.185.236.dial1.stamford1.level3.net ([65.58.185.236] helo=localhost.localdomain) + by gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) + id 18A7vr-0002C2-00; Fri, 08 Nov 2002 04:08:15 -0800 +Received: (from root@localhost) + by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.6) id gA8Blbe26655; + Fri, 8 Nov 2002 06:47:37 -0500 +Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 06:47:37 -0500 +Message-Id: <200211081147.gA8Blbe26655@localhost.localdomain> +From: root +To: bill.page1@sympatico.ca, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Reply-to: daly@idsi.net +Subject: [Axiom-developer] AIM +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +We can't use the AIM client. Somebody broke into my box last night +thru that door. Sigh. + +Tim + + + +From bill.page1@sympatico.ca Fri Nov 08 10:23:58 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18AAzG-000510-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Fri, 08 Nov 2002 10:23:58 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18AAzC-0004zN-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Fri, 08 Nov 2002 10:23:57 -0500 +Received: from tomts6.bellnexxia.net ([209.226.175.26] helo=tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18AAzB-0004xz-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Fri, 08 Nov 2002 10:23:53 -0500 +Received: from Asus ([216.208.85.158]) by tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net + (InterMail vM.5.01.04.19 201-253-122-122-119-20020516) with ESMTP + id <20021108152349.INHL3342.tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net@Asus>; + Fri, 8 Nov 2002 10:23:49 -0500 +From: "Bill Page" +To: , + +Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 10:23:44 -0500 +Message-ID: <000001c2873a$d58b14f0$6501a8c0@Asus> +MIME-Version: 1.0 +Content-Type: text/plain; + charset="US-ASCII" +Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit +X-Priority: 3 (Normal) +X-MSMail-Priority: Normal +X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4024 +Importance: Normal +In-Reply-To: <200211081147.gA8Blbe26655@localhost.localdomain> +X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 +Subject: [Axiom-developer] RE: AIM +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Tim, + +Gee, you must live in a rough cyber neighborhood ... +I hope everything is ok. + +Are you running a firewall (iptables with NAT or similar +on Linux)? If not it's not that hard to setup and there +are several very simple "How-To's" available that explain +it quite clearly. I connect to the Internet that way and +share the connection with Windows and a wireless LAN here +at home. + +Bill. + +> -----Original Message----- +> From: root [mailto:daly@idsi.net] +> Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 6:48 AM +> To: bill.page1@sympatico.ca; axiom-developer@nongnu.org +> Subject: AIM +> +> +> We can't use the AIM client. Somebody broke into my box last +> night thru that door. Sigh. +> +> Tim +> + + + + +From daly@idsi.net Mon Nov 11 22:49:34 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18BS3S-0006vZ-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Mon, 11 Nov 2002 22:49:34 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18BS3P-0006to-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Mon, 11 Nov 2002 22:49:33 -0500 +Received: from hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.22]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18BS3P-0006tg-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Mon, 11 Nov 2002 22:49:31 -0500 +Received: from dialup-63.215.234.71.dial1.stamford1.level3.net ([63.215.234.71] helo=localhost.localdomain) + by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) + id 18BS3J-0005tQ-00; Mon, 11 Nov 2002 19:49:25 -0800 +Received: (from root@localhost) + by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.6) id gAC3SiO04984; + Mon, 11 Nov 2002 22:28:44 -0500 +Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 22:28:44 -0500 +Message-Id: <200211120328.gAC3SiO04984@localhost.localdomain> +From: root +To: bill.page1@sympatico.ca +CC: tim@tenkan.org, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Reply-to: daly@idsi.net +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: accounts on tenkan +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +> Hello Tim and Tim, + +tim@tenkan.org is my son. + +> I take it that you are not the same person but somehow +> related? +> +> Thanks for setting up the account. I was able to login +> and to check out files. I did +> +> $ cvs ... co axiom +> +> and I am currently in middle of the process of downloading +> the whole set of project files. It is taking a rather long +> time to download - there are some BIG files in the zips +> directory. Here are a few initial questions. I'll probably +> have more when the download is done and I've had a change +> to look them over a little better. + +Yes, there are some "serious big files" in zips at the moment. +There are 3 lisp platforms that Axiom is planned to run on, each +of which has advantages: CCL (Codemist Common Lisp), GCL (Gnu +Common Lisp) and CMUCL (Carnegie-Mellon University Common Lisp). +The current Makefile will build CCL from the lsp/ccl subtree and +GCL from the zips directory. The next version (or the one thereafter) +will also build CMUCL. + +> I noticed that the directory structure is a little odd +> +> axiom +> new +> new +> license +> lsp +> src +> zips +> original +> ... +> +> Did you intend to have two subdirectories names new? +> Is there a purpose for the outter most one? + +The axiom/new/new is a mistake but there is no way to delete directories +thru cvs which is why i set up a practice site. The mistake was not +intentional (by definition, I guess). + +The original directory was also a test case and can be ignored. + +> +> BTW, the serious big files in zips seem to be mostly +> Common Lisp stuff? How does that fit in compared to the +> Codemist Lisp? +> +> Finally, where should I start? Will the Makefile.pamphlet +> in the .../lsp/ subdirectory build a working CCL? It still +> looks a little "skinny" in terms of documentation... + +You should read the axiom/new/new/Makefile.dvi file (assuming xdvi +works on your machine. otherwise you might need to convert it to +pdf or ps. give me some feedback on formats). In theory you only +need change to axiom/new/new and type make. save a console trace +and we can fix what fails. + +The Makefile is set up so you can type + make clean +and it will reset you back to the initial conditions. if you +make changes to any files in the source tree they will get +re-expanded when you next type + make +i go to great lengths to cache work so the minimum work +necessary to build a system occurs. However the make clean +will assume you want to start fresh and will destroy everything +(except changes in the src directory). + +You can comment out the build of either ccl or gcl in the +new/lsp/Makefile.pamphlet file (never change the raw Makefile as +it gets rewritten) and the change will happen in the next build. + +Alternatively you can comment out the call in the new/Makefile.pamphlet +(which is the top level Makefile source and it treated as special) +but you need to recreate the Makefile by hand. Building the top level +Makefile will assume that you have the mnt/linux/bin/document command +and the mnt/linux/bin/tex/noweb.sty file. These are automatically +created by the + make +command. Once the first make is done you can make changes in the +new/Makefile.pamphlet file and recreate it by typing: + mnt/linux/bin/document Makefile +(note: not Makefile.pamphlet, just Makefile) + +Except for the top level Makefile every other change to the system +should happen magically by typing make in the axiom/new/new directory. +If it doesn't let me know and I'll fix it. The Makefile.pamphlet tree +is supposed to document and automate all of the knowledge necessary +to build a system from scratch. + +To test the result you can do: + cd mnt/linux/bin + echo "(+ 2 2)" | ./ccl + echo "(+ 2 2)" | ./gcl + +The correct answer is left up to the student but whatever it is +they should be = (but not eq). + +> +> On my side: I've spent some of my spare time today trying +> to build a working version of TeXmacs under Cygwin. It is +> supposed to be posssible but still in "testing" mode +> according to their web site, but very few details were +> provided. So far no success. I've connected to their email +> list for further help. + +As for TeXmacs just send a message to Joris van der Hoeven. He's +exceptional at responding (vdhoeven@texmacs.org). Andrey G. Grozin + is also quite responsive. + +> +> Regards, +> Bill Page. + +Tim + + + +From daly@idsi.net Mon Nov 11 23:29:55 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18BSgV-0007qQ-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Mon, 11 Nov 2002 23:29:55 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18BSgS-0007qC-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Mon, 11 Nov 2002 23:29:53 -0500 +Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.122]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18BSgS-0007np-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Mon, 11 Nov 2002 23:29:52 -0500 +Received: from dialup-63.215.234.71.dial1.stamford1.level3.net ([63.215.234.71] helo=localhost.localdomain) + by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) + id 18BSgP-0007Ag-00; Mon, 11 Nov 2002 20:29:49 -0800 +Received: (from root@localhost) + by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.6) id gAC499g05044; + Mon, 11 Nov 2002 23:09:09 -0500 +Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 23:09:09 -0500 +Message-Id: <200211120409.gAC499g05044@localhost.localdomain> +From: root +To: "Bill Page" +Cc: daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Reply-to: daly@idsi.net +Subject: [Axiom-developer] documentation +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Oh, right. I forgot to mention that you can type: + cd axiom/new/new + make document +and it will make the directory structure in the INT +subdirectory mirroring the top level structure: + new + int + lsp + ccl + src + src + lib +... + +Each subdirectory should contain .dvi files which either are a more +complete explanation of the sources or need to be written. There +should be one .dvi file for each .pamphlet file in the lsp and source +trees. + +Tim + + + +From daly@idsi.net Tue Nov 12 21:11:36 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18Bn0C-0004GI-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 12 Nov 2002 21:11:36 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18Bn07-00049N-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 12 Nov 2002 21:11:34 -0500 +Received: from albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.120] helo=albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18Bn06-00047L-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 12 Nov 2002 21:11:30 -0500 +Received: from dialup-65.56.26.132.dial1.stamford1.level3.net ([65.56.26.132] helo=localhost.localdomain) + by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) + id 18Bmzz-0006pd-00; Tue, 12 Nov 2002 18:11:24 -0800 +Received: (from root@localhost) + by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.6) id gAD1ofs06727; + Tue, 12 Nov 2002 20:50:41 -0500 +Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 20:50:41 -0500 +Message-Id: <200211130150.gAD1ofs06727@localhost.localdomain> +From: root +To: bill.page1@sympatico.ca +CC: daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Reply-to: daly@idsi.net +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: first steps +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +well, THAT went poorly :-) + +I guess I should have mentioned that you can change the environment +variables from their default values to your new values. The only +one you should have to change is the SPAD variable. So, assuming +you tried to install axiom in /usr/local try: + + cd /usr/local/axiom + make SPAD=/usr/local/axiom + +You could either eliminate the extra level of new or include it in +the command line. It won't be there in the final system. + +There is a certain catch-22 about using the document command on +the root Makefile. I'll have to give it a bit more thought. + +noweb will generate non-fatal errors (the error 1 ignored message) +This is normal in my setup. I have to figure out why but the build +completes fine with the few errors that do occur. + +The noweb is part of the 'all' stanza but it is only made the first +time. Once the noweb stanza successfully completes you'll find a +file 'noweb' in the top level directory. If this file exists the +Makefile will not attempt to build noweb. This is documented in +the Makefile.pamphlet file. Erasing this file will cause noweb to +be rebuilt. + +If you want you can build noweb yourself and do a + cd /usr/local/axiom + touch noweb +and the Makefile will no longer attempt to build noweb. Of course +you'll have to do the copy of the final commands into the +$SPAD/mnt/linux/bin directory. + +The "console read hang" is due to a syntax error introduced into the +Makefile.pamphlet file in src/Makefile.pamphlet. In order to reduce +the amount of tex-related output the output is redirected to +$SPAD/obj/tmp/trace. Look at this file for the error. Methinks +you must have changed this file. + +Each echoed line from a Makefile stanza has a locally unique number. +You can find problems by looking at the last "Entering directory" +message (which tells you which Makefile will be run) and then +searching the makefile for the unique number. This will tell you +the failing stanza. Search for 'echo' and you should see them. + +Your system build failed because you don't have the Xlib libraries. +You need the following RPMS installed to build the system on RedHat 8.0 +XFree86-devel-4.2.0-72.i386.rpm (for /usr/X11R6/include/X11/Xlib.h) + +Hope this helps. + +Tim + +========================= attached file ========================= + +Tim, + +Here is the result of my first attempt to use your +Makefile.pamphlet. Perhaps I have included more details +below then you need, but I thought I would give you a +flavor of what I am seeing so far. Please let me know +if I should continue like this or be more brief. + +--------- +$ cd /usr/src/axiom/new + +Administrator@CANDIS-SYSADM1 /usr/src/axiom/new +$ ls +CVS Makefile Makefile.dvi Makefile.pamphlet README license lsp src zips + +Administrator@CANDIS-SYSADM1 /usr/src/axiom/new +$ make +3 checking directory structure +4 Environment: SPAD=/home/axiomgnu/new LSP=/home/axiomgnu/new/lsp SRC=/home/axio +mgnu/new/src INT=/home/axiomgnu/new/int OBJ=/home/axiomgnu/new/obj SYS=linux MNT +=/home/axiomgnu/new/mnt ZIPS=/home/axiomgnu/new/zips SPADBIN=/home/axiomgnu/new/ +mnt/linux/bin CC=gcc RANLIB=ranlib CCLBASE=/home/axiomgnu/new/obj/linux/ccl/ccll +isp TMP=/home/axiomgnu/new/obj/tmp +cp: cannot stat `/home/axiomgnu/new/src/scripts/*': No such file or directory +make: *** [rootdirs] Error 1 + +Administrator@CANDIS-SYSADM1 /usr/src/axiom/new +$ + +------------ + +Note first of all that I eliminated the extra level of +/new/new so compared to what I got from cvs + + axiom/new/* --> axiom/* + +Secondly on my system under Cygwin, it is normal to load +new source files in /usr/new, hence the files are in + + /usr/src/axiom + +As the above console trace shows, the make stopped when it +could now find the /home/axiomgnu/new directory pointed to +by the variable SPAD. + +I read the Makefile.dvi (after converting it to a .pdf file) +but did not see any mention of a hard coded directory +name. Anyway, I continued by changing the SPAD= statement +in the Makefile.pamphlet file. But when I tried to use the +command + + document Makefile + +of course my system did not find the document script. +Instead I entered the commands + + notangle -t8 Makefile.pamphlet > Makefile.new + mv Makefile Makefile.old + mv Makefile.new Makefile + +but then the build process aborted during the make of +noweb as shown below + +------------------- + +Administrator@CANDIS-SYSADM1 /usr/src/axiom/new +$ pwd +/usr/src/axiom/new + +Administrator@CANDIS-SYSADM1 /usr/src/axiom/new +$ vi Makefile.pamphlet + +Administrator@CANDIS-SYSADM1 /usr/src/axiom/new +$ notangle -t8 Makefile.pamphlet > Makefile.new + +Administrator@CANDIS-SYSADM1 /usr/src/axiom/new +$ ls -l +total 75 +drwxrwxrwx 2 Administ None 0 Nov 12 19:31 CVS +-rwxrwxrwx 1 Administ None 2850 Nov 6 20:17 Makefile +-rwxrwxrwx 1 Administ None 39176 Nov 6 20:17 Makefile.dvi +-rw-rw-rw- 1 Administ None 2850 Nov 12 19:52 Makefile.new +-rwxrwxrwx 1 Administ None 24812 Nov 12 19:52 Makefile.pamphlet +-rwxrwxrwx 1 Administ None 106 Nov 6 20:17 README +drwxrwxrwx 3 Administ None 4096 Nov 12 19:31 license +drwxrwxrwx 4 Administ None 0 Nov 12 19:31 lsp +drwxrwxrwx 6 Administ None 0 Nov 12 19:31 src +drwxrwxrwx 4 Administ None 0 Nov 12 19:30 zips + +Administrator@CANDIS-SYSADM1 /usr/src/axiom/new +$ mv Makefile Makefile.old + +Administrator@CANDIS-SYSADM1 /usr/src/axiom/new +$ mv Makefile.new Makefile + +Administrator@CANDIS-SYSADM1 /usr/src/axiom/new +$ make +3 checking directory structure +4 Environment: SPAD=/usr/src/axiom/new LSP=/usr/src/axiom/new/lsp SRC=/usr/src/a +xiom/new/src INT=/usr/src/axiom/new/int OBJ=/usr/src/axiom/new/obj SYS=linux MNT +=/usr/src/axiom/new/mnt ZIPS=/usr/src/axiom/new/zips SPADBIN=/usr/src/axiom/new/ +mnt/linux/bin CC=gcc RANLIB=ranlib CCLBASE=/usr/src/axiom/new/obj/linux/ccl/ccll +isp TMP=/usr/src/axiom/new/obj/tmp +5 making noweb +make[1]: [install-shell] Error 1 (ignored) +make[1]: [install-code] Error 1 (ignored) +strip: c/nt: No such file or directory +strip: c/markup: No such file or directory +strip: c/mnt: No such file or directory +strip: c/finduses: No such file or directory +make[1]: *** [install-code] Error 1 +make: *** [noweb] Error 2 + +Administrator@CANDIS-SYSADM1 /usr/src/axiom/new +$ + +------------------- + +I wonder whether the make of noweb should be included in +the 'all' stanza. I removed it from Makefile.pamphlet and +then tried again but it stopped apparently waiting for +input from the console ... strange. + +--------------- + +Administrator@CANDIS-SYSADM1 /usr/src/axiom/new +$ vi Makefile.pamphlet + +Administrator@CANDIS-SYSADM1 /usr/src/axiom/new +$ notangle -t8 Makefile.pamphlet > Makefile.new + +Administrator@CANDIS-SYSADM1 /usr/src/axiom/new +$ mv Makefile.new Makefile + +Administrator@CANDIS-SYSADM1 /usr/src/axiom/new +$ make +3 checking directory structure +4 Environment: SPAD=/usr/src/axiom/new LSP=/usr/src/axiom/new/lsp SRC=/usr/src/a +xiom/new/src INT=/usr/src/axiom/new/int OBJ=/usr/src/axiom/new/obj SYS=linux MNT +=/usr/src/axiom/new/mnt ZIPS=/usr/src/axiom/new/zips SPADBIN=/usr/src/axiom/new/ +mnt/linux/bin CC=gcc RANLIB=ranlib CCLBASE=/usr/src/axiom/new/obj/linux/ccl/ccll +isp TMP=/usr/src/axiom/new/obj/tmp +8 making /usr/src/axiom/new/src/Makefile from /usr/src/axiom/new/src/Makefile.pa +mphlet + +------------- + +Pressing control-D several times (means end of file on +unix), seemed to allow the build process to continue but +it eventually failed again + +---------- + +7 making /usr/src/axiom/new/src +make[1]: Entering directory `/usr/src/axiom/new/src' +3 making /usr/src/axiom/new/src/scripts/Makefile from /usr/src/axiom/new/src/scr +ipts/Makefile.pamphlet +2 making /usr/src/axiom/new/src/scripts +make[2]: Entering directory `/usr/src/axiom/new/src/scripts' +1 making /usr/src/axiom/new/src/scripts +make[2]: Leaving directory `/usr/src/axiom/new/src/scripts' +7 making /usr/src/axiom/new/src/lib/Makefile from /usr/src/axiom/new/src/lib/Mak +efile.pamphlet +6 making /usr/src/axiom/new/src/lib +make[2]: Entering directory `/usr/src/axiom/new/src/lib' +2 making /usr/src/axiom/new/int/lib/bsdsignal.c from /usr/src/axiom/new/src/lib/ +bsdsignal.c.pamphlet +3 making /usr/src/axiom/new/obj/linux/lib/bsdsignal.o from /usr/src/axiom/new/in +t/lib/bsdsignal.c +8 making /usr/src/axiom/new/int/lib/cursor.c from /usr/src/axiom/new/src/lib/cur +sor.c.pamphlet +9 making /usr/src/axiom/new/obj/linux/lib/cursor.o from /usr/src/axiom/new/int/l +ib/cursor.c +11 making /usr/src/axiom/new/int/lib/edin.c from /usr/src/axiom/new/src/lib/edin +.c.pamphlet +12 making /usr/src/axiom/new/obj/linux/lib/edin.o from /usr/src/axiom/new/int/li +b/edin.c +14 making /usr/src/axiom/new/int/lib/fnct_key.c from /usr/src/axiom/new/src/lib/ +fnct_key.c.pamphlet +15 making /usr/src/axiom/new/obj/linux/lib/fnct_key.o from /usr/src/axiom/new/in +t/lib/fnct_key.c +17 making /usr/src/axiom/new/int/lib/halloc.c from /usr/src/axiom/new/src/lib/ha +lloc.c.pamphlet +18 making /usr/src/axiom/new/obj/linux/lib/halloc.o from /usr/src/axiom/new/int/ +lib/halloc.c +20 making /usr/src/axiom/new/int/lib/openpty.c from /usr/src/axiom/new/src/lib/o +penpty.c.pamphlet +21 making /usr/src/axiom/new/obj/linux/lib/openpty.o from /usr/src/axiom/new/int +/lib/openpty.c +23 making /usr/src/axiom/new/int/lib/pixmap.c from /usr/src/axiom/new/src/lib/pi +xmap.c.pamphlet +24 making /usr/src/axiom/new/obj/linux/lib/pixmap.o from /usr/src/axiom/new/int/ +lib/pixmap.c +/usr/src/axiom/new/int/lib/pixmap.c:5:22: X11/Xlib.h: No such file or directory +/usr/src/axiom/new/int/lib/pixmap.c:6:23: X11/Xutil.h: No such file or directory + +/usr/src/axiom/new/int/lib/pixmap.c:7:21: X11/Xos.h: No such file or directory +In file included from /usr/src/axiom/new/int/lib/pixmap.c:17: +/usr/src/axiom/new/src/include/spadcolors.h:3:19: X11/X.h: No such file or direc +tory +In file included from /usr/src/axiom/new/int/lib/pixmap.c:17: +/usr/src/axiom/new/src/include/spadcolors.h:27: parse error before "colorMap" +/usr/src/axiom/new/src/include/spadcolors.h:27: warning: data definition has no +type or storage class +In file included from /usr/src/axiom/new/int/lib/pixmap.c:19: +/usr/src/axiom/new/src/include/pixmap.H1:9: parse error before '*' token +/usr/src/axiom/new/src/include/pixmap.H1:10: parse error before '*' token +In file included from /usr/src/axiom/new/int/lib/pixmap.c:21: +/usr/src/axiom/new/src/include/spadcolors.H1:15: parse error before '*' token +/usr/src/axiom/new/src/include/spadcolors.H1:16: parse error before '*' token +/usr/src/axiom/new/src/include/spadcolors.H1:17: parse error before '*' token +/usr/src/axiom/new/src/include/spadcolors.H1:19: parse error before '*' token +/usr/src/axiom/new/src/include/spadcolors.H1:20: parse error before '*' token +In file included from /usr/src/axiom/new/int/lib/pixmap.c:260: +/usr/src/axiom/new/src/include/xpm.h:45:23: X11/Xlib.h: No such file or director +y +/usr/src/axiom/new/src/include/xpm.h:46:24: X11/Xutil.h: No such file or directo +ry +In file included from /usr/src/axiom/new/int/lib/pixmap.c:260: +/usr/src/axiom/new/src/include/xpm.h:121: parse error before '*' token +/usr/src/axiom/new/src/include/xpm.h:131: parse error before '*' token +/usr/src/axiom/new/src/include/xpm.h:143: parse error before "Visual" +/usr/src/axiom/new/src/include/xpm.h:143: warning: no semicolon at end of struct + or union +/usr/src/axiom/new/src/include/xpm.h:144: warning: data definition has no type o +r storage class +/usr/src/axiom/new/src/include/xpm.h:175: parse error before "exactColors" +/usr/src/axiom/new/src/include/xpm.h:175: warning: data definition has no type o +r storage class +/usr/src/axiom/new/src/include/xpm.h:184: parse error before "nalloc_pixels" +/usr/src/axiom/new/src/include/xpm.h:184: warning: data definition has no type o +r storage class +/usr/src/axiom/new/src/include/xpm.h:187: parse error before "alloc_close_colors +" +/usr/src/axiom/new/src/include/xpm.h:187: warning: data definition has no type o +r storage class +/usr/src/axiom/new/src/include/xpm.h:199: parse error before '}' token +/usr/src/axiom/new/src/include/xpm.h:199: warning: data definition has no type o +r storage class +/usr/src/axiom/new/src/include/xpm.h:285: parse error before '*' token +/usr/src/axiom/new/src/include/xpm.h:291: parse error before '*' token +/usr/src/axiom/new/src/include/xpm.h:298: parse error before '*' token +/usr/src/axiom/new/src/include/xpm.h:304: parse error before '*' token +/usr/src/axiom/new/src/include/xpm.h:311: parse error before '*' token +/usr/src/axiom/new/src/include/xpm.h:317: parse error before '*' token +/usr/src/axiom/new/src/include/xpm.h:323: parse error before '*' token +/usr/src/axiom/new/src/include/xpm.h:329: parse error before '*' token +/usr/src/axiom/new/src/include/xpm.h:335: parse error before '*' token +/usr/src/axiom/new/src/include/xpm.h:342: parse error before '*' token +/usr/src/axiom/new/src/include/xpm.h:348: parse error before '*' token +/usr/src/axiom/new/src/include/xpm.h:354: parse error before '*' token +/usr/src/axiom/new/src/include/xpm.h:363: parse error before '*' token +/usr/src/axiom/new/src/include/xpm.h:386: parse error before '*' token +/usr/src/axiom/new/src/include/xpm.h:392: parse error before '*' token +/usr/src/axiom/new/src/include/xpm.h:398: parse error before '*' token +/usr/src/axiom/new/src/include/xpm.h:404: parse error before '*' token +/usr/src/axiom/new/int/lib/pixmap.c:271: parse error before '*' token +/usr/src/axiom/new/int/lib/pixmap.c: In function `read_pixmap_file': +/usr/src/axiom/new/int/lib/pixmap.c:274: parse error before "attr" +/usr/src/axiom/new/int/lib/pixmap.c:275: `XImage' undeclared (first use in this +function) +/usr/src/axiom/new/int/lib/pixmap.c:275: (Each undeclared identifier is reported + only once +/usr/src/axiom/new/int/lib/pixmap.c:275: for each function it appears in.) +/usr/src/axiom/new/int/lib/pixmap.c:275: `xireturn' undeclared (first use in thi +s function) +/usr/src/axiom/new/int/lib/pixmap.c:278: `attr' undeclared (first use in this fu +nction) +/usr/src/axiom/new/int/lib/pixmap.c:280: `ZPixmap' undeclared (first use in this + function) +/usr/src/axiom/new/int/lib/pixmap.c:286: `False' undeclared (first use in this f +unction) +/usr/src/axiom/new/int/lib/pixmap.c:294: `display' undeclared (first use in this + function) +/usr/src/axiom/new/int/lib/pixmap.c:294: `filename' undeclared (first use in thi +s function) +/usr/src/axiom/new/int/lib/pixmap.c:294: `xi' undeclared (first use in this func +tion) +/usr/src/axiom/new/int/lib/pixmap.c:295: invalid type argument of `unary *' +/usr/src/axiom/new/int/lib/pixmap.c:296: invalid type argument of `unary *' +/usr/src/axiom/new/int/lib/pixmap.c: At top level: +/usr/src/axiom/new/int/lib/pixmap.c:314: parse error before '*' token +/usr/src/axiom/new/int/lib/pixmap.c: In function `write_pixmap_file': +/usr/src/axiom/new/int/lib/pixmap.c:317: parse error before "attr" +/usr/src/axiom/new/int/lib/pixmap.c:318: `XImage' undeclared (first use in this +function) +/usr/src/axiom/new/int/lib/pixmap.c:318: `xi' undeclared (first use in this func +tion) +/usr/src/axiom/new/int/lib/pixmap.c:318: `xireturn' undeclared (first use in thi +s function) +/usr/src/axiom/new/int/lib/pixmap.c:322: `dsp' undeclared (first use in this fun +ction) +/usr/src/axiom/new/int/lib/pixmap.c:322: `wid' undeclared (first use in this fun +ction) +/usr/src/axiom/new/int/lib/pixmap.c:322: `x' undeclared (first use in this funct +ion) +/usr/src/axiom/new/int/lib/pixmap.c:322: `y' undeclared (first use in this funct +ion) +/usr/src/axiom/new/int/lib/pixmap.c:322: `AllPlanes' undeclared (first use in th +is function) +/usr/src/axiom/new/int/lib/pixmap.c:322: `ZPixmap' undeclared (first use in this + function) +/usr/src/axiom/new/int/lib/pixmap.c:324: `fn' undeclared (first use in this func +tion) +make[2]: *** [/usr/src/axiom/new/obj/linux/lib/pixmap.o] Error 1 +make[2]: Leaving directory `/usr/src/axiom/new/src/lib' +make[1]: *** [libdir] Error 2 +make[1]: Leaving directory `/usr/src/axiom/new/src' +make: *** [srcdir] Error 2 + +Administrator@CANDIS-SYSADM1 /usr/src/axiom/new +$ + +---------------- + +So that's it for now, maybe you can see some simple things +I might do to make make work a little better. + +Regards, +Bill. + + + + +From daly@idsi.net Tue Nov 12 21:23:34 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18BnBl-00069G-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 12 Nov 2002 21:23:33 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18BnBj-00068x-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 12 Nov 2002 21:23:32 -0500 +Received: from harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.12]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18BnBj-00068t-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 12 Nov 2002 21:23:31 -0500 +Received: from dialup-65.56.26.132.dial1.stamford1.level3.net ([65.56.26.132] helo=localhost.localdomain) + by harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) + id 18BnBh-0007JW-00; Tue, 12 Nov 2002 18:23:29 -0800 +Received: (from root@localhost) + by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.6) id gAD22lE06751; + Tue, 12 Nov 2002 21:02:47 -0500 +Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 21:02:47 -0500 +Message-Id: <200211130202.gAD22lE06751@localhost.localdomain> +From: root +To: bill.page1@sympatico.ca +CC: daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Reply-to: daly@idsi.net +Subject: [Axiom-developer] First steps, part-dieu +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Ok, I mistyped: + +If you installed in /usr/local/axiom you need to set SPAD to include new: + + cd /usr/local/axiom/new + make SPAD=/usr/local/axiom/new + +also the noweb file is in the new directory so the cmds should read: + + cd /usr/local/axiom/new + touch noweb + +I'm not sure if rpm files will install in Cygwin. If not we need to +find a different method for creating the /usr/X11R6/include/X11 files. + +Tim + + + +From bill.page1@sympatico.ca Tue Nov 12 22:33:14 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18BoHB-0004TX-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 12 Nov 2002 22:33:13 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18BoH7-0004RH-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 12 Nov 2002 22:33:11 -0500 +Received: from tomts10.bellnexxia.net ([209.226.175.54] helo=tomts10-srv.bellnexxia.net) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18BoH6-0004PS-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 12 Nov 2002 22:33:08 -0500 +Received: from [209.226.175.20] by tomts10-srv.bellnexxia.net + (InterMail vM.5.01.04.19 201-253-122-122-119-20020516) with SMTP + id <20021113033307.ZOQQ9064.tomts10-srv.bellnexxia.net@[209.226.175.20]>; + Tue, 12 Nov 2002 22:33:07 -0500 +From: Bill Page +Organization: Daneliuk & Page +To: +CC: , +Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 22:33:07 -0500 +MIME-Version: 1.0 +Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 +Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit +Message-Id: <20021113033307.ZOQQ9064.tomts10-srv.bellnexxia.net@[209.226.175.20]> +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: first steps +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Tim, + +On 2002/11/12 Tue PM 08:50:41 EST you wrote: +> +> well, THAT went poorly :-) +> + +Not to worry ... I know I am making it hard for myself +trying to do this on cygwin right away. + +> I guess I should have mentioned that you can change the +> environment variables from their default values to your +> new values. The only one you should have to change is the +> SPAD variable. So, assuming you tried to install axiom +> in /usr/local try: +> +> cd /usr/local/axiom +> make SPAD=/usr/local/axiom +> + +Yes, this is good. I think it should be in the Makefile.dvi +and/or in the README file. + +> ... +> If you want you can build noweb yourself and do a +> cd /usr/local/axiom +> touch noweb +> and the Makefile will no longer attempt to build noweb. +> Of course you'll have to do the copy of the final +> commands into the $SPAD/mnt/linux/bin directory. +> + +Ok I see how that can work. At the present time the +commands that you included to make noweb fail under +cygwin. I have already installed noweb is a different +way. Some users also may have noweb installed and may +not want to rebuild it. So again, this would be a good +note to put in the README file. Perhaps there is some +reliable way to tell whether noweb has already been +installed? Of course it might be in different places on +different systems. + +> The "console read hang" is due to a syntax error +> introduced into the Makefile.pamphlet file in +> src/Makefile.pamphlet. In order to reduce the amount of +> tex-related output the output is redirected to +> $SPAD/obj/tmp/trace. Look at this file for the error. +> Methinks you must have changed this file. +> + +The contents of the trace file shows that I am missing +the noweb.sty file from my LaTex directory. Apparently +it was latex that was waiting for console input. Perhaps +this is an artifact of the fact that I did not let the +Makefile build noweb for me? In this case I may have to +add the file manually to the + + /usr/share/texmf/tex/latex/base + +directory. + +------------ + +Administrator@CANDIS-SYSADM1 /usr/src/axiom/new/obj/tmp +$ cat trace +This is TeX, Version 3.14159 (Web2C 7.3.7) +(./Makefile.tex +LaTeX2e <2001/06/01> +Babel and hyphenation patterns for american, french, german, ngerman, n +ohyphenation, loaded. +(/usr/share/texmf/tex/latex/base/article.cls +Document Class: article 2001/04/21 v1.4e Standard LaTeX document class +(/usr/share/texmf/tex/latex/base/size10.clo)) + +! LaTeX Error: File `noweb.sty' not found. + +Type X to quit or to proceed, +or enter new name. (Default extension: sty) + +Enter file name: +! Emergency stop. + + +l.3 \begin + {document}^^M +No pages of output. +Transcript written on Makefile.log. +This is TeX, Version 3.14159 (Web2C 7.3.7) +(./Makefile.tex +LaTeX2e <2001/06/01> +Babel and hyphenation patterns for american, french, german, ngerman, n +ohyphenation, loaded. +(/usr/share/texmf/tex/latex/base/article.cls +Document Class: article 2001/04/21 v1.4e Standard LaTeX document class +(/usr/share/texmf/tex/latex/base/size10.clo)) + +! LaTeX Error: File `noweb.sty' not found. + +Type X to quit or to proceed, +or enter new name. (Default extension: sty) + +Enter file name: +! Emergency stop. + + +l.3 \begin + {document}^^M +No pages of output. +Transcript written on Makefile.log. + +Administrator@CANDIS-SYSADM1 /usr/src/axiom/new/obj/tmp +$ + +----------------- + +> +> Your system build failed because you don't have the Xlib +> libraries. You need the following RPMS installed to build +> the system on RedHat 8.0 XFree86-devel-4.2.0-72.i386.rpm +> (for /usr/X11R6/include/X11/Xlib.h) + +Hmmm... I did install the cywin standard XFree86 stuff but +maybe that does not include the libraries? This is going +to take a litte more research. + +> +> Hope this helps. +> + +Yes, it helped a lot. I let you know how I progress. + +Thanks. + +Bill. + + + + +From daly@idsi.net Tue Nov 12 22:48:48 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18BoWG-0004Fb-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 12 Nov 2002 22:48:48 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18BoWE-0004FP-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 12 Nov 2002 22:48:47 -0500 +Received: from snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.62]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18BoWE-0004FG-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 12 Nov 2002 22:48:46 -0500 +Received: from dialup-65.56.26.132.dial1.stamford1.level3.net ([65.56.26.132] helo=localhost.localdomain) + by snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) + id 18BoWB-0001XL-00; Tue, 12 Nov 2002 19:48:44 -0800 +Received: (from root@localhost) + by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.6) id gAD3S1N06839; + Tue, 12 Nov 2002 22:28:01 -0500 +Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 22:28:01 -0500 +Message-Id: <200211130328.gAD3S1N06839@localhost.localdomain> +From: root +To: bill.page1@sympatico.ca +CC: daly@idsi.net, daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Reply-to: daly@idsi.net +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: first steps +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Touching any pamphlet file will cause it to be rebuilt during +the make. This requires noweb to exist. + +If the make fails to install noweb then the +$SPAD/mnt/linux/bin/tex/noweb.sty file and the +$SPAD/mnt/linux/bin/notangle and $SPAD/mnt/linux/bin/noweave +commands will not exist. These two commands and the style file +are required to rebuild a pamphlet. They are built as part of +the noweb build. + +Additionally, there is a command called 'document' in +$SPAD/src/scripts that gets copied to $SPAD/mnt/linux/bin +and is used to build the pamphlet files. + +You can create these by hand as follows: + + cd /usr/local/axiom/new + mkdir -p mnt/linux/bin/tex + cp (whereEverItExists)/notangle mnt/linux/bin + cp (whereEverItExists)/noweave mnt/linux/bin + cp (whereEverItExists)/noweb.sty mnt/linux/bin/tex + cp src/scripts/* /mnt/linux/bin + +The mkdir -p option creates any subdirectories that don't +exist on the specified path if necessary. Once these files +exist in mnt/linux/bin you need to update your PATH: + +export PATH=/usr/local/axiom/new/mnt/linux/bin:$PATH + +and the notangle, noweave and document commands should exist. + +Tim + + + +From bill.page1@sympatico.ca Fri Nov 15 20:32:26 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18Crow-0002XU-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Fri, 15 Nov 2002 20:32:26 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18Crot-0002X2-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Fri, 15 Nov 2002 20:32:24 -0500 +Received: from tomts15.bellnexxia.net ([209.226.175.3] helo=tomts15-srv.bellnexxia.net) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18Cros-0002Ws-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Fri, 15 Nov 2002 20:32:22 -0500 +Received: from Asus ([216.209.110.99]) by tomts15-srv.bellnexxia.net + (InterMail vM.5.01.04.19 201-253-122-122-119-20020516) with ESMTP + id <20021116013220.BNXM21453.tomts15-srv.bellnexxia.net@Asus>; + Fri, 15 Nov 2002 20:32:20 -0500 +From: "Bill Page" +To: +Cc: +Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 20:32:11 -0500 +Message-ID: <000201c28d10$01d2a390$6501a8c0@Asus> +MIME-Version: 1.0 +Content-Type: text/plain; + charset="US-ASCII" +Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit +X-Priority: 3 (Normal) +X-MSMail-Priority: Normal +X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4024 +In-Reply-To: <200211070516.gA75Gak23335@localhost.localdomain> +Importance: Normal +X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 +Subject: [Axiom-developer] making ccl on cygwin +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Tim, + +I have been trying hard to get CCL to compile +and link under Cygwin. I have resolved most +problems but I've run into a problem with the +"rusty" coding in CCL relating to remote procedure +calls (rpc). There are several variants of the +rpc api, the one being used by CCL is originally +from SUN. Cygwin does not normally include this +so the #include "rpc/rpc.h" is not defined +instead there is a "win32/rpc.h" which has a +somewhat different set of interface routines +and parameters. I was able to locate a version +of the SUN rpc which had been adapted for Cygwin +but it is not being directly maintained by the +Cygwin people. Anyway, after installing it +successfully, I got further with the CCL compile +but then ran into some C code that does not +conform to the standards expected by gcc version +3.2 (at least not with the options that the +Makefile contains). + +What version of C compiler are you using? Is +it gcc 3.2 on Red Hat 8.0 linux or some other? + +Anyway, I was wondering what you might think +about a some surgery to get rid of what appears +to be some "code rot" in this part of CCL? Is +rpc really needed for Axiom? I can imagine that +it might be relevant to someone interested in +parallel processing versions etc. but I expect +that anyone serious about doing this sort of +development would prefer a more modern inter- +process communication protocol than rpc? No? + +What do you think? + +Regards, +Bill Page. + + + + +From daly@idsi.net Fri Nov 15 21:11:39 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18CsQs-0000C6-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Fri, 15 Nov 2002 21:11:38 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18CsQn-0008Vz-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Fri, 15 Nov 2002 21:11:37 -0500 +Received: from harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.12]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18CsQn-0008TL-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Fri, 15 Nov 2002 21:11:33 -0500 +Received: from dialup-65.58.224.76.dial1.stamford1.level3.net ([65.58.224.76] helo=localhost.localdomain) + by harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) + id 18CsQg-00048a-00; Fri, 15 Nov 2002 18:11:27 -0800 +Received: (from root@localhost) + by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.6) id gAG1odS10522; + Fri, 15 Nov 2002 20:50:39 -0500 +Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 20:50:39 -0500 +Message-Id: <200211160150.gAG1odS10522@localhost.localdomain> +From: root +To: bill.page1@sympatico.ca +CC: daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +In-reply-to: <000201c28d10$01d2a390$6501a8c0@Asus> (bill.page1@sympatico.ca) +Reply-to: daly@idsi.net +References: <000201c28d10$01d2a390$6501a8c0@Asus> +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: making ccl on cygwin +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Bill, + +Two possible directions: + +First, I'm told that Cygwin has been replaced with native code +that runs directly in Windows which, of course, would require +that you redo your whole environment and seems a bit extreme. + +Second, I believe that rpc is used for the graphics but I'm not +certain yet. If you have changes you'd like to propose the best +current path to follow would be to: + +(1) modify the .pamphlet files with changes to the code and some +paragraphs explaining what you changed and why. + +(2) surround any changes you make in C code with some flag like +-DCYGWIN or -DBXP (Bill X Page). Note that I used -DTPD to mark +some of my changes so I could revisit them later. Add the new +-DBXP flag on the gcc lines of the stanzas that compile the +changed files. Make a note of it in the Makefile.pamphlet file. + +(3) create a patch file that can be applied to the original +.pamphlet file and send me the patches. try to make sure that +a patch implements only one "conceptual" change at a time. +That is, it might affect several files but only changes one +function, like rpc functionality. I've been making changes also +so I'm going to have to carefully merge your patches with my +changed files. + +In general, focus on getting the image built and runnable. +We'll do detailed debugging as we have time. + +I'm using redhat 7.2 (gcc 2.95), 7.2 (gcc 2.96) and 8.0 (gcc 3.1) +Send me a patch for the compile flags change you'd like. + +I should have the bootsys layer ready to upload shortly. +Once we get out of the C code and into a running lisp life +should be much easier. + +Tim + + + +From daly@idsi.net Fri Nov 15 22:12:45 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18CtO0-0004S8-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Fri, 15 Nov 2002 22:12:44 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18CtNw-0004PL-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Fri, 15 Nov 2002 22:12:43 -0500 +Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.122]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18CtNv-0004PG-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Fri, 15 Nov 2002 22:12:40 -0500 +Received: from dialup-65.58.224.76.dial1.stamford1.level3.net ([65.58.224.76] helo=localhost.localdomain) + by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) + id 18CtNs-0006Nh-00; Fri, 15 Nov 2002 19:12:36 -0800 +Received: (from root@localhost) + by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.6) id gAG2pok10546; + Fri, 15 Nov 2002 21:51:50 -0500 +Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 21:51:50 -0500 +Message-Id: <200211160251.gAG2pok10546@localhost.localdomain> +From: root +To: bill.page@sympatico.ca +CC: daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Reply-to: daly@idsi.net +Subject: [Axiom-developer] document command +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +How are you at writing bash shell scripts? + +The document command currently takes one argument +which is the name of a pamphlet file. If the name +ends in .pamphlet it clips it off. + +In the Makefiles I call the document command if +there are changes. The document command calls latex +which generates a tremendous amount of output most +of which I ignore. In order to reduce the noise I +code lines like: + document Makefile >${TMP}/trace + +This has a problem. If the .pamphlet file has a +syntax error then latex will put up a read and hang. +Since the output is being sent to a file nothing +will appear on the console and the whole make +process appears to hang. + +A slightly better solution would be to implement an +option on document to specify the output file like: + document -o ${TMP}/trace Makefile +Then we can make a global variable called NOISE. +By default we set + NOISE=-o ${TMP}/trace +and write + document ${NOISE} Makefile + +Then if there is a hung make a developer can write + make NOISE= +and the lines change into + document Makefile +which will output all of the latex. + +I'm not much of a bash programmer. +If you know bash could you take a stab at +rewriting document to take a "-o file" option? +If not, I'll look at it. + +Tim + + + + + + + +From daly@idsi.net Sat Nov 16 12:57:33 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18D7CH-00076J-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Sat, 16 Nov 2002 12:57:33 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18D7CF-000767-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Sat, 16 Nov 2002 12:57:32 -0500 +Received: from falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.74]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18D7CF-00075y-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Sat, 16 Nov 2002 12:57:31 -0500 +Received: from dialup-65.56.27.229.dial1.stamford1.level3.net ([65.56.27.229] helo=localhost.localdomain) + by falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) + id 18D7C9-0002RC-00; Sat, 16 Nov 2002 09:57:26 -0800 +Received: (from root@localhost) + by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.6) id gAGHadQ11408; + Sat, 16 Nov 2002 12:36:39 -0500 +Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 12:36:39 -0500 +Message-Id: <200211161736.gAGHadQ11408@localhost.localdomain> +From: root +To: bill.page1@sympatico.ca +CC: daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Reply-to: daly@idsi.net +Subject: [Axiom-developer] bash script +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +re: bash script. + +Nevermind. I finally beat it into submission. Apparently you can't +nest if statements and you can't have a space in the assignment +command surrounding the '=' sign. + +I'm surprised that comments don't need a character in column 6. +Cretinous language. +The designers should be shot. + +Anyway, it works and it will fix the "hung console" problem +(not really as it will still hang but the real fix will require +more work as i have to figure out how to convince latex not to +read from the console and also return a failing return code so +i can react to it better. sigh) + +Tim + + + +From bill.page1@sympatico.ca Sun Nov 17 18:01:03 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18DYPW-0002yx-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 18:01:02 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18DYPS-0002xm-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 18:01:00 -0500 +Received: from tomts20-srv.bellnexxia.net ([209.226.175.74]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18DYPS-0002xW-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 18:00:58 -0500 +Received: from Asus ([209.226.189.40]) by tomts20-srv.bellnexxia.net + (InterMail vM.5.01.04.19 201-253-122-122-119-20020516) with ESMTP + id <20021117230056.SKDU1539.tomts20-srv.bellnexxia.net@Asus>; + Sun, 17 Nov 2002 18:00:56 -0500 +From: "Bill Page" +To: +Cc: +Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 18:00:55 -0500 +Message-ID: <000001c28e8d$3090e3d0$6501a8c0@Asus> +MIME-Version: 1.0 +Content-Type: text/plain; + charset="us-ascii" +Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit +X-Priority: 3 (Normal) +X-MSMail-Priority: Normal +X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4024 +In-Reply-To: <200211160150.gAG1odS10522@localhost.localdomain> +Importance: Normal +X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 +Subject: [Axiom-developer] RE: making ccl on cygwin +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Tim, + +I've succeded in building CCL and am now working +on GCL. GCL should be easier, I hope. + +On Friday, November 15, 2002 8:51 PM you wrote: +> +> Two possible directions: +> +> First, I'm told that Cygwin has been replaced with +> native code that runs directly in Windows which, of +> course, would require that you redo your whole +> environment and seems a bit extreme. + +Although I am willing to work towards a direct Windows +implementation of Axiom, I think the "half-way" point +represented by Cygwin is a better target at this +point - not too far away from Linux but far enough +to represent some (but hopefully not too many) +challenges. + +> +> Second, I believe that rpc is used for the graphics +> but I'm not certain yet. If you have changes you'd +> like to propose the best current path to follow would +> be to: +> +> (1) modify the .pamphlet files with changes to the +> code and some paragraphs explaining what you changed +> and why. +> +> (2) surround any changes you make in C code with some +> flag like -DCYGWIN or -DBXP (Bill X Page). Note that +> I used -DTPD to mark some of my changes so I could +> revisit them later. Add the new -DBXP flag on the gcc +> lines of the stanzas that compile the changed files. +> Make a note of it in the Makefile.pamphlet file. +> + +I have been able to retain rpc and will mark the few +changes that I needed to make to get it to compile as +you suggest above. + +> (3) create a patch file that can be applied to the +> original .pamphlet file and send me the patches. +> Try to make sure that a patch implements only one +> "conceptual" change at a time. That is, it might +> affect several files but only changes one function, +> like rpc functionality. I've been making changes +> also so I'm going to have to carefully merge your +> patches with my changed files. + +Ok. By "patch file" do you mean the output of diff? + +In the future do you intend to make use of the +"concurrent" functionality of cvs to keep track +of these sort of "parallel" changes? + +> +> In general, focus on getting the image built and +> runnable. We'll do detailed debugging as we have +> time. + +Understood. + +> +> I'm using redhat 7.2 (gcc 2.95), 7.2 (gcc 2.96) +> and 8.0 (gcc 3.1) Send me a patch for the compile +> flags change you'd like. + +Do you feel like upgrading to the current release +of gcc 3.2? + + http://gcc.gnu.org/gcc-3.2/ + +It isn't necessary of course but 3.2 is supposed to +be more "standard" than previous versions. + + http://gcc.gnu.org/gcc-3.2/c++-abi.html + + +> +> I should have the bootsys layer ready to upload +> shortly. Once we get out of the C code and into a +> running lisp life should be much easier. +> + +I am looking forward to that! + +Cheers, +Bill. + + + + +From daly@idsi.net Sun Nov 17 18:07:49 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18DYW4-0007vd-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 18:07:48 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18DYW3-0007vR-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 18:07:48 -0500 +Received: from scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.49]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18DYW2-0007vG-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 18:07:46 -0500 +Received: from dialup-63.208.85.29.dial1.stamford1.level3.net ([63.208.85.29] helo=localhost.localdomain) + by scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) + id 18DYVy-00019w-00; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 15:07:43 -0800 +Received: (from root@localhost) + by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.6) id gAHN4Ij10253; + Sun, 17 Nov 2002 18:04:18 -0500 +Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 18:04:18 -0500 +Message-Id: <200211172304.gAHN4Ij10253@localhost.localdomain> +From: root +To: bill.page1@sympatico.ca +CC: daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +In-reply-to: <000001c28e8d$3090e3d0$6501a8c0@Asus> (bill.page1@sympatico.ca) +Reply-to: daly@idsi.net +References: <000001c28e8d$3090e3d0$6501a8c0@Asus> +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: making ccl on cygwin +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +I'm uploading and cleaning the cvs at the moment. +I'll answer shortly. + +Tim + + + +From daly@idsi.net Sun Nov 17 19:46:14 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18Da3J-00077l-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 19:46:13 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18Da3H-00076f-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 19:46:12 -0500 +Received: from snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.62]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18Da3H-00076b-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 19:46:11 -0500 +Received: from dialup-63.208.85.29.dial1.stamford1.level3.net ([63.208.85.29] helo=localhost.localdomain) + by snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) + id 18Da38-0007bK-00; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 16:46:03 -0800 +Received: (from root@localhost) + by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.6) id gAI0gcg11879; + Sun, 17 Nov 2002 19:42:38 -0500 +Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 19:42:38 -0500 +Message-Id: <200211180042.gAI0gcg11879@localhost.localdomain> +From: root +To: bill.page1@sympatico.ca +CC: daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Reply-to: daly@idsi.net +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: making ccl on cygwin +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +I've uploaded the machinery to build bootsys. + +In theory you should just need to type make and it +will eventually build obj/linux/bin/bootsys. +You should be able to run this image thus: + cd obj/linux/bin + ./bootsys + +re: Cygwin. That's fine. I wasn't objecting to using +Cygwin but just passing along information. + +re: diff and patch. yes. you should be able to + diff -Naur oldfile newfile +do man patch for details + +re: using CVS. yes, we'll be using CVS to make these +changes shortly. At the moment I'm doing "forward" work +on CVS, that is, I'm uploading new code as I build it +and clean it up. I'm trying to get a clean version of +CVS and my working directories have acres of cruft that +should never get uploaded (e.g. the partial "original" +directories"). Once I get a grip on CVS we'll work +exclusively thru CVS. For now, however, please bear +with me and use patch files. + +Especially problematic about using CVS for the initial +port to Cygwin is that, to do it correctly, you need to +modify the top level Makefile with new stanzas. You should +be building on obj/cygwin, not obj/linux. I know how to +make that magic happen but I haven't sufficiently explained +it in the Makefile. I'm going to use your example (given +that you get to be the pioneer) to force me to explain +how and why to make changes while porting. + +You may notice three other things in the top level Makefile. +First, you made the contributors list. Second, there is a +FAQ section with your build questions. If you think of more +we should add them. Third, the author line is now Nicolas +Bourbaki. He apparently was a French general that screwed +up badly. In the 30s a group of French mathematicians started +using that pseudonym to publish their results. Given that +there are many tens of contributors to Axiom it seemed +unreasonable to attribute particular pieces to anyone and +unreasonable to attribute the pamphlet files to me. So, +Bourbaki seems like a reasonable alternative. + +I've upgraded my redhat 8 box to 3.2. I can't upgrade +the other boxes as I have to use them for other code. +Yes, 3.2 is correct but only if you use the latest +"standard" as the definition of correctness. Most of +the C and C++ code I have is badly broken by the +language definition changes. I have a lot of things +that need fixing and I need the old compiler to keep +runnable versions of my code. + +The latest version, just to add to your confusion, +is running on GCL, not CCL. I've discovered a problem +with CCL and sent a note to Arthur. CCL isn't really +a common lisp and never pretended to be. However, it +has an obscure model of "compile-file" and I have to +ponder how to build upon it. Just to continue development +I switched to GCL for the moment. If I've done my job +right you shouldn't notice. + +You'll notice that the CVS directory is much lighter to +download. I've gone thru several download/upload iterations +so I can be sure you get a clean copy. The "original" directory +is still built but is empty. It was partially uploaded by +mistake anyway. The annoying new/new still exists and I'll +fix that soon. The zips directory is lighter as cmucl is gone. +I'll add back an abbreviated version when I get the build to +succeed. It is a matter of some annoyance that CVS will not +delete directories. + +Tim + + + +From miked@nag.co.uk Mon Nov 18 04:37:19 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18DiLG-0007uc-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 04:37:18 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18DiLA-0007rY-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 04:37:16 -0500 +Received: from mail22.messagelabs.com ([193.109.255.115]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18DiL8-0007mK-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 04:37:11 -0500 +X-VirusChecked: Checked +X-Env-Sender: miked@nag.co.uk +X-Msg-Ref: server-9.tower-22.messagelabs.com!1037612223!3938 +Received: (qmail 1428 invoked from network); 18 Nov 2002 09:37:03 -0000 +Received: from smtp-7.star.net.uk (212.125.75.76) + by server-9.tower-22.messagelabs.com with SMTP; 18 Nov 2002 09:37:03 -0000 +Received: (qmail 23844 invoked from network); 18 Nov 2002 09:37:00 -0000 +Received: from nagmx1.nag.co.uk (HELO nag.co.uk) (62.231.145.242) + by smtp-7.star.net.uk with SMTP; 18 Nov 2002 09:37:00 -0000 +Received: from brackley.nag.co.uk (brackley.nag.co.uk [192.156.217.21]) + by nag.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA19487; + Mon, 18 Nov 2002 09:36:45 GMT +Received: from nag.co.uk (IDENT:root@trowbridge.nag.co.uk [192.156.217.69]) + by brackley.nag.co.uk (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id gAI9aVJ01782; + Mon, 18 Nov 2002 09:36:38 GMT + (envelope-from miked@nag.co.uk) +Received: (from miked@localhost) + by nag.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA28798; + Mon, 18 Nov 2002 09:36:10 GMT +Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 09:36:10 +0000 +From: Mike Dewar +To: Bill Page +Cc: daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] making ccl on cygwin +Message-ID: <20021118093610.B28777@nag.co.uk> +References: <200211070516.gA75Gak23335@localhost.localdomain> <000201c28d10$01d2a390$6501a8c0@Asus> +Mime-Version: 1.0 +Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii +X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i +In-Reply-To: <000201c28d10$01d2a390$6501a8c0@Asus>; from bill.page1@sympatico.ca on Fri, Nov 15, 2002 at 08:32:11PM -0500 +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Hi Bill, + +The versions of Axiom up to 2.2 for Windows were built with Watcom C +because it was the fastest C compiler around at the time. We moved to +Visual C++ (version 6 I think) for Axiom 2.3 since Watcom C was no +longer supported. We never built a cygwin version. The version of CCL +you have is a merge of our latest version with Arthur Norman's, and I +haven't tried building it under Windows. + +The license manager certainly needed RPC, as did our link to the NAG +Library (on Unix only). I'm not sure whether any of the graphics or +sman code used it - I don't think so but I could be wrong. + +The code I sent to Tim was tested on Redhat Linux (nominally 6.2 but it +gets patched and upgraded constantly) with gcc 2.91.66. + +Good luck! + +Mike. + +On Fri, Nov 15, 2002 at 08:32:11PM -0500, Bill Page wrote: +> Tim, +> +> I have been trying hard to get CCL to compile +> and link under Cygwin. I have resolved most +> problems but I've run into a problem with the +> "rusty" coding in CCL relating to remote procedure +> calls (rpc). There are several variants of the +> rpc api, the one being used by CCL is originally +> from SUN. Cygwin does not normally include this +> so the #include "rpc/rpc.h" is not defined +> instead there is a "win32/rpc.h" which has a +> somewhat different set of interface routines +> and parameters. I was able to locate a version +> of the SUN rpc which had been adapted for Cygwin +> but it is not being directly maintained by the +> Cygwin people. Anyway, after installing it +> successfully, I got further with the CCL compile +> but then ran into some C code that does not +> conform to the standards expected by gcc version +> 3.2 (at least not with the options that the +> Makefile contains). +> +> What version of C compiler are you using? Is +> it gcc 3.2 on Red Hat 8.0 linux or some other? +> +> Anyway, I was wondering what you might think +> about a some surgery to get rid of what appears +> to be some "code rot" in this part of CCL? Is +> rpc really needed for Axiom? I can imagine that +> it might be relevant to someone interested in +> parallel processing versions etc. but I expect +> that anyone serious about doing this sort of +> development would prefer a more modern inter- +> process communication protocol than rpc? No? +> +> What do you think? +> +> Regards, +> Bill Page. +> +> +> +> _______________________________________________ +> Axiom-developer mailing list +> Axiom-developer@nongnu.org +> http://mail.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/axiom-developer +> +> _____________________________________________________________________ +> This message has been checked for all known viruses by Star Internet +> delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Scanning Service. For further +> information visit http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp or alternatively call +> Star Internet for details on the Virus Scanning Service. + +_____________________________________________________________________ +This message has been checked for all known viruses by Star Internet +delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Scanning Service. For further +information visit http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp or alternatively call +Star Internet for details on the Virus Scanning Service. + + + +From daly@idsi.net Mon Nov 18 08:59:25 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18DmQv-0000JS-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 08:59:25 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18DmQp-0000IK-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 08:59:23 -0500 +Received: from harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.12]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18DmQo-0000ID-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 08:59:19 -0500 +Received: from dialup-63.208.80.252.dial1.stamford1.level3.net ([63.208.80.252] helo=localhost.localdomain) + by harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) + id 18DmQg-0003pJ-00; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 05:59:10 -0800 +Received: (from root@localhost) + by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.6) id gAIDthd12898; + Mon, 18 Nov 2002 08:55:43 -0500 +Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 08:55:43 -0500 +Message-Id: <200211181355.gAIDthd12898@localhost.localdomain> +From: root +To: Norman Ramsey +Cc: daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Reply-to: daly@idsi.net +Subject: [Axiom-developer] [axiom] Undefined Chunks behavior +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Norman, + +Some of the code I'm processing includes files that define +the language used and contains code like: + <<' Name '>> +which is, of course, view as a chunk. The default behavior of +an undefined chunk elides the << >> pair. It would be more +useful to me if the default behavior was to output the chunk +exactly as found. Another example is C code that does: + x << 3 && y >> 2 +where again it would be useful to have the default behavior +to be an unchanged output. + +Is there a way to do this currently? If not, can you recommend +a place where I could look to apply this change? + +Tim + + + +From daly@idsi.net Mon Nov 18 10:40:35 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18Do0p-0002oX-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 10:40:35 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18Do0k-0002kC-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 10:40:34 -0500 +Received: from swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.123]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18Dnzr-0002LC-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 10:39:35 -0500 +Received: from dialup-63.208.80.252.dial1.stamford1.level3.net ([63.208.80.252] helo=localhost.localdomain) + by swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) + id 18Dnzh-0006Du-00; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 07:39:25 -0800 +Received: (from root@localhost) + by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.6) id gAIFa1e12998; + Mon, 18 Nov 2002 10:36:01 -0500 +Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 10:36:01 -0500 +Message-Id: <200211181536.gAIFa1e12998@localhost.localdomain> +From: root +To: nr@eecs.harvard.edu +CC: daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +In-reply-to: <20021118152547.33C0F54C71B@mail.eecs.harvard.edu> (message from + Norman Ramsey on Mon, 18 Nov 2002 10:25:47 -0500) +Reply-to: daly@idsi.net +References: <200211181355.gAIDthd12898@localhost.localdomain> <20021118152547.33C0F54C71B@mail.eecs.harvard.edu> +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: [axiom] Undefined Chunks behavior +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Thanks. I'll look at the filter technique. Sort of a "do no harm" default. + +I'm familiar with the @<< escape but it will mean that I have to change +the original documents whereas defaulting to an unchanged document means +that I don't introduce semantic errors (like lost shifts in C) if I +miss an undefined chunk message. + +Tim + +====================================================================== +To: daly@idsi.net +Subject: Re: [axiom] Undefined Chunks behavior +In-Reply-To: Message from root + of "Mon, 18 Nov 2002 08:55:43 EST." <200211181355.gAIDthd12898@localhost.localdomain> +Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 10:25:47 -0500 +From: Norman Ramsey +X-RAVMilter-Version: 8.3.1(snapshot 20020109) (mail.idsi.net) +X-UIDL: p!I"!I+#"!WM7!!N`,"! + +You could write a noweb filter to do this easily enough, +but the `correct', sanctioned way to solve this problem is to +escape the source code by writing, e.g., + + @<<' Name '@>> + +N + + + +From daly@idsi.net Mon Nov 18 20:39:05 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18DxM0-00057r-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 20:39:04 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18DxLy-00057D-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 20:39:04 -0500 +Received: from swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.123]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18DxLy-00055M-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 20:39:02 -0500 +Received: from dialup-63.208.80.252.dial1.stamford1.level3.net ([63.208.80.252] helo=localhost.localdomain) + by swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) + id 18DxLu-0002qM-00; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 17:38:58 -0800 +Received: (from root@localhost) + by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.6) id gAJ1Za713231; + Mon, 18 Nov 2002 20:35:36 -0500 +Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 20:35:36 -0500 +Message-Id: <200211190135.gAJ1Za713231@localhost.localdomain> +From: root +To: nr@eecs.harvard.edu +CC: daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Re: [axiom] Undefined Chunks behavior +Reply-to: daly@idsi.net +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Actually, it appears that the correct fix is to modify modules.c +(line 201 in modules.nw, line 117 in modules.c) to create a new, +dummy Module that expands into <> if foo is not found and +then calls expand on that. + +I don't see how to do this with filters. Perhaps I'm missing something. + +Tim + + + +From daly@idsi.net Mon Nov 18 22:59:22 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18DzXl-0005OA-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 22:59:21 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18DzXh-0005Je-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 22:59:19 -0500 +Received: from flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.232]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18DzW4-0004TV-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 22:57:36 -0500 +Received: from dialup-63.208.80.252.dial1.stamford1.level3.net ([63.208.80.252] helo=localhost.localdomain) + by flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) + id 18DzVz-0003U7-00; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 19:57:32 -0800 +Received: (from root@localhost) + by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.6) id gAJ3s8f14710; + Mon, 18 Nov 2002 22:54:08 -0500 +Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 22:54:08 -0500 +Message-Id: <200211190354.gAJ3s8f14710@localhost.localdomain> +From: root +To: nr@eecs.harvard.edu +CC: daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Reply-to: daly@idsi.net +Subject: [Axiom-developer] [axiom] Undefined Chunks behavior +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Norman, + +I have included two patch files you can apply to change the +behavior for undefined chunks. Previously undefined chunks +generated an error and were elided from the output. Now they are +complained about but included in the output surrounded by +the << and >> symbols which should recreate the original input. + +This seems to do the "least harm" to the file as it reproduces +what it doesn't understand. + +The change is explained in the nw file. + +To fix these you only need to cd to the noweb/src/c directory +and type: + patch >= + newmod = lookup(p->contents); + if (newmod==NULL) { +- errormsg (Error, "undefined chunk name: @<<%s@>>", p->contents); ++ errormsg (Error, "ignoring undefined chunk name: @<<%s@>>", p->contents); + error=Error; ++ printf("@<<%s@>>",p->contents); + } else { + int retcode; + if (*locformat == 0 && partial_distance == 0) { + + +======================== modules.c.patch ============================== +--- modules.c Wed Mar 28 13:49:22 2001 ++++ modules.c.tpd Mon Nov 18 22:26:35 2002 +@@ -1,4 +1,3 @@ +-#line 50 "modules.nw" + static char rcsid[] = "$Id: modules.nw,v 2.16 2001/03/28 18:44:46 nr Exp nr $"; + static char rcsname[] = "$Name: v2_10a $"; + #include +@@ -11,18 +10,14 @@ + #include "columns.h" + #include "strsave.h" + +-#line 110 "modules.nw" + static struct modpart * + newmodpart(int type, char *s, Location *loc); /* create a new module part */ + + static + void append(Module mp, struct modpart *p); +-#line 227 "modules.nw" + static int seekcycle(Module mp, Parent parent); +-#line 132 "modules.nw" + static char *lastfilename = 0; + static int lastlineno = -1; +-#line 41 "modules.nw" + Module newmodule (char *modname) { + Module p = (Module) malloc (sizeof (struct module)); + checkptr(p); +@@ -31,12 +26,10 @@ + p->head = p->tail = NULL; + return p; + } +-#line 74 "modules.nw" + void add_part (Module mp, char *s, Parttype type, Location *loc) { + struct modpart *p = newmodpart(type,s,loc); + append (mp,p); + } +-#line 79 "modules.nw" + static struct modpart * + newmodpart(int type, char *s, Location *loc) { + struct modpart *p = (struct modpart *) malloc (sizeof (struct modpart)); +@@ -44,19 +37,15 @@ + p->ptype = type; + if (s) { + p->contents = strsave(s); +- +-#line 104 "modules.nw" +-{ int k = strlen(p->contents)-1; +- if (p->contents[k] == '\n') p->contents[k] = '\0'; +- else impossible("input line doesn't end with newline"); +-} +-#line 87 "modules.nw" ++ { int k = strlen(p->contents)-1; ++ if (p->contents[k] == '\n') p->contents[k] = '\0'; ++ else impossible("input line doesn't end with newline"); ++ } + } + if (loc) p->loc = *loc; + p->next = NULL; + return p; + } +-#line 93 "modules.nw" + static + void append(Module mp, struct modpart *p) { + /* append p to mp's list of modparts */ +@@ -67,12 +56,10 @@ + mp->tail = p; + } + } +-#line 137 "modules.nw" + void resetloc(void) { + lastfilename = 0; + lastlineno = -1; + } +-#line 145 "modules.nw" + int expand (Module mp, int indent, int partial_distance, Parent parent, + char *locformat, FILE *out) { + struct modpart *p; +@@ -80,69 +67,51 @@ + int error=Normal; + struct parent thismodule; /* the value only matters when we're expanding a module */ + +- +-#line 219 "modules.nw" +-thismodule.this = mp; +-thismodule.parent = parent; +-#line 153 "modules.nw" +- +-#line 222 "modules.nw" +-if (seekcycle(mp, parent)) { +- errormsg(Error, "<<%s>>", mp->name); +- return Error; +-} ++ thismodule.this = mp; ++ thismodule.parent = parent; ++ if (seekcycle(mp, parent)) { ++ errormsg(Error, "<<%s>>", mp->name); ++ return Error; ++ } + +-#line 155 "modules.nw" + for (p=mp->head; p!=NULL; p=p->next) { + switch (p->ptype) { +- case STRING: +-#line 176 "modules.nw" +-if (*(p->contents) != '\0') { +- if (*locformat) { +- if (printloc(out,locformat,p->loc,partial_distance) && (p != mp->head)) +- indent_for(partial_distance, out); +- } else if (partial_distance == 0) { +- indent_for(indent, out); +- partial_distance = indent; +- } +- fprintf(out,"%s",p->contents); +- partial_distance = limitcolumn(p->contents, partial_distance); +-} +-#line 157 "modules.nw" +- ; break; +- case MODULE: +-#line 201 "modules.nw" +-newmod = lookup(p->contents); +-if (newmod==NULL) { +- errormsg (Error, "undefined chunk name: <<%s>>", p->contents); +- error=Error; +-} else { +- int retcode; +- if (*locformat == 0 && partial_distance == 0) { +- indent_for(indent, out); +- partial_distance = indent; +- } +- retcode = expand (newmod, partial_distance, partial_distance, +- &thismodule, locformat, out); +- if (retcode > error) error = retcode; +-} +-partial_distance = limitcolumn(p->contents, partial_distance + 2) + 2; +- /* account for surrounding brackets */ +-#line 158 "modules.nw" +- ; break; +- case NEWLINE: +-#line 188 "modules.nw" +-partial_distance = 0; +-putc('\n', out); +-lastlineno++; +-#line 159 "modules.nw" +- ; break; ++ case STRING: if (*(p->contents) != '\0') { ++ if (*locformat) { ++ if (printloc(out,locformat,p->loc,partial_distance) && (p != mp->head)) ++ indent_for(partial_distance, out); ++ } else if (partial_distance == 0) { ++ indent_for(indent, out); ++ partial_distance = indent; ++ } ++ fprintf(out,"%s",p->contents); ++ partial_distance = limitcolumn(p->contents, partial_distance); ++ }; break; ++ case MODULE: newmod = lookup(p->contents); ++ if (newmod==NULL) { ++ errormsg (Error, "ignoring undefined chunk name: <<%s>>", p->contents); ++ error=Error; ++ printf("<<%s>>",p->contents); ++ } else { ++ int retcode; ++ if (*locformat == 0 && partial_distance == 0) { ++ indent_for(indent, out); ++ partial_distance = indent; ++ } ++ retcode = expand (newmod, partial_distance, partial_distance, ++ &thismodule, locformat, out); ++ if (retcode > error) error = retcode; ++ } ++ partial_distance = limitcolumn(p->contents, partial_distance + 2) + 2; ++ /* account for surrounding brackets */; break; ++ case NEWLINE: partial_distance = 0; ++ putc('\n', out); ++ lastlineno++;; break; + default: impossible("bad part type"); + } + } + return error; + } +-#line 229 "modules.nw" + static int seekcycle(Module mp, Parent parent) { + if (parent == NULL) { + return 0; +@@ -155,57 +124,45 @@ + return 0; + } + } +-#line 251 "modules.nw" + int printloc(FILE *fp, char *fmt, Location loc, int partial) { + char *p; + if (*fmt + && (loc.filename!=lastfilename || lastlineno != loc.lineno)) { + if (partial) putc('\n',fp); +- +-#line 263 "modules.nw" +-for (p = fmt; *p; p++) { +- if (*p == '%') { +- switch (*++p) { +- case '%': putc('%', fp); break; +- case 'N': putc('\n', fp); break; +- case 'F': fprintf(fp, "%s", loc.filename); break; +- case 'L': fprintf(fp, "%d", loc.lineno); break; +- case '-': case '+': +- if (isdigit(p[1]) && p[2] == 'L') { +- fprintf(fp, "%d", *p == '+' ? loc.lineno + (p[1] - '0') +- : loc.lineno - (p[1] - '0')); +- p += 2; +- } else +- +-#line 283 "modules.nw" +-{ static int complained = 0; +- if (!complained) { +- errormsg(Error,"Bad format sequence ``%%%c'' in -L%s",*p,fmt); +- complained = 1; +- } +-} +-#line 277 "modules.nw" +- break; +- default: +-#line 283 "modules.nw" +-{ static int complained = 0; +- if (!complained) { +- errormsg(Error,"Bad format sequence ``%%%c'' in -L%s",*p,fmt); +- complained = 1; +- } +-} +-#line 278 "modules.nw" +- break; ++ for (p = fmt; *p; p++) { ++ if (*p == '%') { ++ switch (*++p) { ++ case '%': putc('%', fp); break; ++ case 'N': putc('\n', fp); break; ++ case 'F': fprintf(fp, "%s", loc.filename); break; ++ case 'L': fprintf(fp, "%d", loc.lineno); break; ++ case '-': case '+': ++ if (isdigit(p[1]) && p[2] == 'L') { ++ fprintf(fp, "%d", *p == '+' ? loc.lineno + (p[1] - '0') ++ : loc.lineno - (p[1] - '0')); ++ p += 2; ++ } else ++ { static int complained = 0; ++ if (!complained) { ++ errormsg(Error,"Bad format sequence ``%%%c'' in -L%s",*p,fmt); ++ complained = 1; ++ } ++ } ++ break; ++ default: { static int complained = 0; ++ if (!complained) { ++ errormsg(Error,"Bad format sequence ``%%%c'' in -L%s",*p,fmt); ++ complained = 1; ++ } ++ } break; ++ } ++ } else putc(*p, fp); + } +- } else putc(*p, fp); +-} +-#line 257 "modules.nw" + lastfilename = loc.filename; + lastlineno = loc.lineno; + return 1; + } else return 0; + } +-#line 309 "modules.nw" + void remove_final_newline (Module mp) { + /* remove trailing newline that must be in module */ + if (mp->tail==NULL) /* module has no text */ + + + + +From bill.page1@sympatico.ca Tue Nov 19 02:32:32 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18E2s4-0000iP-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 02:32:32 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18E2ry-0000eZ-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 02:32:30 -0500 +Received: from tomts12.bellnexxia.net ([209.226.175.56] helo=tomts12-srv.bellnexxia.net) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18E2rx-0000V9-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 02:32:26 -0500 +Received: from [209.226.175.18] by tomts12-srv.bellnexxia.net + (InterMail vM.5.01.04.19 201-253-122-122-119-20020516) with SMTP + id <20021119073218.FYEG1892.tomts12-srv.bellnexxia.net@[209.226.175.18]>; + Tue, 19 Nov 2002 02:32:18 -0500 +From: Bill Page +Organization: Daneliuk & Page +To: , +CC: , +Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 2:32:19 -0500 +MIME-Version: 1.0 +Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 +Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit +Message-Id: <20021119073218.FYEG1892.tomts12-srv.bellnexxia.net@[209.226.175.18]> +Subject: [Axiom-developer] visual literate programming +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Tim and Joris, + +I have now started to become quite familiar with TeXmacs +and am rather pleased with it's capabilities. I think it +is a good choice for a new graphical front-end for axiom. + +By now you (Tim) have authored a number of significant +noweb "pamphlet" files for the new open source version +of axiom and have even made some simple changes to noweb +to accommodate the axiom build process. + +It has always seemed quite clear to me that the overall +appearance of a complex system (such as axiom) is strongly +influenced by the environment in which it is developed. +Thus systems developed in a "command line" oriented +environment (the classical Unix environment) tend to be +command line oriented etc. So therefore I am quite +interested in finding ways to continue the development of +axiom from with in the environment in which it will +eventually run. To that end, let me recall your exchange +with Jorix van der Hoeven of last June. + +--------- + +Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 11:51:06 +0200 (MET DST) +From: Joris van der Hoeven +To: root +Cc: texmacs-dev@gnu.org, + "Nicolas M. Thiery" , + Dylan Thurston , + Philippe Toffin , + Barry Trager , + Carlo Traverso , + Theodore Thomas Tsikas , + "Gioia M. Vago" , + Joris van der Hoeven , + Leonid Vaserstein , + Nikolay Vassiliev +Subject: Re: [axiom] Axiom website updated + + +On Fri, 31 May 2002, root wrote: + +> Axiom's website has been updated +> http://home.earthlink.net/~jgg964/axiom.html +> +> * Discussion of the Literate Programming + +I would just like to remind you that we want to make TeXmacs +an editor for literate programming in the mid-range future. +At the moment David Allouche is working on a very general +dynamic rewriting scheme, which will englobe TMSL (TeXmacs +style language), XSL and literate programming rewriters. +I expect this work to be finished in six months from now. +Among the TeXmacs developers, at least three persons are +very interested in literate programming. At the moment +these three persons are volunteers, but if someone has +some money available, then I think that their projects +could be boosted in a serious way. + +Joris van der Hoeven +http://www.texmacs.org: GNU TeXmacs scientific text editor +http://www.math.u-psud.fr/~vdhoeven: personal homepage + +--------- + +I would like to find out what is the current status of the +application of TeXmacs to literate programming and what are +your current thoughts about this subject with respect to +the axiom project. + +If it hasn't been done already, I would be quite interested +in attempting to develop an appropriate filter for TeXmacs +which would be able to import a noweb pamphlet file (of the +kind that you are now writing) into a form that could be +directly edited and printed in "noweave/latex" format. +Then one would also want to be able to export both to the +original noweb pamphlet format and also to "notangle" code. + +Has there been any new developments in this area? Are there +any other places on the web to look for this kind of work? + +Regards, +Bill Page. + + + + +From bill.page1@sympatico.ca Tue Nov 19 06:20:26 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18E6Qc-0002eU-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 06:20:26 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18E6QY-0002Qd-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 06:20:24 -0500 +Received: from tomts10.bellnexxia.net ([209.226.175.54] helo=tomts10-srv.bellnexxia.net) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18E6QX-0002Kq-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 06:20:21 -0500 +Received: from [209.226.175.18] by tomts10-srv.bellnexxia.net + (InterMail vM.5.01.04.19 201-253-122-122-119-20020516) with SMTP + id <20021119112019.BHLR9064.tomts10-srv.bellnexxia.net@[209.226.175.18]>; + Tue, 19 Nov 2002 06:20:19 -0500 +From: Bill Page +Organization: Daneliuk & Page +To: +CC: +Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 6:20:19 -0500 +MIME-Version: 1.0 +Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 +Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit +Message-Id: <20021119112019.BHLR9064.tomts10-srv.bellnexxia.net@[209.226.175.18]> +Subject: [Axiom-developer] new Makefile.pamphlet problems +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Tim, + +I downloaded a new version of the source yesterday. I have +noticed that with the new organization of the makefile +with the platform specific files, the old methode of +restarting the make with + + make clean + +no longer works the way it did. I did not see this +documented in the noweave output. + +I am planning to create a platform specific makefile for +cygwin following the example in your makefile.pamphlet but +I find the documentation still a little thin about how this +is supposed to work. + +Here are a few more quick notes; + +1) The use of the 'strip' command causes trouble in the +make for noweb. There is a note to the effect that it is +necessary to comment out this line of the makefile in the +case of HPUX. It seems to apply to cygwin as well. The +problem is that cygwin executable files end with the +extension .exe but strip just takes the name given to it +and in true unix style this has no extension. + +2) cygwin cannot handle a copy to /dev/null. It complains +that it cannot create this file. This causes another +problem during the make of noweb. See the ELISP variable +in the makefile. But a cat > /dev/null does seem to work +as expected. + +Regards, +Bill Page. + + + + +From daly@idsi.net Tue Nov 19 06:40:13 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18E6jk-00034o-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 06:40:12 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18E6jf-00034S-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 06:40:11 -0500 +Received: from gnudist.gnu.org ([199.232.41.7]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18E6gX-0002qo-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 06:36:53 -0500 +Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.122]) + by gnudist.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18E6gW-0000As-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 06:36:52 -0500 +Received: from dialup-63.208.85.41.dial1.stamford1.level3.net ([63.208.85.41] helo=localhost.localdomain) + by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) + id 18E6gQ-0007Ex-00; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 03:36:46 -0800 +Received: (from root@localhost) + by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.6) id gAJBXO615426; + Tue, 19 Nov 2002 06:33:24 -0500 +Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 06:33:24 -0500 +Message-Id: <200211191133.gAJBXO615426@localhost.localdomain> +From: root +To: bill.page1@sympatico.ca +CC: daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Reply-to: daly@idsi.net +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: new Makefile.pamphlet problems +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Bill, + +Wow, creating a platform file. That's ambitious but I'm happy +to see you do it. Lets see if I can give you a few quick pointers: + +1) The top level Makefile now selects the platform based on the +SYS= variable. Thus you need to set a SYS=cygwin in the top level +default. This used to be parsed out of the SPAD variable (taking +the basename of the SPAD variable) but I've forgotten the magic +I used to make basename expand in the Makefile. Thus just setting +SPAD=......./cygwin used to be enough. I'll fix that eventually. + +2) the all: stanza (approx line 500 in Makefile.pamphlet) will +notangle out the appropriate platform-specific Makefile. For example, +if SYS=cygwin it will look for a chunk called <> +and extract it. Then it will invoke Make on the newly extracted +Makefile.cygwin. + +3) <> is responsible for setting the top-level +Makefile variables, setting up appropriate directories, setting +proper command defaults (e.g. strip -> echo) etc. + + +More later. I've got to go to work. +Keep up the good work. + +Tim + + + +From daly@idsi.net Tue Nov 19 07:06:42 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18E79O-0006ua-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 07:06:42 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18E79I-0006kr-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 07:06:40 -0500 +Received: from snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.62]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18E79I-0006eF-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 07:06:36 -0500 +Received: from dialup-63.208.85.41.dial1.stamford1.level3.net ([63.208.85.41] helo=localhost.localdomain) + by snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) + id 18E798-00066R-00; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 04:06:27 -0800 +Received: (from root@localhost) + by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.6) id gAJC32X15443; + Tue, 19 Nov 2002 07:03:02 -0500 +Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 07:03:02 -0500 +Message-Id: <200211191203.gAJC32X15443@localhost.localdomain> +From: root +To: bill.page1@sympatico.ca +CC: daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Reply-to: daly@idsi.net +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Makefile.pamphlet +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Bill, + +I still have a couple minutes before I leave for work.... + +To handle the strip problem properly you have to think globally. + +1) Find all instances of strip and replace them with ${STRIP} +2) Add STRIP=strip to ALL the platform-specific Makefiles. +3) Add STRIP=${STRIP} to the end of the ENV= line in each + platform specific Makefile + (this step is what propagates the variables to all of the + children. It creates an environment list for the child because + the shell allows the syntax + FOO=bar Baz + to define FOO in the environment for Baz. We use this fact) +4) Clone one of the platform specific Makefiles which seems + close to your platform. +5) Set all of the FOO= variable appropriately in your + platform specific Makefile +6) Set the STRIP= variable in your platform specific Makefile + to be STRIP=echo or some other null function. +7) Document everything you do in the pamphlet files + +Gotta go... + +Tim + + + +From daly@idsi.net Tue Nov 19 07:21:37 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18E7No-0006Ep-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 07:21:36 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18E7Nl-0006CE-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 07:21:35 -0500 +Received: from falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.74]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18E7Nk-00068Y-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 07:21:32 -0500 +Received: from dialup-63.208.85.41.dial1.stamford1.level3.net ([63.208.85.41] helo=localhost.localdomain) + by falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) + id 18E7Ne-0000w1-00; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 04:21:26 -0800 +Received: (from root@localhost) + by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.6) id gAJCI4x15454; + Tue, 19 Nov 2002 07:18:04 -0500 +Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 07:18:04 -0500 +Message-Id: <200211191218.gAJCI4x15454@localhost.localdomain> +From: root +To: bill.page1@sympatico.ca +CC: daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Reply-to: daly@idsi.net +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Makefile.pamphlet +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Bill, + +(one foot out the door....) + +Oh, yeah. You should be aware that things will start showing +up in the cygwin directory (e.g. obj/cygwin/... and mnt/cygwin/...) +as a side-effect of changing SYS= + +This is the intended effect. It has two implications. First, +we can build multiple platforms from the same files and second, +they can be kept in the same filesystems for distribution. + +Also, handle /dev/null just like strip. Make DEVNULL=/dev/null +and spread it around everywhere. Better yet, use DEVNULL=${TMP}/null +as ${TMP} is our guaranteed writable filesystem. + +Be very careful (i.e. anal) about where you put stuff. Read the +top level description of the directory structure and +understand the meaning of the 4 directories (src, int, obj and +mnt). The long term goal will be to ship a CD with src and int +already expanded and people will be able to create an obj and +mnt on their system and do a complete build. Thus, AFTER THE +FIRST BUILD, src and int are assumed read-only. + +(really gotta go) + +Tim + + + +From daly@idsi.net Tue Nov 19 20:17:15 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18EJUR-0006sF-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 20:17:15 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18EJUP-0006rt-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 20:17:14 -0500 +Received: from avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.50]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18EJUO-0006n0-00; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 20:17:12 -0500 +Received: from dialup-63.215.225.6.dial1.stamford1.level3.net ([63.215.225.6] helo=localhost.localdomain) + by avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) + id 18EJU9-00038O-00; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 17:16:58 -0800 +Received: (from root@localhost) + by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.6) id gAK1DWh16148; + Tue, 19 Nov 2002 20:13:32 -0500 +Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 20:13:32 -0500 +Message-Id: <200211200113.gAK1DWh16148@localhost.localdomain> +From: root +To: bill.page1@sympatico.ca +CC: daly@idsi.net, Joris.VanDerHoeven@math.u-psud.fr, + axiom-developer@nongnu.org, texmacs-dev@gnu.org +Subject: [Axiom-developer] visual literate programming +Reply-to: daly@idsi.net +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Bill and Joris, + +I've signed up on the mailing list for TeXmacs and I downloaded +the latest version to try it on the pamphlet files. I tried it +against the examples +http://home.earthlink.net/~jgg964/dhmatrix.pamphlet +http://home.earthlink.net/~jgg964/Makefile.pamphlet +http://home.earthlink.net/~jgg964/Magman.pamphlet + +There are several things failing. \subsubsection is wrong. +\cite is wrong and the whole biblio section is broken. +Worst of all is that the <> chunks of code are +mangled. I also tried it against the dhmatrix.tex, etc +files and it still comes out bent. However, the math +comes out beatifully. It does know quite a few of the +tex directives. It ran Axiom fine from within the buffer. + +This isn't a criticism of TeXmacs. It just means we need to +work together to improve the tool and make pamphlet files +into a "standard" for TeXmacs. There are a lot of possible +directions including things like adding an automatic call +to notangle, nountangle so code can be maintained directly +from the pamphlet, including invoking the compiler on the +untangled code. It would be nice to be able to follow +\cite references to other pamphlets. TeXmacs needs to +really understand the noweb chunks. + +I really would like to make literate programs be the only +"source" files and have the rest happen by magic. + +Tim + + + +From daly@idsi.net Tue Nov 19 20:30:09 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18EJgv-0003jh-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 20:30:09 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18EJgs-0003gO-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 20:30:08 -0500 +Received: from swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.123]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18EJgr-0003eV-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 20:30:05 -0500 +Received: from dialup-63.215.225.6.dial1.stamford1.level3.net ([63.215.225.6] helo=localhost.localdomain) + by swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) + id 18EJgp-0005dB-00; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 17:30:03 -0800 +Received: (from root@localhost) + by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.6) id gAK1Qdo16165; + Tue, 19 Nov 2002 20:26:39 -0500 +Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 20:26:39 -0500 +Message-Id: <200211200126.gAK1Qdo16165@localhost.localdomain> +From: root +To: nr@eecs.harvard.edu +CC: daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Reply-to: daly@idsi.net +Subject: [Axiom-developer] [axiom] Undefined Chunks behavior +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +re: awk filter. + +Thanks. I've avoided shell programming for all these years and +virtually never use awk. Changing the C code was my only viable option. +I'd already modified the C code by the time your first reply arrived. +Your solution is clearly better. + +Tim + + +=================================================================== + + > Actually, it appears that the correct fix is to modify modules.c + > (line 201 in modules.nw, line 117 in modules.c) to create a new, + > dummy Module that expands into <> if foo is not found and + > then calls expand on that. + +Absolutely *don't* do this. It is not necessary. + + > I don't see how to do this with filters. Perhaps I'm missing something. + +Write an awk script that copies all lines to stdout, and in the +process, identifies each @use that has no corresponding @defn. +For each such @use emit this code chunk: + +@begin code +@defn this is my text +@text <> +@end code + + + +Norman + +=================================================================== + + > Norman, + > + > I have included two patch files you can apply to change the + > behavior for undefined chunks. + +What this problem needs is ten lines of awk. Here's your noweb filter: + + #!/bin/sh + + awk ' + /^@use / { uses [substr($0, 6)] = 1 } + /^@defn / { defns[substr($0, 7)] = 1 } + { print } + END { + for (i in uses) + if (!defns[i]) + printf "@begin code\n@defn %s\n@nl\n@text <<%s>>\n@end code\n", i, i + }' + + exit 0 + + # test with + + sed '1,/test with/d' $0 | notangle -filter $0 + + <<*>>= + return x << 2 >> 2; + @ + + + +From TeXmacs@math.u-psud.fr Wed Nov 20 06:31:22 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18ET4k-0006kP-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 06:31:22 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18ET4f-0006hh-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 06:31:21 -0500 +Received: from matups.math.u-psud.fr ([129.175.50.4]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18ET4e-0006gJ-00; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 06:31:16 -0500 +Received: from anh.math.u-psud.fr (anh.math.u-psud.fr [129.175.50.156]) + by matups.math.u-psud.fr (8.11.6/jtpda-5.3.3) with ESMTP id gAKBV9j17953 + ; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 12:31:13 +0100 (MET) +Received: from anh (anh [129.175.50.156]) + by anh.math.u-psud.fr (Postfix) with SMTP + id 168F5B2C8; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 12:31:07 +0100 (MET) +Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 12:31:07 +0100 (MET) +From: Joris van der Hoeven +X-Sender: texmacs@anh +To: texmacs-dev@gnu.org +Cc: bill.page1@sympatico.ca, daly@idsi.net, Joris.VanDerHoeven@math.u-psud.fr, + axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Subject: Re: [Texmacs-dev] [Axiom-developer] visual literate programming +In-Reply-To: <200211200113.gAK1DWh16148@localhost.localdomain> +Message-ID: +MIME-Version: 1.0 +Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Hi Tim, + +> I've signed up on the mailing list for TeXmacs and I downloaded +> the latest version to try it on the pamphlet files. I tried it +> against the examples +> http://home.earthlink.net/~jgg964/dhmatrix.pamphlet +> http://home.earthlink.net/~jgg964/Makefile.pamphlet +> http://home.earthlink.net/~jgg964/Magman.pamphlet + +Is the pamphlet format described somewhere? +It probably just uses a particular style file. + +> There are several things failing. \subsubsection is wrong. +> \cite is wrong and the whole biblio section is broken. +> Worst of all is that the <> chunks of code are +> mangled. I also tried it against the dhmatrix.tex, etc +> files and it still comes out bent. However, the math +> comes out beatifully. It does know quite a few of the +> tex directives. It ran Axiom fine from within the buffer. + +I mainly had problems with Makefile.pamphlet. +Importing verbatim text is dangerous with TeXmacs, +if you created a new environment for this: +as soon as you hit a $, TeXmacs can get confused. + +I did not see any problems with \subsubsection and \cite. +It should not be too hard to fix the other problems. + +> This isn't a criticism of TeXmacs. It just means we need to +> work together to improve the tool and make pamphlet files +> into a "standard" for TeXmacs. There are a lot of possible +> directions including things like adding an automatic call +> to notangle, nountangle so code can be maintained directly +> from the pamphlet, including invoking the compiler on the +> untangled code. It would be nice to be able to follow +> \cite references to other pamphlets. TeXmacs needs to +> really understand the noweb chunks. + +Yes, we can take a look at this. + +> I really would like to make literate programs be the only +> "source" files and have the rest happen by magic. + +Indeed. + + + + +From daly@idsi.net Wed Nov 20 07:40:20 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18EU9U-0000Xm-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 07:40:20 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18EU9O-0000QC-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 07:40:19 -0500 +Received: from conure.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.54]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18EU9J-0000Gm-00; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 07:40:09 -0500 +Received: from dialup-65.59.78.33.dial1.stamford1.level3.net ([65.59.78.33] helo=localhost.localdomain) + by conure.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) + id 18EU9G-0002zr-00; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 04:40:06 -0800 +Received: (from root@localhost) + by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.6) id gAKCadI17167; + Wed, 20 Nov 2002 07:36:39 -0500 +Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 07:36:39 -0500 +Message-Id: <200211201236.gAKCadI17167@localhost.localdomain> +From: root +To: TeXmacs@math.u-psud.fr +CC: texmacs-dev@gnu.org, bill.page1@sympatico.ca, daly@idsi.net, + Joris.VanDerHoeven@math.u-psud.fr, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Subject: [Axiom-developer] (no subject) +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +In-reply-to: (message from + Joris van der Hoeven on Wed, 20 Nov 2002 12:31:07 +0100 (MET)) +Subject: Re: [Texmacs-dev] [Axiom-developer] visual literate programming +Reply-to: daly@idsi.net +References: +--text follows this line-- +Joris, + +At the moment there are no formal requirements for a pamphlet file. +I hope to develop them in the future. In particular the plans call +for required sections on test cases, user help, examples, etc. which +will be "exploded" to various parts of the filesystem. The only case +used at the moment is in .c.pamphlet files which contain both the +.c and the .h code, both of which are broken out at compile time. +Also the cross-reference section will be used to automatically +load required pamphlets. + +I'll retry the \subsubsection and \cite cases. I could easily have +screwed something up. I think that we can recognize the code +chunking mechanism in noweave's output and have TeXmacs handle it +properly. I'm not sure of all of the details of TexMacs or noweb +but we'll figure it out. + +Norman's noweb wraps code in the sequence, causing a "definition" +<>= +code +... +code +@ +where everything outside the <<>>= ... @ is considered text. +Code between the boundaries is basically a verbatim environment. + +Code definitions are "used" by specifying: +<> +Notice the lack of trailing equal sign. + +Joris, can you point me at some specific part of the TeXmacs docs +that will help us develop a pamphlet "style" file. A style file +that properly handle noweb vanilla output would be quite useful. + +Tim + + + +From bill.page1@sympatico.ca Wed Nov 20 11:40:16 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18EXtf-0000oN-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 11:40:15 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18EXtY-0000fy-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 11:40:14 -0500 +Received: from tomts11.bellnexxia.net ([209.226.175.55] helo=tomts11-srv.bellnexxia.net) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18EXtW-0000fH-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 11:40:06 -0500 +Received: from [209.226.175.18] by tomts11-srv.bellnexxia.net + (InterMail vM.5.01.04.19 201-253-122-122-119-20020516) with SMTP + id <20021120164005.QHTP23632.tomts11-srv.bellnexxia.net@[209.226.175.18]>; + Wed, 20 Nov 2002 11:40:05 -0500 +From: Bill Page +Organization: Daneliuk & Page +To: +CC: , +Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 11:40:05 -0500 +MIME-Version: 1.0 +Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 +Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit +Message-Id: <20021120164005.QHTP23632.tomts11-srv.bellnexxia.net@[209.226.175.18]> +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: GCL on Cygwin for Axiom +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Tim, + +Damn. I am sorry to hear that Schelter is not still +available. I guess the Internet hasn't quite progressed to +that stage yet... And it's a reminder to me that there is +some urgency in this project to document Axiom and make it +available. + +What I meant to write was GCL (Schelter's lisp), not GCC - +It was late and I was frustrated. I am more awake not. + +Yes, GCC runs just fine on Cygwin for me but I do not have +a running version of GCL. In comparison to CCL, GCL is a +monster! Nearly everything I have tried to do in order to +make a running version of GCL under cygwin has failed with +obviously incorrect and untested code C coding. Getting CCL +to run was a piece of cake compared to this! + +Does your offer to help extend to GCL? I have so many +problems and have tried so many things that it is a bit +hard to know where to start asking questions. But ... + +1) First things: The version 2.4.1 of GCL that is in your +CVS is a bit out of date. The current version is 2.4.3. +And even the version of GMP (GNU math package) that is +in 2.4.3 is quite out of date. The most recent version +of GMP is 4.1 + +2) Via the web, I found that it is known that version 2.4.1 +of GCL is missing some critical files for the Cywin build, +specifically 'unexnt.c'. So after several more failed +attempts witn 2.4.1, I download 2.4.3 and tried to compile +it. unexnt.c is there, but there are a whole host of other +problems, many of which seem to relate to GMP. So I +downloaded 4.1 of GMP. That built just fine on it's own +and after some fiddling I finally got GCL to link with it. +After alot of fixing other small things, I finally got to +the final load step for GCL only to have the the loader +blow up with a segment fault and stack dump ... jeez. + +3) There is a "pre-release" version of GCL posted at the +Savannah site which is supposed into compile into native +Window's application with the mingw32 version of GCC. +Perhaps that is where I will try to go next. + +4) But first a few more attempts. I am in the middle of +getting the missing unexnt.c file from the newest version +of GCL and using it with the older version. I will let you +know how far this one goes. + +Cheers, +Bill Page. + +> +> From: root +> Date: 2002/11/20 Wed AM 07:15:24 EST +> To: bill.page1@sympatico.ca +> CC: schelter@mail.ma.utexas.edu, daly@idsi.net +> Subject: Re: GCL on Cygwin for Axiom +> +> Bill, +> +> Schelter's dead. But if you do get an answer let me know :-) +> Did you want help with GCC (Gnu Compiler Collection) or +> GCL (Gnu Common Lisp)? +> +> I thought you had GCC running. How can I help? +> +> Tim +> + + + + +From rubey@labri.fr Wed Nov 20 11:54:10 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18EY78-0000Sl-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 11:54:10 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18EY74-0000Q3-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 11:54:09 -0500 +Received: from iona.labri.fr ([147.210.8.143]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18EY74-0000Pm-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 11:54:06 -0500 +Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) + by iona.labri.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP + id 804D07E6A; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 17:54:04 +0100 (CET) +Received: from invite02 (invite02.labri.fr [147.210.9.236]) + by iona.labri.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP + id 778EE7D61; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 17:54:03 +0100 (CET) +Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 17:54:05 +0100 (CET) +From: Martin RUBEY +To: Bill Page +Cc: daly@idsi.net, +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Re: GCL on Cygwin for Axiom +In-Reply-To: <20021120164005.QHTP23632.tomts11-srv.bellnexxia.net@[209.226.175.18]> +Message-ID: +MIME-Version: 1.0 +Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII +X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS new-20020517 +X-Razor-id: 7bdf9690fdd11a679581d15a196595f9571c37c8 +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +> 3) There is a "pre-release" version of GCL posted at the +> Savannah site which is supposed into compile into native +> Window's application with the mingw32 version of GCC. +> Perhaps that is where I will try to go next. + +I think this is the way to go. And I think that Mike Thomas + is the one to ask, if there are Windows +Problems. There is a Mingw binary availaible on +ftp://ftp.gnu.org/pub/gnu/gcl/cvs/ + +(but I do not have windows) + +Camm Maguire will also be glad to help, I think + +wou might want to look at + +http://mail.gnu.org/pipermail/gcl-devel/2002-September/001084.html + +Martin + + + + +From bill.page1@sympatico.ca Wed Nov 20 12:13:30 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18EYPp-0000E9-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 12:13:29 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18EYPi-0000Ad-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 12:13:28 -0500 +Received: from tomts25.bellnexxia.net ([209.226.175.188] helo=tomts25-srv.bellnexxia.net) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18EYPi-00006q-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 12:13:22 -0500 +Received: from [209.226.175.18] by tomts25-srv.bellnexxia.net + (InterMail vM.5.01.04.19 201-253-122-122-119-20020516) with SMTP + id <20021120171318.WELE1456.tomts25-srv.bellnexxia.net@[209.226.175.18]>; + Wed, 20 Nov 2002 12:13:18 -0500 +From: Bill Page +Organization: Daneliuk & Page +To: Martin RUBEY +CC: ,, +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: GCL on Cygwin for Axiom +Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 12:13:19 -0500 +MIME-Version: 1.0 +Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 +Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit +Message-Id: <20021120171318.WELE1456.tomts25-srv.bellnexxia.net@[209.226.175.18]> +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +On 2002/11/20 Wed AM 11:54:05 EST Martin RUBEY + wrote: + +> .. +> > 3) There is a "pre-release" version of GCL posted at the +> > Savannah site which is supposed into compile into native +> > Window's application with the mingw32 version of GCC. +> > Perhaps that is where I will try to go next. +> +> I think this is the way to go. And I think that Mike +> Thomas is the one to +> ask, if there are Windows Problems. There is a Mingw +> binary availaible on +> ftp://ftp.gnu.org/pub/gnu/gcl/cvs/ +> +> (but I do not have windows) +> +> Camm Maguire will also be glad to help, I think +> +> you might want to look at +> +> http://mail.gnu.org/pipermail/gcl-devel/2002-September/001084.html +> + +Excellent! Thank you for this information. My most +recent attempt to build a Cygwin version just failed +so Mingw native Windows it is ... + +BTW, if it is true what Mike Thomas says that: "A port +to Cygwin would be trivial ...", then he's a much better +hacker than I am! + +Cheers, +Bill Page. + + + + +From bill.page1@sympatico.ca Wed Nov 20 12:22:13 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18EYYH-0007yR-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 12:22:13 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18EYYB-0007wu-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 12:22:12 -0500 +Received: from tomts11.bellnexxia.net ([209.226.175.55] helo=tomts11-srv.bellnexxia.net) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18EYYA-0007wX-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 12:22:06 -0500 +Received: from [209.226.175.18] by tomts11-srv.bellnexxia.net + (InterMail vM.5.01.04.19 201-253-122-122-119-20020516) with SMTP + id <20021120172205.RMFM23632.tomts11-srv.bellnexxia.net@[209.226.175.18]>; + Wed, 20 Nov 2002 12:22:05 -0500 +From: Bill Page +Organization: Daneliuk & Page +To: +CC: +Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 12:22:05 -0500 +MIME-Version: 1.0 +Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 +Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit +Message-Id: <20021120172205.RMFM23632.tomts11-srv.bellnexxia.net@[209.226.175.18]> +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: GCL on Cygwin for Axiom +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Background. + +> +> From: Bill Page +> Date: 2002/11/20 Wed AM 11:40:05 EST +> To: +> CC: , +> Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: GCL on Cygwin for Axiom +> +> Tim, +> +> Damn. I am sorry to hear that Schelter is not still +> available. I guess the Internet hasn't quite progressed to +> that stage yet... And it's a reminder to me that there is +> some urgency in this project to document Axiom and make it +> available. +> +> What I meant to write was GCL (Schelter's lisp), not GCC - +> It was late and I was frustrated. I am more awake not. +> +> Yes, GCC runs just fine on Cygwin for me but I do not have +> a running version of GCL. In comparison to CCL, GCL is a +> monster! Nearly everything I have tried to do in order to +> make a running version of GCL under cygwin has failed with +> obviously incorrect and untested code C coding. Getting +> CCL to run was a piece of cake compared to this! +> +> Does your offer to help extend to GCL? I have so many +> problems and have tried so many things that it is a bit +> hard to know where to start asking questions. But ... +> +> 1) First things: The version 2.4.1 of GCL that is in your +> CVS is a bit out of date. The current version is 2.4.3. +> And even the version of GMP (GNU math package) that is +> in 2.4.3 is quite out of date. The most recent version +> of GMP is 4.1 +> +> 2) Via the web, I found that it is known that version +> 2.4.1 of GCL is missing some critical files for the Cywin +> build, specifically 'unexnt.c'. So after several more +> failed attempts witn 2.4.1, I download 2.4.3 and tried to +> compile it. unexnt.c is there, but there are a whole host +> of other problems, many of which seem to relate to GMP. +> So I downloaded 4.1 of GMP. That built just fine on it's +> own and after some fiddling I finally got GCL to link +> with it. After alot of fixing other small things, I +> finally got to the final load step for GCL only to have +> the the loader blow up with a segment fault and stack +> dump ... jeez. +> +> 3) There is a "pre-release" version of GCL posted at the +> Savannah site which is supposed into compile into native +> Window's application with the mingw32 version of GCC. +> Perhaps that is where I will try to go next. +> +> 4) But first a few more attempts. I am in the middle of +> getting the missing unexnt.c file from the newest version +> of GCL and using it with the older version. I will let you +> know how far this one goes. +> +> Cheers, +> Bill Page. +> +> > +> > From: root +> > Date: 2002/11/20 Wed AM 07:15:24 EST +> > To: bill.page1@sympatico.ca +> > CC: schelter@mail.ma.utexas.edu, daly@idsi.net +> > Subject: Re: GCL on Cygwin for Axiom +> > +> > Bill, +> > +> > Schelter's dead. But if you do get an answer let me +> > know :-) +> > Did you want help with GCC (Gnu Compiler Collection) or +> > GCL (Gnu Common Lisp)? +> > +> > I thought you had GCC running. How can I help? +> > +> > Tim +> > +> +> _______________________________________________ +> Axiom-developer mailing list +> Axiom-developer@nongnu.org +> http://mail.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/axiom-developer +> + +> +> From: Bill Page +> Date: 2002/11/20 Wed AM 04:03:37 EST +> To: +> CC: +> Subject: GCL on Cygwin for Axiom +> +> Dr. Schelter; +> +> I am working with Tim Daly on the Axiom open source +> project. One of the tasks that I have taken on is the +> implementation of a Windows/Cygwin version of Axiom. At +> the present time it is planned that Axiom will run on +> several different Lisp platforms including GCC and the +> recently made publicly available Codemist CCL interpreter. +> +> Tim is proceeding with porting the Axiom code to the GCC +> environment under Linux but has run into a few initial +> complications with the use of CCL. I have been successful +> at building CCL under the Windows/Cygwin environment but +> am having a "devil" of a time trying to install GCC on +> this platform. I have not been able to find any +> combination of recent versions of both Cygwin and GCC +> and/or choice of options for which I can successfully +> prepare the GCC executables. +> +> I have tried my best of obtain more information about the +> available operational versions via the web, but so far I +> have not found an answer. I would very much appreciate +> your recommendations on how to approach this. I have +> heard that there is a "native" Windows version of GCC +> available which will compile under Mingw32. This version +> would likely be compatible with our goals for Axiom. +> Could you tell me who I might contact concerning the +> current status of the Mingw32 version and/or a +> Windows/Cygwin version. +> +> Thanks for your time. +> +> Sincerely, +> Bill Page. +> +> http://savannah.nongnu.org/projects/axiom/ +> +> + + + + +From daly@idsi.net Wed Nov 20 16:20:56 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18EcHI-0008T5-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 16:20:56 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18EcH9-0008Fl-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 16:20:55 -0500 +Received: from scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.49]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18EcH8-0008Eh-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 16:20:46 -0500 +Received: from dialup-65.59.78.33.dial1.stamford1.level3.net ([65.59.78.33] helo=localhost.localdomain) + by scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) + id 18EcH3-0002UP-00; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 13:20:41 -0800 +Received: (from root@localhost) + by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.6) id gAKLHAT17302; + Wed, 20 Nov 2002 16:17:10 -0500 +Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 16:17:10 -0500 +Message-Id: <200211202117.gAKLHAT17302@localhost.localdomain> +From: root +To: bill.page1@sympatico.ca +CC: rubey@labri.fr, daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org, + miketh@brisbane.paradigmgeo.com +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Re: GCL on Cygwin for Axiom +Reply-to: daly@idsi.net +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +re: trivial port of gcl.... + +Not at all. Since gcl uses the native loader formats there is +always an issue of developing a loader that understand the +format for a particular platform. Bill and I struggled with +this whole issue on AIX for the RS/6000. + +Tim + + + +From bill.page1@sympatico.ca Wed Nov 20 13:09:28 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18EZI0-0006Qs-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 13:09:28 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18EZHx-0006Ks-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 13:09:26 -0500 +Received: from tomts12.bellnexxia.net ([209.226.175.56] helo=tomts12-srv.bellnexxia.net) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18EZHw-0006K4-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 13:09:24 -0500 +Received: from [209.226.175.18] by tomts12-srv.bellnexxia.net + (InterMail vM.5.01.04.19 201-253-122-122-119-20020516) with SMTP + id <20021120180922.SQIM1843.tomts12-srv.bellnexxia.net@[209.226.175.18]>; + Wed, 20 Nov 2002 13:09:22 -0500 +From: Bill Page +Organization: Daneliuk & Page +To: +CC: , +Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 13:09:23 -0500 +MIME-Version: 1.0 +Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 +Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit +Message-Id: <20021120180922.SQIM1843.tomts12-srv.bellnexxia.net@[209.226.175.18]> +Subject: [Axiom-developer] GCL on Cygwin for Axiom +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Hello, + +I recently downloaded gcl-cvs-20021014-mingw32.zip from + ftp://ftp.gnu.org/pub/gnu/gcl/cvs/ + +I was hoping to be able to run make with this on my +Windows/Cygwin system but the only makefile I can find +is in + + gclm\lib\gcl-2.5.0\gcl-tk + +and that one does not work with the current directory +configuration. + +Could someone please point me in the correct direction +for a complete source distribution that can be built and +run under Cygwin (but not to run with the Cygwin dll - +that's another issue). + +Regards, +Bill Page. + +http://savannah.nongnu.org/projects/axiom/ + + + + + +From daly@idsi.net Wed Nov 20 16:49:10 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18Ecic-0001qG-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 16:49:10 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18EciU-0001lX-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 16:49:08 -0500 +Received: from conure.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.54]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18EciT-0001lB-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 16:49:01 -0500 +Received: from dialup-65.59.78.33.dial1.stamford1.level3.net ([65.59.78.33] helo=localhost.localdomain) + by conure.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) + id 18EciK-0001Z6-00; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 13:48:52 -0800 +Received: (from root@localhost) + by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.6) id gAKLjPG17336; + Wed, 20 Nov 2002 16:45:25 -0500 +Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 16:45:25 -0500 +Message-Id: <200211202145.gAKLjPG17336@localhost.localdomain> +From: root +To: bill.page1@sympatico.ca +CC: daly@idsi.net, wfs@mail.ma.utexas.edu, axiom-developer@nongnu.org, + Camm Maguire +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Re: GCL on Cygwin for Axiom +Reply-to: daly@idsi.net +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +> Damn. I am sorry to hear that Schelter is not still +> available. I guess the Internet hasn't quite progressed to +> that stage yet... And it's a reminder to me that there is +> some urgency in this project to document Axiom and make it +> available. + +Actually Bill's death is what set me off to try to open +source Axiom. He and I worked together on AKCL (pre-GCL) +and I was impressed with him. + +As to the urgency question, yeah, I'm gettin' old and the males +in my clan die young. I'm writing as fast as I can :-) + +> What I meant to write was GCL (Schelter's lisp), not GCC - +> It was late and I was frustrated. I am more awake not. + +grin. either you used a relatively recent form of negation +(trailing not) or you had a typo and meant now. either way +it was funny. + +> Yes, GCC runs just fine on Cygwin for me but I do not have +> a running version of GCL. In comparison to CCL, GCL is a +> monster! Nearly everything I have tried to do in order to +> make a running version of GCL under cygwin has failed with +> obviously incorrect and untested code C coding. Getting CCL +> to run was a piece of cake compared to this! + +CCL is supposed to be cross-platform by design and I believe +was ported to Cygwin before. GCL is much more platform specific +and depends on the GCC environment for portability. I'll raise +the priority of getting CCL running from the Makefiles so you +can continue to contribute. + +> Does your offer to help extend to GCL? I have so many +> problems and have tried so many things that it is a bit +> hard to know where to start asking questions. But ... + +sure. I'll help any way I can. + +> 1) First things: The version 2.4.1 of GCL that is in your +> CVS is a bit out of date. The current version is 2.4.3. +> And even the version of GMP (GNU math package) that is +> in 2.4.3 is quite out of date. The most recent version +> of GMP is 4.1 + +The point of the zips directory is to keep a version that +is known to work. Things die of code-rot (that is, somebody +"upgrades" their subsystem, like C++ did, and everybody downstream +is broken). I wanted to make sure there was at least a working +version available. I'll download and test 2.4.3 before I put +it in the zips. + +As for the GMP connection you should tweak +Camm Maguire about it. + +> 2) Via the web, I found that it is known that version 2.4.1 +> of GCL is missing some critical files for the Cywin build, +> specifically 'unexnt.c'. So after several more failed +> attempts witn 2.4.1, I download 2.4.3 and tried to compile +> it. unexnt.c is there, but there are a whole host of other +> problems, many of which seem to relate to GMP. So I +> downloaded 4.1 of GMP. That built just fine on it's own +> and after some fiddling I finally got GCL to link with it. +> After alot of fixing other small things, I finally got to +> the final load step for GCL only to have the the loader +> blow up with a segment fault and stack dump ... jeez. + +Read the GMP pamphlet files. I'm sure they explain what they +are trying to do well enough to fix it :-) Methinks you're +on the foreskin of technology here. Try restoring the clean +2.4.3 version, run a make and send me the output trace. I'll +look at it and hopefuly have something insightful to say. + +> 3) There is a "pre-release" version of GCL posted at the +> Savannah site which is supposed into compile into native +> Window's application with the mingw32 version of GCC. +> Perhaps that is where I will try to go next. + +mingw32? Don't know what that is. + +> 4) But first a few more attempts. I am in the middle of +> getting the missing unexnt.c file from the newest version +> of GCL and using it with the older version. I will let you +> know how far this one goes. + +good luck. Let me know if I can help. Send console traces. +I'm pushing on the next layer of the system but I'll give +some thought to the CCL issue. + +Tim + + + + + +From miketh@brisbane.paradigmgeo.com Wed Nov 20 18:29:36 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18EeGq-0006oB-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 18:28:36 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18EeGk-0006i9-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 18:28:33 -0500 +Received: from [203.52.176.30] (helo=br-dmz.paradigmgeo.com) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18EeGj-0006eU-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 18:28:29 -0500 +Received: from nasturtium (br-fw.brisbane.ParadigmGeo.com [203.52.176.26]) + by br-dmz.paradigmgeo.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with SMTP id gAKNGsD03011; + Thu, 21 Nov 2002 09:16:54 +1000 +Message-ID: <00a601c290ec$c40c57a0$0cb4a8c0@nasturtium> +Reply-To: "Mike Thomas" +From: "Mike Thomas" +To: "Bill Page" , "Martin RUBEY" +Cc: , +References: <20021120171318.WELE1456.tomts25-srv.bellnexxia.net@[209.226.175.18]> +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Re: GCL on Cygwin for Axiom +Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 09:30:04 +1000 +MIME-Version: 1.0 +Content-Type: text/plain; + charset="iso-8859-1" +Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit +X-Priority: 3 +X-MSMail-Priority: Normal +X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 +X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Hi there. + +> BTW, if it is true what Mike Thomas says that: "A port +> to Cygwin would be trivial ...", then he's a much better +> hacker than I am! + +Ahhh... you'll have to be much more sophisticated than that to get me to do +the job!!! + +Cheers + +Mike Thomas. + + + + + +From miketh@brisbane.paradigmgeo.com Wed Nov 20 18:49:47 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18EebK-0007ua-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 18:49:46 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18EebH-0007rs-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 18:49:45 -0500 +Received: from [203.52.176.30] (helo=br-dmz.paradigmgeo.com) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18EebG-0007ql-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 18:49:42 -0500 +Received: from nasturtium (br-fw.brisbane.ParadigmGeo.com [203.52.176.26]) + by br-dmz.paradigmgeo.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with SMTP id gAKNcLD03162; + Thu, 21 Nov 2002 09:38:21 +1000 +Message-ID: <010201c290ef$c366e880$0cb4a8c0@nasturtium> +Reply-To: "Mike Thomas" +From: "Mike Thomas" +To: +Cc: , +Subject: Fw: [Axiom-developer] Re: GCL on Cygwin for Axiom +Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 09:51:31 +1000 +MIME-Version: 1.0 +Content-Type: text/plain; + charset="iso-8859-1" +Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit +X-Priority: 3 +X-MSMail-Priority: Normal +X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 +X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +My first attempt bounced from axiom-developer even though the other went +through?? + +----- Original Message ----- +From: "Mike Thomas" +To: ; +Cc: ; ; ; + +Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 9:25 AM +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Re: GCL on Cygwin for Axiom + + +> Hi there. +> +> Below please find an attempt to discourage the development of a Cygwin +> version of GCL and in the interests of intellectual freedom, "paper +napkin" +> instructions on how to go about it if you decide to do so. +> +> > re: trivial port of gcl.... +> > +> > Not at all. Since gcl uses the native loader formats there is +> > always an issue of developing a loader that understand the +> > format for a particular platform. Bill and I struggled with +> > this whole issue on AIX for the RS/6000. +> +> +> REBUTTAL +> +> Fortunately, Cygwin and Mingw32 use the same binary format and GNU +binutils +> (modulo Cygwin Unix emulation) so as far as I know that is not a problem +> here. +> +> +> WHY NOT TO DO A GCL CYGWIN PORT +> +> I think that a Cygwin version will not buy you very much functionality and +> is likely to be slower where Unix emulation is used. You will also have +the +> usual conflicts between Cygwin application paths and Windows paths, drives +> mounted as text mode etc. +> +> More importantly, it will also be yet another branch of the code that +> someone will have to maintain and package, which is a problem as it stands +> because very few people seem to be interested in supporting GCL on +Windows. +> Note that most of the inherently difficult outstanding problems on Mingw32 +> are going to be the same on Cygwin - BFD linking comes to mind. +> +> On a final note, it might be worthwhile checking out ECL ( +> http://ww.telent.net/cliki/ECL ), which allegedly supports Cygwin. ECL +is +> very closely related to GCL/AKCL. +> +> +> HOW TO START A CYGWIN PORT OF GCL +> +> Having said that, off the top of my head here is what I believe you would +> need to do to port GCL to Cygwin: +> +> - Get the latest source from CVS (see the GCL web site +> http://savannah.gnu.org/projects/gcl/ ) +> +> - Copy the files "h/mingw.*" to "h/cygwin.*". Check that they make sense +in +> the context of Cygwin and minimise modifications until you have found a +> specific reason for doing so when trying to compile and run GCL. +> +> - Grep the source for __MINGW32__ and WIN32 and check that the code does +> what you would want then add the __CYGWIN__ macro in places where Cygwin +> specific changes are required. I have left the road open for Cygwin and +> other Windows compilers through the convention that _WIN32 denotes code +> which will work under any Windows compiler, and in other cases the +compiler +> specific macro is used. +> +> - Ensure that file opening is forced to binary mode so that when object +> loading occurs the object files are interpreted as binary rather than +> textual data (see "o/main.c": +> ... +> #ifdef _WIN32 +> _fmode = _O_BINARY; +> #endif +> ... +> ie if Cygwin doesn't support _fmode you'll have to find another way. +> +> - check that configure.in does the right thing for Cygwin. +> +> - try building and make further plans based on the outcome. +> +> +> +> Cheers and best of luck +> +> Mike Thomas. +> +> + + + + +From daly@idsi.net Wed Nov 20 19:49:37 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18EfXE-00020B-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 19:49:36 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18EfXC-0001uf-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 19:49:35 -0500 +Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.122]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18EfXC-0001s6-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 19:49:34 -0500 +Received: from dialup-65.59.78.33.dial1.stamford1.level3.net ([65.59.78.33] helo=localhost.localdomain) + by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) + id 18EfX6-0003KL-00; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 16:49:29 -0800 +Received: (from root@localhost) + by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.6) id gAL0k4i01719; + Wed, 20 Nov 2002 19:46:04 -0500 +Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 19:46:04 -0500 +Message-Id: <200211210046.gAL0k4i01719@localhost.localdomain> +From: root +To: bill.page1@sympatico.ca +Cc: daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Reply-to: daly@idsi.net +Subject: [Axiom-developer] gcl 2.4.3 +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Bill, + +I've checked out gcl 2.4.3 and it works. I'll be updating the +tenkan cvs with the new version shortly. + +Tim + + + +From daly@idsi.net Wed Nov 20 20:15:49 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18Efwa-0001Ro-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 20:15:48 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18EfwY-0001Pm-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 20:15:47 -0500 +Received: from hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.22]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18EfwX-0001Mq-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 20:15:45 -0500 +Received: from dialup-65.59.78.33.dial1.stamford1.level3.net ([65.59.78.33] helo=localhost.localdomain) + by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) + id 18EfwU-0003Ut-00; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 17:15:42 -0800 +Received: (from root@localhost) + by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.6) id gAL1CGg01736; + Wed, 20 Nov 2002 20:12:16 -0500 +Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 20:12:16 -0500 +Message-Id: <200211210112.gAL1CGg01736@localhost.localdomain> +From: root +To: bill.page1@sympatico.ca +Cc: daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Reply-to: daly@idsi.net +Subject: [Axiom-developer] gcl 2.4.3 +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Bill, + +Ah, I lied. I ran into the _Bool issue with 2.4.3 also. +I'll see if I can figure out a patch. +Until then lets stick with 2.4.1 + +Tim + + + +From daly@idsi.net Wed Nov 20 20:33:29 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18EgDh-0000zq-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 20:33:29 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18EgDe-0000y0-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 20:33:28 -0500 +Received: from snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.62]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18EgDe-0000xt-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 20:33:26 -0500 +Received: from dialup-65.59.78.33.dial1.stamford1.level3.net ([65.59.78.33] helo=localhost.localdomain) + by snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) + id 18EgDb-0004UU-00; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 17:33:24 -0800 +Received: (from root@localhost) + by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.6) id gAL1TxZ01750; + Wed, 20 Nov 2002 20:29:59 -0500 +Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 20:29:59 -0500 +Message-Id: <200211210129.gAL1TxZ01750@localhost.localdomain> +From: root +To: bill.page1@sympatico.ca +Cc: daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Reply-to: daly@idsi.net +Subject: [Axiom-developer] gcl 2.4.3 +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Bill, + +I've done a small amount of checking on the GCL/Cygwin issue. +GCL looks like it knows about Cygwin. Check configure.in +and you'll see: + i*cygwin*) +on line 488. +What is the result of this test? (gcc -v | fgrep ming) + +Tim + + + +From camm@enhanced.com Wed Nov 20 20:35:24 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18EgFY-0001YA-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 20:35:24 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18EgAx-00084E-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 20:30:48 -0500 +Received: from h-66-134-96-17.phlapafg.covad.net ([66.134.96.17] helo=intech19.enhanced.com) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18EgAw-00080T-00; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 20:30:39 -0500 +Received: from camm by intech19.enhanced.com with local (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) + id 18EgAt-0000xd-00; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 20:30:35 -0500 +To: Bill Page +Cc: , , gcl-devel@gnu.org +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Re: GCL on Cygwin for Axiom +References: <20021120172205.RMFM23632.tomts11-srv.bellnexxia.net@[209.226.175.18]> +From: Camm Maguire +Date: 20 Nov 2002 20:30:35 -0500 +In-Reply-To: Bill Page's message of "Wed, 20 Nov 2002 12:22:05 -0500" +Message-ID: <541y5fzp38.fsf@intech19.enhanced.com> +Lines: 249 +X-Mailer: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.7 +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Greetings! Allow me a futile attempt at an adequate answer on behalf +of the late Dr. Schelter: + +Shortly after Dr. Schelter died, Richard Stallman requested a +volunteer to continue maintenance of GCL. There was not much response +from the lisp community. Like many of you, I was moved by +Dr. Schelter's work, and did not want to see it rot away. RMS +encouraged me to act on this sentiment and do what I could to keep GCL +going, in spite of my then total unfamiliarity with lisp. (I have +extensive experience in C, though). So I agreed. + +We set the project up at http://savannah.gnu.org/projects/gcl, and +formed the gcl-devel@gnu.org mailing list. Over time, several +volunteers arose, bringing the current number of GCL developers to 12. +We attempted to quickly stabilize Dr. Schelter's last work with a +bug-fix only 2.4.x series, the latest of which is 2.4.3. This is +known to compile itself and maxima on linux x86 boxes and pass all +tests without error. I'm not sure about the windows status of this +release, though my understanding is that 2.4.3 produces a working +maxima under mingw as well. + +We then branched CVS into the 2.5.0 series, and have pushed forward on +several fronts. + +On the portability side, we introduced relocation code calling +routines in the bfd library. This together with extensive changes for +64 bit support, has produced a current CVS snapshot which builds a +test-passing maxima on all 11 Debian architectures (x86 ppc arm m68k +sparc mips mipsel ia64 alpha hppa s390), Windows Mingw, sparc solaris, +and (apparently) FreeBSD. + +This effort revealed several bugs in the code, the fixing of which, +coupled with a general overhaul to remove all compiler warnings, has +led to a code base which now supports full C compiler optimization on +all platforms save one, leading to a general performance increase of +some 10%. + +A major push in the direction of full ansi compliance has begun. clcs +and pcl code has been incorporated, several missing elements +(e.g. ansi loop, destructuring bind, defpackage, etc) have been added +into the core system, numerical constants are now handled correctly to +full IEEE precision, COMMON-LISP and COMMON-LISP-USER packages are +provided, and perhaps most significantly, Paul Dietz has been +developing our own ansi-test regression suite, leading to steady +progress in fixing any failures thus revealed. I'm told that we +actually do better than Allegro on Paul's tests :-). These features +are optionally enabled at compile time with --enable-ansi. + +Several extensions have been incorporated or are in the process of being +incorporated. xgcl is now included in the standard tree, the author +or pargcl has refreshed his additions, and preliminary discussion of +blas/lapack support has been positive. The ansi common lisp spec in +.texi format has also been patched for modern texinfo systems, +included in the standard tree and is now built into searchable info +files at compile time. + +On some systems, native relocation is not yet available due to +unfinished support in the bfd library. These are mips mipsel alpha +ia64 and hppa. On such systems, we've reenabled the dlopen code +options Dr. Schelter had provided, giving a GCL which can correctly +load objects, but not save them via save-system. To enable the +building of systems such as maxima on these platforms, which +frequently rely on dumping the image via save-system by default, we've +added some code to automate the approach Dr. Schelter had put together +for maxima 5.6. Briefly, one can call (compiler::link '( ) "image_name" "initialization code" "extra libs" nil) after +compilation and it 'will just work'. Maxima CVS can optionally use +this method, as well as the Debian package of acl2, both of which have +been verified. + +On Debian systems, gcl/maxima and gcl/acl2 packages now exist which +compile and pass all tests on all platforms, with the exception of a +few remaining issues with acl2, which should be resolved shortly. +Mike tells me that the latest Mingw GCL binary does likewise on +Windows. We hope to make axiom the third such example! + +As for the future, we hope to get GCL into sufficient shape one day to +submit is for consideration as the standard common lisp front end to +the gcc family of compilers. GCL may not be the most compliant, but +to my knowledge it carries the most number of open source apps to the +most number of platforms, and with generally quite good performance. + +As for libraries, both gmp and bfd can be linked in dynamically. The +former is so by default on Debian systems. This allows GCL to use the +latest lib compatible with the API of soname 3. CVS has a relatively +new gmp included for local building and static linkage as well, under +the directory gmp3. + +In sum, GCL is a work in progress. We hope it will be useful to the +lisp community. I must say that I share the sentiment you expressed +below. A lot of work has gone into intelligent lisp programming, and +it appears in danger of getting lost as the human repositories of its +knowledge go on to better things. This would be a terrible waste. It +is the hope of bringing these gems forward into the open source world +of a new generation that chiefly motivates my work on GCL. + +Take care, + + + +Bill Page writes: + +> Background. +> +> > +> > From: Bill Page +> > Date: 2002/11/20 Wed AM 11:40:05 EST +> > To: +> > CC: , +> > Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: GCL on Cygwin for Axiom +> > +> > Tim, +> > +> > Damn. I am sorry to hear that Schelter is not still +> > available. I guess the Internet hasn't quite progressed to +> > that stage yet... And it's a reminder to me that there is +> > some urgency in this project to document Axiom and make it +> > available. +> > +> > What I meant to write was GCL (Schelter's lisp), not GCC - +> > It was late and I was frustrated. I am more awake not. +> > +> > Yes, GCC runs just fine on Cygwin for me but I do not have +> > a running version of GCL. In comparison to CCL, GCL is a +> > monster! Nearly everything I have tried to do in order to +> > make a running version of GCL under cygwin has failed with +> > obviously incorrect and untested code C coding. Getting +> > CCL to run was a piece of cake compared to this! +> > +> > Does your offer to help extend to GCL? I have so many +> > problems and have tried so many things that it is a bit +> > hard to know where to start asking questions. But ... +> > +> > 1) First things: The version 2.4.1 of GCL that is in your +> > CVS is a bit out of date. The current version is 2.4.3. +> > And even the version of GMP (GNU math package) that is +> > in 2.4.3 is quite out of date. The most recent version +> > of GMP is 4.1 +> > +> > 2) Via the web, I found that it is known that version +> > 2.4.1 of GCL is missing some critical files for the Cywin +> > build, specifically 'unexnt.c'. So after several more +> > failed attempts witn 2.4.1, I download 2.4.3 and tried to +> > compile it. unexnt.c is there, but there are a whole host +> > of other problems, many of which seem to relate to GMP. +> > So I downloaded 4.1 of GMP. That built just fine on it's +> > own and after some fiddling I finally got GCL to link +> > with it. After alot of fixing other small things, I +> > finally got to the final load step for GCL only to have +> > the the loader blow up with a segment fault and stack +> > dump ... jeez. +> > +> > 3) There is a "pre-release" version of GCL posted at the +> > Savannah site which is supposed into compile into native +> > Window's application with the mingw32 version of GCC. +> > Perhaps that is where I will try to go next. +> > +> > 4) But first a few more attempts. I am in the middle of +> > getting the missing unexnt.c file from the newest version +> > of GCL and using it with the older version. I will let you +> > know how far this one goes. +> > +> > Cheers, +> > Bill Page. +> > +> > > +> > > From: root +> > > Date: 2002/11/20 Wed AM 07:15:24 EST +> > > To: bill.page1@sympatico.ca +> > > CC: schelter@mail.ma.utexas.edu, daly@idsi.net +> > > Subject: Re: GCL on Cygwin for Axiom +> > > +> > > Bill, +> > > +> > > Schelter's dead. But if you do get an answer let me +> > > know :-) +> > > Did you want help with GCC (Gnu Compiler Collection) or +> > > GCL (Gnu Common Lisp)? +> > > +> > > I thought you had GCC running. How can I help? +> > > +> > > Tim +> > > +> > +> > _______________________________________________ +> > Axiom-developer mailing list +> > Axiom-developer@nongnu.org +> > http://mail.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/axiom-developer +> > +> +> > +> > From: Bill Page +> > Date: 2002/11/20 Wed AM 04:03:37 EST +> > To: +> > CC: +> > Subject: GCL on Cygwin for Axiom +> > +> > Dr. Schelter; +> > +> > I am working with Tim Daly on the Axiom open source +> > project. One of the tasks that I have taken on is the +> > implementation of a Windows/Cygwin version of Axiom. At +> > the present time it is planned that Axiom will run on +> > several different Lisp platforms including GCC and the +> > recently made publicly available Codemist CCL interpreter. +> > +> > Tim is proceeding with porting the Axiom code to the GCC +> > environment under Linux but has run into a few initial +> > complications with the use of CCL. I have been successful +> > at building CCL under the Windows/Cygwin environment but +> > am having a "devil" of a time trying to install GCC on +> > this platform. I have not been able to find any +> > combination of recent versions of both Cygwin and GCC +> > and/or choice of options for which I can successfully +> > prepare the GCC executables. +> > +> > I have tried my best of obtain more information about the +> > available operational versions via the web, but so far I +> > have not found an answer. I would very much appreciate +> > your recommendations on how to approach this. I have +> > heard that there is a "native" Windows version of GCC +> > available which will compile under Mingw32. This version +> > would likely be compatible with our goals for Axiom. +> > Could you tell me who I might contact concerning the +> > current status of the Mingw32 version and/or a +> > Windows/Cygwin version. +> > +> > Thanks for your time. +> > +> > Sincerely, +> > Bill Page. +> > +> > http://savannah.nongnu.org/projects/axiom/ +> > +> > +> +> +> +> _______________________________________________ +> Axiom-developer mailing list +> Axiom-developer@nongnu.org +> http://mail.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/axiom-developer +> +> + +-- +Camm Maguire camm@enhanced.com +========================================================================== +"The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens." -- Baha'u'llah + + + +From daly@idsi.net Wed Nov 20 20:50:12 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18EgTr-0005pY-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 20:50:11 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18EgTh-0005Vu-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 20:50:05 -0500 +Received: from mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.48]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18EgTh-0005R8-00; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 20:50:01 -0500 +Received: from dialup-65.59.78.33.dial1.stamford1.level3.net ([65.59.78.33] helo=localhost.localdomain) + by mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) + id 18EgTd-00051z-00; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 17:49:57 -0800 +Received: (from root@localhost) + by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.6) id gAL1kUc01789; + Wed, 20 Nov 2002 20:46:30 -0500 +Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 20:46:30 -0500 +Message-Id: <200211210146.gAL1kUc01789@localhost.localdomain> +From: root +To: camm@enhanced.com +CC: bill.page1@sympatico.ca, axiom-developer@nongnu.org, + miketh@brisbane.paradigmgeo.com, gcl-devel@gnu.org +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Re: GCL on Cygwin for Axiom +Reply-to: daly@idsi.net +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Ok, I'll try 2.5 and see if that builds. + +Tim + + + +From daly@idsi.net Wed Nov 20 21:42:19 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18EhHZ-0001q5-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 21:41:33 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18EhHO-00015a-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 21:41:31 -0500 +Received: from gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.84]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18EhHM-0000z7-00; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 21:41:20 -0500 +Received: from dialup-65.59.78.33.dial1.stamford1.level3.net ([65.59.78.33] helo=localhost.localdomain) + by gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) + id 18EhHH-00056x-00; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 18:41:16 -0800 +Received: (from root@localhost) + by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.6) id gAL2bn601841; + Wed, 20 Nov 2002 21:37:49 -0500 +Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 21:37:49 -0500 +Message-Id: <200211210237.gAL2bn601841@localhost.localdomain> +From: root +To: camm@enhanced.com, bill.page1@sympatico.ca +CC: daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org, miketh@brisbane.paradigmgeo.com, + gcl-devel@gnu.org +Reply-to: daly@idsi.net +Subject: [Axiom-developer] _BOOL problem in GCL 2.4.3 for GCC 2.96 +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Camm, + +This patch will fix 2.4.3 to work on all systems. +You can just save this mail file to 386-linux.defs.patch and type: + cd gcl-2.4.3/o + patch < 386-linux.defs.patch +Perhaps you could call it 2.4.4? + +The problem is the include of the file +/usr/lib/gcc-lib/i386-redhat-linux/2.96/include/stdbool.h +which typedefs bool. This causes sfasl.c to fail to compile. + +To fix the build on GCC 2.96 add the flag -D_STDBOOL_H to the +sfasl.h compile line. The correct way to do this is to apply +the attached patch file. Note that configure writes over several +files so you can't patch them directly. Under Bill's scheme you +make platform specific changes in the h/*.defs files. + +The "bug" was introduced when bfd support was added. +In this particular case the "include " also does an +"include " which typedefs bool causing the conflict. +If you read the include file you'll find that this bug +has bitten many people. There are checks in the file so that + is only included if the compiler version is 2 +and the subversion > 95. Since my RedHat 7.2 is gcc 2.95 this +works. My RedHat 7.3 is gcc 2.96 and fails. The correct fix +is NEVER to include this file as it will always cause a conflict +for GCL. The easiest way to do this is to claim that the file +has already been included. The first time it is included it +defines a flag _STDBOOL_H. So, we lie about it and always +define the flag thus avoiding the problem. + +Some day I should sign up as a GCL developer :-) + +Tim + +=================================================================== +--- 386-linux.defs Sun Feb 3 13:44:07 2002 ++++ /tmp/386-linux.defs Wed Nov 20 21:21:08 2002 +@@ -21,7 +21,7 @@ + # and also in the compiler::*cc* variable for later compilation of + # lisp files. + # (the -pipe is just since our file system is slow..) +-CC = ${GCC} -pipe -fwritable-strings -DVOL=volatile -I$(GCLDIR)/o -fsigned-char ++CC = ${GCC} -pipe -fwritable-strings -DVOL=volatile -I$(GCLDIR)/o -fsigned-char -D_STDBOOL_H + + # under redhat 6.1 and slackware 7.0 we needed to have this + # link be static, but should be ok with the fix to unixport/rsym_elf.c + + + +From daly@idsi.net Wed Nov 20 21:45:05 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18EhKz-0003Ws-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 21:45:05 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18EhKw-0003WY-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 21:45:04 -0500 +Received: from grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.46]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18EhKw-0003WM-00; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 21:45:02 -0500 +Received: from dialup-65.59.78.33.dial1.stamford1.level3.net ([65.59.78.33] helo=localhost.localdomain) + by grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) + id 18EhKn-0003MZ-00; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 18:44:54 -0800 +Received: (from root@localhost) + by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.6) id gAL2fPS01854; + Wed, 20 Nov 2002 21:41:25 -0500 +Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 21:41:25 -0500 +Message-Id: <200211210241.gAL2fPS01854@localhost.localdomain> +From: root +To: camm@enhanced.com, bill.page1@sympatico.ca +CC: daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org, miketh@brisbane.paradigmgeo.com, + gcl-devel@gnu.org +Reply-to: daly@idsi.net +Subject: [Axiom-developer] _BOOL problem in GCL 2.4.3 for GCC 2.96 (typo fix) +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Camm, I fat-fingered the last mail. The actual .defs file is in the +'h' directory, not the 'o' directory. These are the correct instructions: + + +This patch will fix 2.4.3 to work on all systems. +You can just save this mail file to 386-linux.defs.patch and type: + cd gcl-2.4.3/h + patch < 386-linux.defs.patch +Perhaps you could call it 2.4.4? + +The problem is the include of the file +/usr/lib/gcc-lib/i386-redhat-linux/2.96/include/stdbool.h +which typedefs bool. This causes sfasl.c to fail to compile. + +To fix the build on GCC 2.96 add the flag -D_STDBOOL_H to the +sfasl.h compile line. The correct way to do this is to apply +the attached patch file. Note that configure writes over several +files so you can't patch them directly. Under Bill's scheme you +make platform specific changes in the h/*.defs files. + +The "bug" was introduced when bfd support was added. +In this particular case the "include " also does an +"include " which typedefs bool causing the conflict. +If you read the include file you'll find that this bug +has bitten many people. There are checks in the file so that + is only included if the compiler version is 2 +and the subversion > 95. Since my RedHat 7.2 is gcc 2.95 this +works. My RedHat 7.3 is gcc 2.96 and fails. The correct fix +is NEVER to include this file as it will always cause a conflict +for GCL. The easiest way to do this is to claim that the file +has already been included. The first time it is included it +defines a flag _STDBOOL_H. So, we lie about it and always +define the flag thus avoiding the problem. + +Some day I should sign up as a GCL developer :-) + +Tim + +=================================================================== +--- 386-linux.defs Sun Feb 3 13:44:07 2002 ++++ /tmp/386-linux.defs Wed Nov 20 21:21:08 2002 +@@ -21,7 +21,7 @@ + # and also in the compiler::*cc* variable for later compilation of + # lisp files. + # (the -pipe is just since our file system is slow..) +-CC = ${GCC} -pipe -fwritable-strings -DVOL=volatile -I$(GCLDIR)/o -fsigned-char ++CC = ${GCC} -pipe -fwritable-strings -DVOL=volatile -I$(GCLDIR)/o -fsigned-char -D_STDBOOL_H + + # under redhat 6.1 and slackware 7.0 we needed to have this + # link be static, but should be ok with the fix to unixport/rsym_elf.c + + + +From daly@idsi.net Wed Nov 20 22:43:57 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18EiFw-0005dE-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 22:43:56 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18EiFv-0005cw-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 22:43:56 -0500 +Received: from hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.22]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18EiFu-0005bs-00; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 22:43:54 -0500 +Received: from dialup-65.59.78.33.dial1.stamford1.level3.net ([65.59.78.33] helo=localhost.localdomain) + by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) + id 18EiFs-0007VC-00; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 19:43:52 -0800 +Received: (from root@localhost) + by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.6) id gAL3eRw08822; + Wed, 20 Nov 2002 22:40:27 -0500 +Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 22:40:27 -0500 +Message-Id: <200211210340.gAL3eRw08822@localhost.localdomain> +From: root +To: camm@enhanced.com +CC: daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org, gcl-devel@gnu.org +Reply-to: daly@idsi.net +Subject: [Axiom-developer] gcl 2.5 +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +I'm happy to report that GCL 2.5 builds cleanly on RedHat 7.2 (gcc 2.95) +RedHat 7.3 (gcc 2.96) and RedHat 8.0 (gcc 3.2). + +Where can I find this test suite you mentioned? + +Tim + + + +From daly@idsi.net Wed Nov 20 23:01:59 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18EiXP-0001K9-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 23:01:59 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18EiXM-0001HT-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 23:01:58 -0500 +Received: from scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.49]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18EiXL-0001F8-00; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 23:01:55 -0500 +Received: from dialup-65.59.78.33.dial1.stamford1.level3.net ([65.59.78.33] helo=localhost.localdomain) + by scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) + id 18EiXJ-0002PS-00; Wed, 20 Nov 2002 20:01:53 -0800 +Received: (from root@localhost) + by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.6) id gAL3wSt08843; + Wed, 20 Nov 2002 22:58:28 -0500 +Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 22:58:28 -0500 +Message-Id: <200211210358.gAL3wSt08843@localhost.localdomain> +From: root +To: camm@enhanced.com +CC: daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org, gcl-devel@gnu.org +Reply-to: daly@idsi.net +Subject: [Axiom-developer] gcl 2.5 bug report +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +gcl +>(in-package 'foo) +Error: A package error occurred on FOO: "No such package". + +This is clearly an error. Steele pg 183 says that in-package +will create a package that does not exist. pg 182 says a package +name can be a symbol or a string. + +Tim + + + + +From camm@enhanced.com Thu Nov 21 08:09:57 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18Er5h-000466-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 08:09:57 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18Er5a-0003zh-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 08:09:56 -0500 +Received: from h-66-134-96-17.phlapafg.covad.net ([66.134.96.17] helo=intech19.enhanced.com) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18Er5a-0003yy-00; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 08:09:50 -0500 +Received: from camm by intech19.enhanced.com with local (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) + id 18Er5D-0005du-00; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 08:09:27 -0500 +To: daly@idsi.net +Cc: axiom-developer@nongnu.org, gcl-devel@gnu.org +References: <200211210340.gAL3eRw08822@localhost.localdomain> +From: Camm Maguire +Date: 21 Nov 2002 08:09:27 -0500 +In-Reply-To: root's message of "Wed, 20 Nov 2002 22:40:27 -0500" +Message-ID: <54d6ozgjco.fsf@intech19.enhanced.com> +Lines: 31 +X-Mailer: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.7 +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: [Gcl-devel] gcl 2.5 +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Greetings! Great! In the subdir ansi-tests. Try this out (only when +you've configured with --enable-ansi): + +cd ansi-tests +../unixport/saved_ansi_gcl +(load "gclload.lsp") + + +Take care, + +root writes: + +> I'm happy to report that GCL 2.5 builds cleanly on RedHat 7.2 (gcc 2.95) +> RedHat 7.3 (gcc 2.96) and RedHat 8.0 (gcc 3.2). +> +> Where can I find this test suite you mentioned? +> +> Tim +> +> +> _______________________________________________ +> Gcl-devel mailing list +> Gcl-devel@gnu.org +> http://mail.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gcl-devel +> +> + +-- +Camm Maguire camm@enhanced.com +========================================================================== +"The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens." -- Baha'u'llah + + + +From camm@enhanced.com Thu Nov 21 08:13:42 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18Er9K-0007Qt-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 08:13:42 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18Er9E-0007QF-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 08:13:41 -0500 +Received: from h-66-134-96-17.phlapafg.covad.net ([66.134.96.17] helo=intech19.enhanced.com) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18Er9D-0007Q8-00; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 08:13:35 -0500 +Received: from camm by intech19.enhanced.com with local (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) + id 18Er45-0005ds-00; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 08:08:17 -0500 +To: daly@idsi.net +Cc: axiom-developer@nongnu.org, gcl-devel@gnu.org +References: <200211210358.gAL3wSt08843@localhost.localdomain> +From: Camm Maguire +Date: 21 Nov 2002 08:08:16 -0500 +In-Reply-To: root's message of "Wed, 20 Nov 2002 22:58:28 -0500" +Message-ID: <54fztvgjen.fsf@intech19.enhanced.com> +Lines: 34 +X-Mailer: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.7 +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: [Gcl-devel] gcl 2.5 bug report +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Hi Tim! The behavior you describe is CLTL1. CLTL2 and ansi say you +have to make-package first. As this change did not break our existing +'customers' maxima and acl2, we just incorporated it into the base +image. If it is a problem for you, I could escape the updated +behavior to only kick in when configuring the ansi image. Shouldn't be +too tough to add a make-package, no? + +Take care, + +root writes: + +> gcl +> >(in-package 'foo) +> Error: A package error occurred on FOO: "No such package". +> +> This is clearly an error. Steele pg 183 says that in-package +> will create a package that does not exist. pg 182 says a package +> name can be a symbol or a string. +> +> Tim +> +> +> +> _______________________________________________ +> Gcl-devel mailing list +> Gcl-devel@gnu.org +> http://mail.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gcl-devel +> +> + +-- +Camm Maguire camm@enhanced.com +========================================================================== +"The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens." -- Baha'u'llah + + + +From TeXmacs@math.u-psud.fr Thu Nov 21 11:30:22 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18EuDd-00019z-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 11:30:21 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18EuDY-00016B-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 11:30:20 -0500 +Received: from matups.math.u-psud.fr ([129.175.50.4]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18EuDX-00015u-00; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 11:30:15 -0500 +Received: from anh.math.u-psud.fr (anh.math.u-psud.fr [129.175.50.156]) + by matups.math.u-psud.fr (8.11.6/jtpda-5.3.3) with ESMTP id gALGU9j03599 + ; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 17:30:13 +0100 (MET) +Received: from anh (anh [129.175.50.156]) + by anh.math.u-psud.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP + id EE5EAB2C8; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 17:30:07 +0100 (MET) +Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 17:30:07 +0100 (MET) +From: Joris van der Hoeven +X-Sender: texmacs@anh +To: texmacs-dev@gnu.org +Cc: bill.page1@sympatico.ca, daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +In-Reply-To: <200211201236.gAKCadI17167@localhost.localdomain> +Message-ID: +MIME-Version: 1.0 +Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1 +Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable +X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by matups.math.u-psud.fr id gALGU9j03599 +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: [Texmacs-dev] Axiom and TeXmacs +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +> Norman's noweb wraps code in the sequence, causing a "definition" +> <>=3D +> code +> ... +> code +> @ +> where everything outside the <<>>=3D ... @ is considered text. +> Code between the boundaries is basically a verbatim environment. +>=20 +> Code definitions are "used" by specifying: +> <> +> Notice the lack of trailing equal sign. + +Maybe we should preprocess the pamphlet file using Perl +before doing the conversion. I think that St=E9phane Payrard +might be willing to help us with that. + +> Joris, can you point me at some specific part of the TeXmacs docs +> that will help us develop a pamphlet "style" file. A style file +> that properly handle noweb vanilla output would be quite useful. + +Help -> Styles + +Unfortunately, the documentation is very incomplete, +because the support for writing style files will be much improved +at a not yet specified date... + + + + +From bill.page1@sympatico.ca Thu Nov 21 16:11:18 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18EybW-0005xK-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 16:11:18 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18EybQ-0005t0-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 16:11:17 -0500 +Received: from tomts25.bellnexxia.net ([209.226.175.188] helo=tomts25-srv.bellnexxia.net) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18EybQ-0005sn-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 16:11:12 -0500 +Received: from Asus ([216.209.110.142]) by tomts25-srv.bellnexxia.net + (InterMail vM.5.01.04.19 201-253-122-122-119-20020516) with ESMTP + id <20021121211110.LZEB1456.tomts25-srv.bellnexxia.net@Asus>; + Thu, 21 Nov 2002 16:11:10 -0500 +From: "Bill Page" +To: "'Joris van der Hoeven'" , + +Cc: , + +Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 16:11:08 -0500 +Message-ID: <000501c291a2$83f70a50$6501a8c0@Asus> +MIME-Version: 1.0 +Content-Type: text/plain; + charset="iso-8859-1" +Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable +X-Priority: 3 (Normal) +X-MSMail-Priority: Normal +X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4024 +In-Reply-To: +Importance: Normal +X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 +Subject: [Axiom-developer] RE: [Texmacs-dev] Axiom and TeXmacs +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +On Thursday, November 21, 2002 11:30 AM Joris van der Hoeven +TeXmacs@math.u-psud.fr wrote: + +> [Tim]=20 +> > Norman's noweb wraps code in the sequence, causing a +> > "definition" <>=3D code +> > ... +> > code +> > @ +> > where everything outside the <<>>=3D ... @ is considered +> > text. Code between the boundaries is basically a verbatim +> > environment. +> >=20 +> > Code definitions are "used" by specifying: +> > <> +> > Notice the lack of trailing equal sign. +>=20 +> Maybe we should preprocess the pamphlet file using Perl +> before doing the conversion. I think that St=E9phane +> Payrard might be willing to help us with that. +> + +If I understand you correctly, I do not think a Perl +filter is a good approach. I have nothing against Perl +as such, its just that I think the goal should be more +than loading a pamphlet file into TeXmacs in a readable +manner. + +I think there should be a new File->Import->Pamphlet +option for this case. The result of importing a pamphlet +should be a TeXmacs document with a folded structure. +The code chunks should appear folded into the document so +that when viewed or printed with a style called "weave" +for example, the result would be the same as the output +of + + noweave | latex + +A different style which displayed the contents of the +folded chunks could be used for editing. Code chunks +have to be named and will also have references to +other code chunks embedded in them. + +Perhaps it would be nicer if TeXmacs was able to +expand and collapse folds on demand. It is not really +clear to me hold folding is intended to work in TeXmacs. +I wasn't able to find any documentation about it and +my experiments with it so far have not produced a clear +picture. Perhaps it is still largely in the planning +stage?=20 + +Finally there should be an new File->Export->Tangle +menu option that would generate code and be equivalent +to + + notangle + +which expands the code chunks starting with the root +<<*>>=3D and including all the referenced code chunks +in the whole tree structure. + +We could also have a Tools->Selections->Export->Tangle +option that applies notangle starting with a selected +code chunk instead of the root. + +What do you think, Tim? +=20 +> > Joris, can you point me at some specific part of +> > the TeXmacs docs that will help us develop a pamphlet +> > "style" file. A style file that properly handle +> > noweb vanilla output would be quite useful. +>=20 +> Help -> Styles +>=20 +> Unfortunately, the documentation is very incomplete, +> because the support for writing style files will be +> much improved at a not yet specified date... +>=20 + +Perhaps it would help to be able to look at some +existing styles that do something similar to what +we want. What would you recommend? + +Regards, +Bill Page. + + + + +From camm@enhanced.com Thu Nov 21 16:36:34 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18Eyzy-0000mP-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 16:36:34 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18Eyzt-0000ks-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 16:36:33 -0500 +Received: from h-66-134-96-17.phlapafg.covad.net ([66.134.96.17] helo=intech19.enhanced.com) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18Eyzs-0000js-00; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 16:36:29 -0500 +Received: from camm by intech19.enhanced.com with local (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) + id 18Eyuj-0008KN-00; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 16:31:09 -0500 +To: daly@idsi.net +Cc: bill.page1@sympatico.ca, axiom-developer@nongnu.org, + miketh@brisbane.paradigmgeo.com, gcl-devel@gnu.org +References: <200211210237.gAL2bn601841@localhost.localdomain> +From: Camm Maguire +Date: 21 Nov 2002 16:31:09 -0500 +In-Reply-To: root's message of "Wed, 20 Nov 2002 21:37:49 -0500" +Message-ID: <54lm3mtxsy.fsf@intech19.enhanced.com> +Lines: 83 +X-Mailer: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.7 +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: [Gcl-devel] _BOOL problem in GCL 2.4.3 for GCC 2.96 +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Greetings! + +root writes: + +> Camm, +> +> This patch will fix 2.4.3 to work on all systems. +> You can just save this mail file to 386-linux.defs.patch and type: +> cd gcl-2.4.3/o +> patch < 386-linux.defs.patch +> Perhaps you could call it 2.4.4? +> +> The problem is the include of the file +> /usr/lib/gcc-lib/i386-redhat-linux/2.96/include/stdbool.h +> which typedefs bool. This causes sfasl.c to fail to compile. +> +> To fix the build on GCC 2.96 add the flag -D_STDBOOL_H to the +> sfasl.h compile line. The correct way to do this is to apply +> the attached patch file. Note that configure writes over several +> files so you can't patch them directly. Under Bill's scheme you +> make platform specific changes in the h/*.defs files. +> +> The "bug" was introduced when bfd support was added. +> In this particular case the "include " also does an +> "include " which typedefs bool causing the conflict. +> If you read the include file you'll find that this bug +> has bitten many people. There are checks in the file so that +> is only included if the compiler version is 2 +> and the subversion > 95. Since my RedHat 7.2 is gcc 2.95 this +> works. My RedHat 7.3 is gcc 2.96 and fails. The correct fix +> is NEVER to include this file as it will always cause a conflict +> for GCL. The easiest way to do this is to claim that the file +> has already been included. The first time it is included it +> defines a flag _STDBOOL_H. So, we lie about it and always +> define the flag thus avoiding the problem. +> + +Thanks for the detailed analysis! We had dealt with this in CVS with +an #undef bool in object.h, but I rather like your solution better. + +BTW, a word to the wise, gcc 2.96 is very broken, and should be +avoided at all costs. The Gcc people never released it, but the +Redhat people rushed it out as they needed some c++ stuff for a +release they could not reschedule. + +I'll try to get a 2.4.4 out this weekend, with a bool fix, and with +the version numbers correctly reported. If anyone has something else +they think should go in, please let me know by Friday evening. + +> Some day I should sign up as a GCL developer :-) +> + +Indeed!! Whenever you are free and interested ... + +Take care, + +> Tim +> +> =================================================================== +> --- 386-linux.defs Sun Feb 3 13:44:07 2002 +> +++ /tmp/386-linux.defs Wed Nov 20 21:21:08 2002 +> @@ -21,7 +21,7 @@ +> # and also in the compiler::*cc* variable for later compilation of +> # lisp files. +> # (the -pipe is just since our file system is slow..) +> -CC = ${GCC} -pipe -fwritable-strings -DVOL=volatile -I$(GCLDIR)/o -fsigned-char +> +CC = ${GCC} -pipe -fwritable-strings -DVOL=volatile -I$(GCLDIR)/o -fsigned-char -D_STDBOOL_H +> +> # under redhat 6.1 and slackware 7.0 we needed to have this +> # link be static, but should be ok with the fix to unixport/rsym_elf.c +> +> +> _______________________________________________ +> Gcl-devel mailing list +> Gcl-devel@gnu.org +> http://mail.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gcl-devel +> +> + +-- +Camm Maguire camm@enhanced.com +========================================================================== +"The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens." -- Baha'u'llah + + + +From bill.page1@sympatico.ca Thu Nov 21 21:22:11 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18F3SN-0005OM-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 21:22:11 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18F3SJ-0005Nv-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 21:22:09 -0500 +Received: from tomts21-srv.bellnexxia.net ([209.226.175.183]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18F3SI-0005Np-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 21:22:06 -0500 +Received: from Asus ([216.209.110.142]) by tomts21-srv.bellnexxia.net + (InterMail vM.5.01.04.19 201-253-122-122-119-20020516) with ESMTP + id <20021122022204.SSZI981.tomts21-srv.bellnexxia.net@Asus>; + Thu, 21 Nov 2002 21:22:04 -0500 +From: "Bill Page" +To: +Cc: , + +Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 21:21:59 -0500 +Message-ID: <000701c291cd$f2a4b940$6501a8c0@Asus> +MIME-Version: 1.0 +Content-Type: text/plain; + charset="us-ascii" +Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit +X-Priority: 3 (Normal) +X-MSMail-Priority: Normal +X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4024 +In-Reply-To: <009901c290ec$250b14c0$0cb4a8c0@nasturtium> +Importance: Normal +X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: GCL on Cygwin for Axiom +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +On Wednesday, November 20, 2002 6:26 PM Mike Thomas +miketh@brisbane.paradigmgeo.com wrote: + +> ... +> Below please find an attempt to discourage the development +> of a Cygwin version of GCL and in the interests of +> intellectual freedom, "paper napkin" instructions on +> how to go about it if you decide to do so. +> ... + +Ok, I have no particularly strong reason to continue +with Cygwin. My current goal is to support the open +source version of Axiom with both Codemist CCL and GCL +on a Windows platform and I just considered Cygwin as +a logical "half-way" point. + +On Wednesday, November 20, 2002 8:31 PM Camm Maguire +camm@enhanced.com wrote: + +> ... +> On Debian systems, gcl/maxima and gcl/acl2 packages +> now exist which compile and pass all tests on all +> platforms, with the exception of a few remaining +> issues with acl2, which should be resolved shortly. +> Mike tells me that the latest Mingw GCL binary does +> likewise on Windows. We hope to make axiom the third +> such example! +> ... + +Since GCL can already be built on both Linux and Windows +(with mingw), the only problem is CCL. CCL should be +relatively easy to port, but my initial worry would +be the use of SUN rpc in CCL. I am quite sure there is +no port of this version of rpc to native Windows, is +there? I even had trouble finding one that works with +Cygwin. + +A secondary issue is that the next goal after getting +OpenAxiom to run in Windows is to provide a new GUI +frontend (to replace Techexplorer). The current plan +is to use TeXmacs. Currently TeXmacs runs only on Linux +and Cygwin (with Xfree86). Making it work under native +Windows sounds formidable and I am not sure if anyone +is seriously attempting such a port. But I suppose there +is no reason (in principle) why one could not support +TeXmacs under Cygwin with access to the Windows native +version of Axiom. The main purpose of Cygwin then would +be to provide the x-server windows environment. + +So, I am about to embark on setting up MinGW + MSYS on +my Windows system and see how far I can get with +the current Axiom build. Tim: I'll probably go for +the GCL 2.5 since that version is know to work and +modify the makefile.pamphlet files accordingly. + +Regards, +Bill Page. + + + + +From miketh@brisbane.paradigmgeo.com Thu Nov 21 22:52:54 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18F4sA-0002mq-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 22:52:54 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18F4s3-0002aP-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 22:52:49 -0500 +Received: from [203.52.176.30] (helo=br-dmz.paradigmgeo.com) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18F4ry-0002N8-00; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 22:52:42 -0500 +Received: from nasturtium (br-fw.brisbane.ParadigmGeo.com [203.52.176.26]) + by br-dmz.paradigmgeo.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with SMTP id gAM3f0D12517; + Fri, 22 Nov 2002 13:41:02 +1000 +Message-ID: <014c01c291da$d5e3f660$0cb4a8c0@nasturtium> +Reply-To: "Mike Thomas" +From: "Mike Thomas" +To: "Bill Page" , +Cc: , +References: <000701c291cd$f2a4b940$6501a8c0@Asus> +Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 13:54:11 +1000 +MIME-Version: 1.0 +Content-Type: text/plain; + charset="iso-8859-1" +Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit +X-Priority: 3 +X-MSMail-Priority: Normal +X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 +X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: [Gcl-devel] Re: GCL on Cygwin for Axiom +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Hi Bill. + +> Ok, I have no particularly strong reason to continue +> with Cygwin. My current goal is to support the open +> source version of Axiom with both Codemist CCL and GCL +> on a Windows platform and I just considered Cygwin as +> a logical "half-way" point. + +It may be worth your while to also consider CLISP and Corman Common Lisp. + +> Since GCL can already be built on both Linux and Windows +> (with mingw), the only problem is CCL. CCL should be +> relatively easy to port, but my initial worry would +> be the use of SUN rpc in CCL. I am quite sure there is +> no port of this version of rpc to native Windows, is +> there? I even had trouble finding one that works with +> Cygwin. + +http://www.plt.rwth-aachen.de/ks/english/oncrpc.html + +I once built this package with Mingw32 for the pre-agreed price of a packet +of potato chips for my youngest daughter as a result of a mialing list +discussion about open source programming. (These duly arrived by surface +mail several months later along with other yummy tidbits and a reply package +is on it's way!) + +I haven't used it as I have no interest in such things so I can't claim it +will meet your needs, but try it out. I can package and send the prebuilt +version if you wish. + +> But I suppose there +> is no reason (in principle) why one could not support +> TeXmacs under Cygwin with access to the Windows native +> version of Axiom. + +In principle (I don't know what TeXMacs is) that should be fine and is one +of the beauties of using a native Windows build of Axiom rather than getting +hooked on the Cygwin dll. + +Best of luck + +Mike Thomas. + + + + +From miked@nag.co.uk Fri Nov 22 06:00:28 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18FBXw-00072v-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 06:00:28 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18FBXq-0006zw-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 06:00:26 -0500 +Received: from mail22.messagelabs.com ([193.109.255.115]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18FBXq-0006zf-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 06:00:22 -0500 +X-VirusChecked: Checked +X-Env-Sender: miked@nag.co.uk +X-Msg-Ref: server-14.tower-22.messagelabs.com!1037962819!6814 +Received: (qmail 4885 invoked from network); 22 Nov 2002 11:00:19 -0000 +Received: from smtp-3.star.net.uk (212.125.75.72) + by server-14.tower-22.messagelabs.com with SMTP; 22 Nov 2002 11:00:19 -0000 +Received: (qmail 18193 invoked from network); 22 Nov 2002 11:00:18 -0000 +Received: from nagmx1.nag.co.uk (HELO nag.co.uk) (62.231.145.242) + by smtp-3.star.net.uk with SMTP; 22 Nov 2002 11:00:18 -0000 +Received: from brackley.nag.co.uk (brackley.nag.co.uk [192.156.217.21]) + by nag.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA11112; + Fri, 22 Nov 2002 10:59:57 GMT +Received: from nag.co.uk (IDENT:root@trowbridge.nag.co.uk [192.156.217.69]) + by brackley.nag.co.uk (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id gAMB04J05370; + Fri, 22 Nov 2002 11:00:04 GMT + (envelope-from miked@nag.co.uk) +Received: (from miked@localhost) + by nag.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA31695; + Fri, 22 Nov 2002 10:59:24 GMT +Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 10:59:24 +0000 +From: Mike Dewar +To: Bill Page +Cc: axiom-developer@nongnu.org, gcl-devel@gnu.org, + mingw-users@lists.sourceforge.net, Mike Dewar +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Re: GCL on Cygwin for Axiom +Message-ID: <20021122105924.G31543@nag.co.uk> +References: <009901c290ec$250b14c0$0cb4a8c0@nasturtium> <000701c291cd$f2a4b940$6501a8c0@Asus> +Mime-Version: 1.0 +Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii +X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i +In-Reply-To: <000701c291cd$f2a4b940$6501a8c0@Asus>; from bill.page1@sympatico.ca on Thu, Nov 21, 2002 at 09:21:59PM -0500 +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +On Thu, Nov 21, 2002 at 09:21:59PM -0500, Bill Page wrote: +> Since GCL can already be built on both Linux and Windows +> (with mingw), the only problem is CCL. CCL should be +> relatively easy to port, but my initial worry would +> be the use of SUN rpc in CCL. I am quite sure there is +> no port of this version of rpc to native Windows, is +> there? I even had trouble finding one that works with +> Cygwin. +CCL should build "out pof the box" on Windows - after all we have been +shipping the Windows version of Axiom based on it for many years. The +Axiom architecture is different on Unix and Windows and the RPC +dependency you found almost certainly only exists in the Unix build. +The problem may be in generating a correct makefile - there are tools +for doing this (makebase etc) but they may need adapting to take account +of the non-standard Axiom enhancements. + +Kind regards, + +Mike. + +_____________________________________________________________________ +This message has been checked for all known viruses by Star Internet +delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Scanning Service. For further +information visit http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp or alternatively call +Star Internet for details on the Virus Scanning Service. + + + +From earnie_boyd@yahoo.com Fri Nov 22 07:36:22 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18FD2k-0003kX-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 07:36:22 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18FD2Z-0003SO-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 07:36:18 -0500 +Received: from smtp014.mail.yahoo.com ([216.136.173.58]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18FD2Y-0003Nl-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 07:36:10 -0500 +Received: from gate1.lci.net (HELO yahoo.com) (earnie?boyd@150.159.224.8 with plain) + by smtp.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Nov 2002 12:36:09 -0000 +Message-ID: <3DDE24B8.5000503@yahoo.com> +Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 07:36:08 -0500 +From: Earnie Boyd +Reply-To: MinGW Users +User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; WinNT4.0; en-US; rv:1.1) Gecko/20020826 +X-Accept-Language: en-us, en +MIME-Version: 1.0 +To: Bill Page +CC: axiom-developer@nongnu.org, gcl-devel@gnu.org, + mingw-users@lists.sourceforge.net +References: <000701c291cd$f2a4b940$6501a8c0@Asus> +Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed +Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: [Mingw-users] Re: GCL on Cygwin for Axiom +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Bill Page wrote: +> +> A secondary issue is that the next goal after getting +> OpenAxiom to run in Windows is to provide a new GUI +> frontend (to replace Techexplorer). The current plan +> is to use TeXmacs. Currently TeXmacs runs only on Linux +> and Cygwin (with Xfree86). Making it work under native +> Windows sounds formidable and I am not sure if anyone +> is seriously attempting such a port. But I suppose there +> is no reason (in principle) why one could not support +> TeXmacs under Cygwin with access to the Windows native +> version of Axiom. The main purpose of Cygwin then would +> be to provide the x-server windows environment. +> + +For a cygwinless X11 you should check out +http://sources.redhat.com/win32-x11/ , it appears old, incomplete and +not currently being worked but ... + +Earnie. + + + + +From earnie_boyd@yahoo.com Fri Nov 22 08:05:50 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18FDVG-0008Q5-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 08:05:50 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18FDV9-0008Kz-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 08:05:48 -0500 +Received: from smtp015.mail.yahoo.com ([216.136.173.59]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18FDV8-0008Is-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 08:05:42 -0500 +Received: from gate1.lci.net (HELO yahoo.com) (earnie?boyd@150.159.224.8 with plain) + by smtp.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Nov 2002 13:05:41 -0000 +Message-ID: <3DDE2BA4.5070606@yahoo.com> +Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 08:05:40 -0500 +From: Earnie Boyd +Reply-To: MinGW Users +User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; WinNT4.0; en-US; rv:1.1) Gecko/20020826 +X-Accept-Language: en-us, en +MIME-Version: 1.0 +To: MinGW Users +CC: Bill Page , axiom-developer@nongnu.org, + gcl-devel@gnu.org +References: <000701c291cd$f2a4b940$6501a8c0@Asus> <3DDE24B8.5000503@yahoo.com> +Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed +Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: [Mingw-users] Re: GCL on Cygwin for Axiom +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Earnie Boyd wrote: +> Bill Page wrote: +> +>> +>> A secondary issue is that the next goal after getting +>> OpenAxiom to run in Windows is to provide a new GUI +>> frontend (to replace Techexplorer). The current plan +>> is to use TeXmacs. Currently TeXmacs runs only on Linux +>> and Cygwin (with Xfree86). Making it work under native +>> Windows sounds formidable and I am not sure if anyone +>> is seriously attempting such a port. But I suppose there +>> is no reason (in principle) why one could not support +>> TeXmacs under Cygwin with access to the Windows native +>> version of Axiom. The main purpose of Cygwin then would +>> be to provide the x-server windows environment. +>> +> +> For a cygwinless X11 you should check out +> http://sources.redhat.com/win32-x11/ , it appears old, incomplete and +> not currently being worked but ... +> + +And this http://libw11.sourceforge.net/ which eliminates the need for an +X server. + + +Earnie. + + + + +From daly@idsi.net Fri Nov 22 11:55:00 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18FH51-0006rO-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 11:54:59 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18FH4w-0006l7-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 11:54:58 -0500 +Received: from mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.48]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18FH4v-0006kN-00; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 11:54:53 -0500 +Received: from dialup-65.56.26.226.dial1.stamford1.level3.net ([65.56.26.226] helo=localhost.localdomain) + by mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) + id 18FH4s-0003TW-00; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 08:54:51 -0800 +Received: (from root@localhost) + by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.6) id gAMGpHv10935; + Fri, 22 Nov 2002 11:51:17 -0500 +Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 11:51:17 -0500 +Message-Id: <200211221651.gAMGpHv10935@localhost.localdomain> +From: root +To: bill.page1@sympatico.ca +CC: miked@nag.co.uk, axiom-developer@nongnu.org, gcl-devel@gnu.org, + mingw-users@lists.sourceforge.net, miked@nag.co.uk, texmacs-dev@gnu.org, + tim@tenkan.org +Reply-to: daly@idsi.net +Subject: [Axiom-developer] many topics +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Bill, + +re: cygwin + +I'm trying to get access to a windows box so I can set up +cygwin. Damn things are pretty scarce :-) The key problem +is setting up a "compile farm" of various pieces of equipment. +If I can break free about $1000 I can stack a bunch of used +equipment in my basement and set up a local farm. I'm +deliberately maintaining 3 versions of linux (albeit all +redhat. gotta expand that too) so I can cross-build and find +bugs (like the Bool bug in GCL on RH7.3). I'll have to start +haunting Ebay to find used equipment. Christmas cometh. I'm +CERTAIN the girlfriend will appreciate her used Sun box :-) + +re: Lisp + +I downloaded CLISP last night and am downloading Corman now. Lets see +if we can find a runnable Common Lisp you can use. GCL 2.4.x should +run there in some form but I don't know how it will interact with +mingw. I've been looking at the Codemist version and find I'm going to +have to bend a few things around in the Makefiles to make it work due +to the compile-file issue. I'll make it work but it is slow going. +For portability reasons Codemist is our best bet as it uses byte-codes. +I've also discovered (as you will shortly) that GCL 2.5 is ansi-95 +compatible which means that the original source code needs +changes. For example, use-package used to create the package by +default. Now it appears that you need to call make-package first. +So to bring Axiom up to the present-day standards is going to take +me a bit more time. + +re: TeXmacs + +I know that a semi-native windows port has been high on Joris's list +for a long time so any progress there (possibly using mingw) would be +a heeuugge win. I've been too heads-down on the other issues to do +more than test it. We have to add the noweb.sty file to the list of +files that TeXmacs knows about. I want to add a bunch of Latex macros +to noweb.sty (probably forking off an Axiom.sty file that is upward +compatible) but that's an enqueued task. + +re: tenkan CVS + +I've asked for all of the developers to have write access to the CVS so +we can try coordinating things thru there. Feel free to make your own +mis...ummm, changes there and I'll adapt. Please, please try to +document everything you do even if it is a one line fix. At least +test it once and let me know if you can write to it. + +Tim + + + +From camm@enhanced.com Fri Nov 22 12:08:12 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18FHHo-0003Uy-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 12:08:12 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18FHHg-0003Ki-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 12:08:10 -0500 +Received: from h-66-134-96-17.phlapafg.covad.net ([66.134.96.17] helo=intech19.enhanced.com) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18FHHf-0003KS-00; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 12:08:03 -0500 +Received: from camm by intech19.enhanced.com with local (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) + id 18FHCC-0007n2-00; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 12:02:24 -0500 +To: daly@idsi.net +Cc: bill.page1@sympatico.ca, miked@nag.co.uk, axiom-developer@nongnu.org, + gcl-devel@gnu.org, mingw-users@lists.sourceforge.net, + texmacs-dev@gnu.org, tim@tenkan.org +References: <200211221651.gAMGpHv10935@localhost.localdomain> +From: Camm Maguire +Date: 22 Nov 2002 12:02:24 -0500 +In-Reply-To: root's message of "Fri, 22 Nov 2002 11:51:17 -0500" +Message-ID: <54adk17d27.fsf@intech19.enhanced.com> +Lines: 75 +X-Mailer: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.7 +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: [Gcl-devel] many topics +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Greetings! + +root writes: + +> Bill, +> +> re: cygwin +> +> I'm trying to get access to a windows box so I can set up +> cygwin. Damn things are pretty scarce :-) The key problem +> is setting up a "compile farm" of various pieces of equipment. +> If I can break free about $1000 I can stack a bunch of used +> equipment in my basement and set up a local farm. I'm +> deliberately maintaining 3 versions of linux (albeit all +> redhat. gotta expand that too) so I can cross-build and find +> bugs (like the Bool bug in GCL on RH7.3). I'll have to start +> haunting Ebay to find used equipment. Christmas cometh. I'm +> CERTAIN the girlfriend will appreciate her used Sun box :-) +> +> re: Lisp +> +> I downloaded CLISP last night and am downloading Corman now. Lets see +> if we can find a runnable Common Lisp you can use. GCL 2.4.x should +> run there in some form but I don't know how it will interact with +> mingw. I've been looking at the Codemist version and find I'm going to +> have to bend a few things around in the Makefiles to make it work due +> to the compile-file issue. I'll make it work but it is slow going. +> For portability reasons Codemist is our best bet as it uses byte-codes. +> I've also discovered (as you will shortly) that GCL 2.5 is ansi-95 +> compatible which means that the original source code needs +> changes. For example, use-package used to create the package by +> default. Now it appears that you need to call make-package first. +> So to bring Axiom up to the present-day standards is going to take +> me a bit more time. +> + +If this proves onerous, I could #ifdef in the old behavior when +configuring without --enable-ansi. But its probably a good idea for +Axiom to make this change in the long run. If you'd like me to do +this, just let me know. + +Take care, + +> re: TeXmacs +> +> I know that a semi-native windows port has been high on Joris's list +> for a long time so any progress there (possibly using mingw) would be +> a heeuugge win. I've been too heads-down on the other issues to do +> more than test it. We have to add the noweb.sty file to the list of +> files that TeXmacs knows about. I want to add a bunch of Latex macros +> to noweb.sty (probably forking off an Axiom.sty file that is upward +> compatible) but that's an enqueued task. +> +> re: tenkan CVS +> +> I've asked for all of the developers to have write access to the CVS so +> we can try coordinating things thru there. Feel free to make your own +> mis...ummm, changes there and I'll adapt. Please, please try to +> document everything you do even if it is a one line fix. At least +> test it once and let me know if you can write to it. +> +> Tim +> +> +> _______________________________________________ +> Gcl-devel mailing list +> Gcl-devel@gnu.org +> http://mail.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gcl-devel +> +> + +-- +Camm Maguire camm@enhanced.com +========================================================================== +"The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens." -- Baha'u'llah + + + +From daly@idsi.net Fri Nov 22 12:27:30 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18FHaT-0004Mt-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 12:27:29 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18FHaH-0004AY-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 12:27:28 -0500 +Received: from grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.46]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18FHaH-0004AR-00; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 12:27:17 -0500 +Received: from dialup-65.56.26.226.dial1.stamford1.level3.net ([65.56.26.226] helo=localhost.localdomain) + by grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) + id 18FHa6-0007cw-00; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 09:27:06 -0800 +Received: (from root@localhost) + by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.6) id gAMHNbp10965; + Fri, 22 Nov 2002 12:23:37 -0500 +Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 12:23:37 -0500 +Message-Id: <200211221723.gAMHNbp10965@localhost.localdomain> +From: root +To: camm@enhanced.com +CC: daly@idsi.net, bill.page1@sympatico.ca, miked@nag.co.uk, + axiom-developer@nongnu.org, gcl-devel@gnu.org, + mingw-users@lists.sourceforge.net, texmacs-dev@gnu.org, tim@tenkan.org +In-reply-to: <54adk17d27.fsf@intech19.enhanced.com> (message from Camm Maguire + on 22 Nov 2002 12:02:24 -0500) +Reply-to: daly@idsi.net +References: <200211221651.gAMGpHv10935@localhost.localdomain> <54adk17d27.fsf@intech19.enhanced.com> +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: [Gcl-devel] many topics +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +re: ifdef-ing out make-package check. + +Nope, leave it in. Axiom's got to come up to standards not the other +way around. + +Tim + + + +From TeXmacs@math.u-psud.fr Sat Nov 23 03:19:20 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18FVVY-0000uY-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 03:19:20 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18FVVV-0000p5-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 03:19:19 -0500 +Received: from mathups.math.u-psud.fr ([129.175.52.4] helo=matups.math.u-psud.fr) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18FVVV-0000n0-00; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 03:19:17 -0500 +Received: from anh.math.u-psud.fr (anh.math.u-psud.fr [129.175.50.156]) + by matups.math.u-psud.fr (8.11.6/jtpda-5.3.3) with ESMTP id gAN8JAj16586 + ; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 09:19:14 +0100 (MET) +Received: from anh (anh [129.175.50.156]) + by anh.math.u-psud.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP + id 8EEE9B2C8; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 09:19:09 +0100 (MET) +Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 09:19:09 +0100 (MET) +From: Joris van der Hoeven +X-Sender: texmacs@anh +To: Bill Page +Cc: "'Joris van der Hoeven'" , texmacs-dev@gnu.org, + daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +In-Reply-To: <000501c291a2$83f70a50$6501a8c0@Asus> +Message-ID: +MIME-Version: 1.0 +Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1 +Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable +X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by matups.math.u-psud.fr id gAN8JAj16586 +Subject: [Axiom-developer] RE: [Texmacs-dev] Axiom and TeXmacs +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +> > Maybe we should preprocess the pamphlet file using Perl +> > before doing the conversion. I think that St=E9phane +> > Payrard might be willing to help us with that. +>=20 +> If I understand you correctly, I do not think a Perl +> filter is a good approach. I have nothing against Perl +> as such, its just that I think the goal should be more +> than loading a pamphlet file into TeXmacs in a readable +> manner. +>=20 +> I think there should be a new File->Import->Pamphlet +> option for this case. The result of importing a pamphlet +> should be a TeXmacs document with a folded structure. +> The code chunks should appear folded into the document so +> that when viewed or printed with a style called "weave" +> for example, the result would be the same as the output +> of +>=20 +> noweave | latex +>=20 +> A different style which displayed the contents of the +> folded chunks could be used for editing. Code chunks +> have to be named and will also have references to +> other code chunks embedded in them. + +Well, as I understand it, the pamphlet format is +a LaTeX with special escape sequences for dealing +with code or other special markup. Therefore, +I think that the best way of importing such files +is to first convert it to standard LaTeX +(with possible pamphlet-specific commands), +with a language like Perl, and next convert +the result to TeXmacs using the standard input filter. + +> Perhaps it would be nicer if TeXmacs was able to +> expand and collapse folds on demand. It is not really +> clear to me hold folding is intended to work in TeXmacs. +> I wasn't able to find any documentation about it and +> my experiments with it so far have not produced a clear +> picture. Perhaps it is still largely in the planning +> stage?=20 + +Yes, this will be dealt with sometime next year. + +> Finally there should be an new File->Export->Tangle +> menu option that would generate code and be equivalent +> to +>=20 +> notangle +>=20 +> which expands the code chunks starting with the root +> <<*>>=3D and including all the referenced code chunks +> in the whole tree structure. + +Yes, that should not be difficult. + +> We could also have a Tools->Selections->Export->Tangle +> option that applies notangle starting with a selected +> code chunk instead of the root. + +Yes, we systematically do that for all formats. + +> > > Joris, can you point me at some specific part of +> > > the TeXmacs docs that will help us develop a pamphlet +> > > "style" file. A style file that properly handle +> > > noweb vanilla output would be quite useful. +> >=20 +> > Help -> Styles +> >=20 +> > Unfortunately, the documentation is very incomplete, +> > because the support for writing style files will be +> > much improved at a not yet specified date... +>=20 +> Perhaps it would help to be able to look at some +> existing styles that do something similar to what +> we want. What would you recommend? + +I think that we first need to know what you already have. +Also: how much documentation does already exist in +the pamphlet format? + + + + +From bill.page1@sympatico.ca Sat Nov 23 08:56:01 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18FalM-0001G4-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 08:56:01 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18FalJ-0001Cp-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 08:55:59 -0500 +Received: from tomts16.bellnexxia.net ([209.226.175.4] helo=tomts16-srv.bellnexxia.net) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18FalI-0001C2-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 08:55:56 -0500 +Received: from Asus ([216.209.110.38]) by tomts16-srv.bellnexxia.net + (InterMail vM.5.01.04.19 201-253-122-122-119-20020516) with ESMTP + id <20021123135554.PTEO15542.tomts16-srv.bellnexxia.net@Asus>; + Sat, 23 Nov 2002 08:55:54 -0500 +From: "Bill Page" +To: "'Joris van der Hoeven'" +Cc: , + , + +Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 08:55:50 -0500 +Message-ID: <000001c292f8$0a0aa650$6501a8c0@Asus> +MIME-Version: 1.0 +Content-Type: text/plain; + charset="us-ascii" +Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit +X-Priority: 3 (Normal) +X-MSMail-Priority: Normal +X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4024 +In-Reply-To: +X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 +Importance: Normal +Subject: [Axiom-developer] RE: [Texmacs-dev] Axiom and TeXmacs +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +On Saturday, November 23, 2002 3:19 AM Joris van der Hoeven +TeXmacs@math.u-psud.fr wrote: +> ... +> Well, as I understand it, the pamphlet format is +> a LaTeX with special escape sequences for dealing +> with code or other special markup. Therefore, +> I think that the best way of importing such files +> is to first convert it to standard LaTeX +> (with possible pamphlet-specific commands), +> with a language like Perl, and next convert +> the result to TeXmacs using the standard input filter. + +Yes and no. Tim, please correct me if I make a mistake +here... + +The pamphlet format is really noweb input format. As +Norman Ramsey defines it, the input to noweb is quite +language independent and very simple. noweb is a +simplified version of Knuth's web ("no" for Norman, +I guess). All we have are named "code" chunks e.g. + + <>= ... <> ... @ + +which may reference other code chunks, e.g. +<> above, embedded in a text stream. Text +areas start with @ (except first). There are two +primary operations to be done on this file. One is +"weave" which extracts just the text stream (no code) +and the other is "tangle" which expands a given code +chunk (by default starting with the root chunk <<*>>=) +by including all of the other code chunks referenced +in that chunk, recursively. It is possible to +generate different results from the same input file +by specifying a different root for tangle. + +It is true that the text stream is usually LaTex +code but I don't think that is a requirement of +noweb. The code chunks can also be in any language. + +I believe Tim Daly defined the term "pamphlet" to +refer to the noweb input files that he is using in +the open source axiom project. These will (I presume) +always have a LaTex text stream part plus code +chunks in several different languages: makefile +script, C, lisp, SPAD (axiom specific), etc. I think +Tim has in mind also using such pamphlet files to +exchange axiom code between users. + +And of course we also plan to use TeXmacs as +a front-end to axiom itself as a high level user +interface capable of entering and displaying +mathematics in a rich graphics format. + +So when importing a pamphlet file into TeXmacs, +it is desirable to interpret the text stream part +of the input file as LaTex and convert it +appropriately, but it is also important to retain +the code chunks in their place in the original +file. What I was suggesting below was that it +seemed natural to me to treat these chunks as +"folded" into the TeXmacs document. That way, +when the folds are collapsed (closed), the +document would have the appearance of LaTex applied +to the weave output and would print that way. But +one could open a folded code chunk and edit it. +The only new thing would be expanding code chunks +during a "tangle" export. This could be done +easily just by extracting all code chunks and +then calling notangle. + +> +> > Perhaps it would be nicer if TeXmacs was able to +> > expand and collapse folds on demand. It is not +> > really clear to me hold folding is intended to +> > work in TeXmacs. I wasn't able to find any +> > documentation about it and my experiments with +> > it so far have not produced a clear picture. +> > Perhaps it is still largely in the planning stage? +> +> Yes, this will be dealt with sometime next year. +> + +Would you be interested in having someone (me) help +to accelerate that schedule? Are there other people +interested in the "fold" concept? + +> > ... +> > Perhaps it would help to be able to look at some +> > existing styles that do something similar to what +> > we want. What would you recommend? +> +> I think that we first need to know what you already +> have. + +There are LaTex "styles" and TeXmacs "styles". These +are different, right? So far I think Tim has only +made use of only relatively standard LaTex style +files. + +The reason I mentioned TeXmacs styles is because +that is the only way thing that I could find at +this time that interacts with how folded text is +displayed. Perhaps that is not the way you intend +to go with folds? + +> Also: how much documentation does already exist +> in the pamphlet format? +> + +We are only at the beginning of the project. Did +you have in mind some other format? + +Regards, +Bill Page. + + + + +From daly@idsi.net Sat Nov 23 12:21:38 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18FdyL-0004o8-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 12:21:37 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18FdyI-0004jI-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 12:21:37 -0500 +Received: from flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.232]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18FdyE-0004gL-00; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 12:21:30 -0500 +Received: from dialup-63.215.227.131.dial1.stamford1.level3.net ([63.215.227.131] helo=localhost.localdomain) + by flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) + id 18Fdy7-0005vW-00; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 09:21:24 -0800 +Received: (from root@localhost) + by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.6) id gANHHqI12842; + Sat, 23 Nov 2002 12:17:52 -0500 +Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 12:17:52 -0500 +Message-Id: <200211231717.gANHHqI12842@localhost.localdomain> +From: root +To: "'Joris van der Hoeven'" +Cc: , , , + "Bill Page" , Norman Ramsey , + axiom-mail@nongnu.org, Barry Trager , + Manuel Bronstein , + William Sit +Reply-to: daly@idsi.net +Subject: [Axiom-developer] noweb, pamphlets, and TeXmacs +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +All, + +I've written some tutorial notes on the pamphlet idea to try to get +everyone at the same level of discussion. Essentially what Bill +has been pursuing is a way to integrate noweb and TeXmacs so that +we can support pamphlet file documents. As there is some confusion +about what each part is I've decided to write it out in full. +Feel free to complain about mistakes. + +Bill's ideas are essentially correct. His note is attached. + +================= +RE: NOWEB +================= + +Knuth and Dijkstra advocated literate programming to try to solve +the problem of marrying the knowledge behind a program with the +text of the program itself. Knuth wrote Web which was designed to +work with Pascal thus: + + .web formatted document + | | + | ------> tangle ----> pascal code ----> compile ---> execute + ----------> weave ----> tex format ----> latex ---> read + +As this was Pascal-specific various other language-specific versions +were generated, e.g. CWeb for C. + +Norman's innovation is that we don't need to be language specific. +With just a few additional tags above TeX we gain great power. + +Since Axiom uses many forms of code (Makefiles, C, lisp, boot, spad, etc) +this is a key idea. We need to be able to embed many things transparently. +If we remove the language-specific options and simplify things we +can reduce the problem to this: + + + .noweb formatted document + | | + | ------> notangle ----> any code ----> compile ---> execute + ----------> noweave ----> tex format ----> latex ---> read + +Norman's implementation is called noweb. In essence, a noweb document +consists of alternations of code chunks and text blocks. A code +block is marked by: + +<<(some string)>>= + + code + +@ + +Code chunks continue until encountering an @ in column 1 or another +chunk marker (the <<(some string)>>= tag). + +The trailing equal sign marks this as a "definition" of the (some +string) block. Lack of a trailing equal sign marks this as a "use" +of the (some string) block. Uses are expanded by notangle. + +Another important idea is that multiple occurences of the definition +string are concatenated into one definition thus: + +<>= + code 1 +@ +.... +<>= + code 2 +@ +.... +<> ==> expands into: + code 1 + code 2 + +We use this idea extensively in the documentation of code. + +Text blocks are all that are not code chunks. Text blocks are tex +formatted document blocks. + + +================= +RE: TEXMACS +================= + +TeXmacs is neither emacs not TeX but is an interesting cross-product +of the two ideas. Joris set out to make a useful front-end to a +computer algebra system and ended up with a generally useful tool. +It communicates with many computer algebra systems and is able to +properly format the math output in TeX style yet retain it as a +live object that can be handed back to the underlying system. In +addition, TeXmacs is able to properly format a large subset of +Tex and Latex documents. + +TeXmacs, as Bill has been pointing out, is an excellent target for +an Axiom front-end. It already can talk directly to Axiom's interpreter +and embed the output into the TeXmacs buffer. It can already display +the .tex output from noweb. + +Support for native noweb format would be most useful. The subtle +distinction that Bill was mentioning is that currently we can take +the "tex format" output and display it in TeXmacs. However, we would +like to fully support noweb as a standard format. This implies a couple +changes. + +As mentioned above noweb does: + + .noweb formatted document + | | + | ------> notangle ----> any code ----> compile ---> execute + ----------> noweave ----> tex format ----> latex ---> read + +If TeXmacs understood the noweb format fully it would need to have +the following features: + +0) The ability to recognize and format a code chunk. +1) The ability to recognize the <>=, concatenation, and <> + features of the code chunks. +2) The ability to create a "notangled" buffer from the current buffer + that would contain the formatted code. + + Ideally you could make changes in the formatted code and have the + changes reflected back into the original buffer. Some of these + changes could be problematic. + +3) The ability to create a "noweave" buffer from the current buffer + that would contain the formatted document. + + The same comment as above applies. It would take some careful + design to properly "untangle" some changes. + +4) Bill has suggested that the folding mechanism know about the code + chunks and be able to fold and unfold them. Perhaps the way to + make the "untangle" work would be to ignore the separate buffer + idea above and just use folding. I have no opinion about either + path yet. + + It is very important that NO changes occur in the code chunks. + If TeXmacs or noweb or any other tool does not understand the + format it must maintain "transparency". That is, it must NOT + try to format things in the code chunks. Other tools have special + needs (e.g. Makefiles care about tabs) and you can't change + the code chunks because they will be output to other tools. + +5) There are other ideas, not yet exposed, that it would be nice to + have supported. I guess I need to talk more about the pamphlet + idea in depth. + + +================= +RE: PAMPHLET FILES AND THE PRESENT +================= + +Pamphlet files are now the native format for code and documentation. +There are no longer any Makefile, C, lisp, boot or spad files in the +system. All file formats have been subsumed into pamphlet files. + +Currently .pamphlet documents, except for a recent patch, are +normal .noweb formatted documents. They have very little structure +at the moment. + +Here is the way things currently interact: + + .pamphlet formatted document + | | + | ------> notangle ----> any code ----> compile ---> execute + ----------> noweave ----> tex format ----> latex ---> read + +Pamphlet files are currently being used to document the internals +of Axiom. A file written originally in Boot is now written as a +pamphlet file. The pamphlet file is expanded and the rest of the +compile process takes place thus: + +Originally: + + foo.boot -> (translate) -> foo.lisp -> (compile) -> foo.o (load) ..... + +Now: + + foo.pamphlet + | | + | -> notangle -> foo.boot -> (translate) .... + -----> noweave -> foo.tex -> latex -> read + + +================= +RE: PAMPHLET FILES AND THE FUTURE +================= + +However, pamphlet files have a larger purpose besides documenting +internals of the system. Axiom has a large amount of algebra code +written in SPAD, a high level language. Much of the research behind +this code is hidden away in libraries. I'm hoping to use literate +programming to join these two threads, the theory and the implementation, +into a unified whole and then expand it beyond a simple join. + +The end vision of using literate programming in Axiom is that you can +receive a "Booklet" which gives the theory and implementation of some +area of math, say linear algebra. The "Booklet" is composed of +"pamphlets" (not the same concept as a chapter but that's close +enough). + +Suppose you have an Axiom system. If you receive a Booklet you can +"drag and drop" the Booklet onto the system. It decomposes the Booklet +into Pamphlets, follows the references to pick up required pamphlets, +compiles the code, expands the user documentation into the proper +format, sets up example files for use, runs test cases to ensure that +functions work, adds the documentation to the theory tree, and washes +the dirty dishes. + +Booklet format or Pamphlet format would be the standard format +for submission to an "Axiom Journal". This journal would allow +people to test code that was submitted with the theory. After all, +we expect Physics and Chemistry experiments to be reproduced and +validated; why not Computational Mathematics? + +Booklets can be composed from a running system in (at least) two +directions. + +First, you compose a set of Pamphlet files "across the system" so that +you could document, say, all of the matrix facilities currently +available. + +Second, you compose a set of Pamphlet files "thru the system" so that +you could document, say, the integration mechanism from the top level +function all the way to the implementation details. + +Thus you can insert and extract Booklets with Axiom making it easier +to share knowledge. + +Future: + + Linear Algebra Booklet + | + |-> NullSpace.pamphlet + | | | | + | | | -> notangle -> nullspace.spad -> + | | -----> noweave -> nullspace.tex -> latex -> read + | |--------> dereference -> load and use other code.spad -> + | |--------> userdocs -> update Axioms user documentation + | |--------> testcase -> run test cases + | |--------> examples -> input files + | |--------> textbook -> update Axiom's current textbook + | |--------> proofs -> ACL2, MetaPRL files + |-> Pivots.pamphlet + ...... + +Huge dream, I realize, but except for the dishes, I see no technical +reason why it can't be done. + +This implies, of course, that Pamphlets can be decomposed into a +finer level of detail which is still under development. + +================= +RE: PAMPHLET FILES AND THE NEAR TERM +================= + +All of which implies a huge amount of work. It would be great +to have a front-end that supported both the current and future +directions. + +RE: NOWEB CHANGES + +Currently noweb needs to expand the chunk definition syntax +to handle some more general scheme such as a URL. We need to +be able to extract code chunks from other pamphlets so that +you can have the following situation: + +pamphlet A: (the definition document) + ... + <>= + ... + +pamphlet B: (the using document) + ... + <> + ... + +It would be useful if this could happen for text blocks also +so that generally useful descriptions could be inserted into +multiple pamphlets. Since the text blocks currently have +no label this becomes problematic. We need to develop text +labels so we can follow a uniform scheme. Multiple text blocks +containing essentially the same information already exist in +the system. This needs to be fixed. + +For larger references (e.g. whole pamphlets) I'm currently +using the bibliography environment. However, I plan to have +a new Latex tag, say PAMPHLETREFS, that have a bibtex-like +reference set. Tags in this environment point to other +pamphlet files. Perhaps the "URL syntax" proposed above +could use the \PCITE{} tag instead: + +pamphlet A: (the definition document) + ... + <>= + ... + +pamphlet B: (the using document) + ... + <<\pcite{3}{foo}>> + ... + + +Anybody who understands bibtex and would like +to take a shot at this is welcome. + +RE: TEXMACS CHANGES + +Currently TeXmacs could take the following steps, probably as +a joint effort, to support Axiom: + +1) Recognize noweb format +2) Integrate commands to notangle and noweave +3) Possibly either support + a) folding out code + b) notangle, noweave to "dependent" buffers + c) backport changes to "dependent" buffers to the original document + d) possibly all of the above +4) Integrate noweb.sty + Eventually this will evolve into Axiom.sty as we need to add + more latex macros, like \begin{theorem}, \begin{userdoc}, + \begin{pamphletrefs}, etc + +Perhaps we can lay out a more detailed plan that includes various +steps we can all work on. + +I'm willing to help with any steps taken in this direction. +Feedback is welcome. + +Tim + + + +------------------------- forwarded note --------------------------- +On Saturday, November 23, 2002 3:19 AM Joris van der Hoeven +TeXmacs@math.u-psud.fr wrote: +> ... +> Well, as I understand it, the pamphlet format is +> a LaTeX with special escape sequences for dealing +> with code or other special markup. Therefore, +> I think that the best way of importing such files +> is to first convert it to standard LaTeX +> (with possible pamphlet-specific commands), +> with a language like Perl, and next convert +> the result to TeXmacs using the standard input filter. + +Yes and no. Tim, please correct me if I make a mistake +here... + +The pamphlet format is really noweb input format. As +Norman Ramsey defines it, the input to noweb is quite +language independent and very simple. noweb is a +simplified version of Knuth's web ("no" for Norman, +I guess). All we have are named "code" chunks e.g. + + <>= ... <> ... @ + +which may reference other code chunks, e.g. +<> above, embedded in a text stream. Text +areas start with @ (except first). There are two +primary operations to be done on this file. One is +"weave" which extracts just the text stream (no code) +and the other is "tangle" which expands a given code +chunk (by default starting with the root chunk <<*>>=) +by including all of the other code chunks referenced +in that chunk, recursively. It is possible to +generate different results from the same input file +by specifying a different root for tangle. + +It is true that the text stream is usually LaTex +code but I don't think that is a requirement of +noweb. The code chunks can also be in any language. + +I believe Tim Daly defined the term "pamphlet" to +refer to the noweb input files that he is using in +the open source axiom project. These will (I presume) +always have a LaTex text stream part plus code +chunks in several different languages: makefile +script, C, lisp, SPAD (axiom specific), etc. I think +Tim has in mind also using such pamphlet files to +exchange axiom code between users. + +And of course we also plan to use TeXmacs as +a front-end to axiom itself as a high level user +interface capable of entering and displaying +mathematics in a rich graphics format. + +So when importing a pamphlet file into TeXmacs, +it is desirable to interpret the text stream part +of the input file as LaTex and convert it +appropriately, but it is also important to retain +the code chunks in their place in the original +file. What I was suggesting below was that it +seemed natural to me to treat these chunks as +"folded" into the TeXmacs document. That way, +when the folds are collapsed (closed), the +document would have the appearance of LaTex applied +to the weave output and would print that way. But +one could open a folded code chunk and edit it. +The only new thing would be expanding code chunks +during a "tangle" export. This could be done +easily just by extracting all code chunks and +then calling notangle. + +> +> > Perhaps it would be nicer if TeXmacs was able to +> > expand and collapse folds on demand. It is not +> > really clear to me hold folding is intended to +> > work in TeXmacs. I wasn't able to find any +> > documentation about it and my experiments with +> > it so far have not produced a clear picture. +> > Perhaps it is still largely in the planning stage? +> +> Yes, this will be dealt with sometime next year. +> + +Would you be interested in having someone (me) help +to accelerate that schedule? Are there other people +interested in the "fold" concept? + +> > ... +> > Perhaps it would help to be able to look at some +> > existing styles that do something similar to what +> > we want. What would you recommend? +> +> I think that we first need to know what you already +> have. + +There are LaTex "styles" and TeXmacs "styles". These +are different, right? So far I think Tim has only +made use of only relatively standard LaTex style +files. + +The reason I mentioned TeXmacs styles is because +that is the only way thing that I could find at +this time that interacts with how folded text is +displayed. Perhaps that is not the way you intend +to go with folds? + +> Also: how much documentation does already exist +> in the pamphlet format? +> + +We are only at the beginning of the project. Did +you have in mind some other format? + +Regards, +Bill Page. + + + + +From bill.page1@sympatico.ca Sat Nov 23 14:05:15 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18Ffac-0000tY-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 14:05:14 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18FfaY-0000mP-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 14:05:12 -0500 +Received: from tomts19-srv.bellnexxia.net ([209.226.175.73]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18FfaX-0000iz-00; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 14:05:09 -0500 +Received: from Asus ([209.226.189.119]) by tomts19-srv.bellnexxia.net + (InterMail vM.5.01.04.19 201-253-122-122-119-20020516) with ESMTP + id <20021123190505.UIIP27245.tomts19-srv.bellnexxia.net@Asus>; + Sat, 23 Nov 2002 14:05:05 -0500 +From: "Bill Page" +To: , + "'Joris van der Hoeven'" +Cc: , + , + "'Norman Ramsey'" , + , + "'Barry Trager'" , + "'Manuel Bronstein'" , + "'William Sit'" +Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 14:05:01 -0500 +Message-ID: <000001c29323$3b705070$6601a8c0@Asus> +MIME-Version: 1.0 +Content-Type: text/plain; + charset="us-ascii" +Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit +X-Priority: 3 (Normal) +X-MSMail-Priority: Normal +X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4024 +Importance: Normal +In-Reply-To: <200211231717.gANHHqI12842@localhost.localdomain> +X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 +Subject: [Axiom-developer] RE: noweb, pamphlets, and TeXmacs +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Tim, + +Thanks for the treatise on noweb etc. + +On Saturday, November 23, 2002 12:18 PM +daly@idsi.net wrote: + +>... +> RE: NOWEB CHANGES +> +> Currently noweb needs to expand the chunk definition syntax +> to handle some more general scheme such as a URL. We need to +> be able to extract code chunks from other pamphlets so that +> you can have the following situation: +> +> pamphlet A: (the definition document) +> ... +> <>= +> ... +> +> pamphlet B: (the using document) +> ... +> <> +> ... +> + +Sounds cool to me! Hypercode - perhaps the ultimate form +of open source. Maybe someone's thought of this before? + +I especially like the idea of using code that is contained +within its own (presumably complete) documentation. + +> It would be useful if this could happen for text blocks +> also so that generally useful descriptions could be +> inserted into multiple pamphlets. Since the text blocks +> currently have no label this becomes problematic. We need +> to develop text labels so we can follow a uniform scheme. +> Multiple text blocks containing essentially the same +> information already exist in the system. This needs to be +> fixed. +> + +Why not just forget what is now the text part and +simply have at least two pre-defined roots, one +for code and one for documentation? Then tangle does +both jobs. + +Regards, +Bill Page. + + + + +From wyscc@cunyvm.cuny.edu Sun Nov 24 01:52:05 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18Fqce-0008SL-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 01:52:04 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18FqcZ-0008Mq-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 01:52:03 -0500 +Received: from pop017pub.verizon.net ([206.46.170.210] helo=pop017.verizon.net) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18FqcY-00088S-00; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 01:51:58 -0500 +Received: from cunyvm.cuny.edu ([151.202.188.144]) by pop017.verizon.net + (InterMail vM.5.01.05.09 201-253-122-126-109-20020611) with ESMTP + id <20021124065152.WRBZ1423.pop017.verizon.net@cunyvm.cuny.edu>; + Sun, 24 Nov 2002 00:51:52 -0600 +Message-ID: <3DE07701.FA856C02@cunyvm.cuny.edu> +Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 01:51:45 -0500 +From: William Sit +Reply-To: wyscc@cunyvm.cuny.edu +Organization: City College of New York +X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; U) +X-Accept-Language: zh,en +MIME-Version: 1.0 +To: daly@idsi.net +CC: 'Joris van der Hoeven' , + texmacs-dev@gnu.org, axiom-developer@nongnu.org, + Bill Page , + Norman Ramsey , axiom-mail@nongnu.org, + Barry Trager , + Manuel Bronstein +References: <200211231717.gANHHqI12842@localhost.localdomain> +Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii +Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit +X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH PLAIN at pop017.verizon.net from [151.202.188.144] at Sun, 24 Nov 2002 00:51:51 -0600 +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: noweb, pamphlets, and TeXmacs +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Just a simple comment on: + +> Currently noweb needs to expand the chunk definition syntax +> to handle some more general scheme such as a URL. + +I object to allowing URL in the pamphlet document, the reason being that +pamplet is designed to be "self-contained" (as much as possible). A URL +is unfortunately not something permanent and the link therefore can +frequently be broken. Unless there is some mechanism to ensure that all +URL are valid and updated, it would not be useful. An example: authors +post preprints to the web. Perhaps because of copyright, the preprints +are withdrawn after publication. The URL pointing to the preprint no +longer works, and no new one can be substituted (even pointing to the +journal does not assure availability because of subscription; pointing +to an archive may violate copyright). + + The trouble is that there is no mechanism for the author of the +pamphlet who cited the URL to be aware or notified when the URL fails +(which may happen years afterwards when someone try that link). If the +goal is to preserve documentation and readability "for eternity", this +would not be acceptable. + + Ideally, it seems we are planning to build Axiom into a mathematical +encyclopedia for symbolic computation, and so references should be as +internal as possible. Of course, we cannot achieve this until "steady +state" occurs, but if this dilemma is not considered and resolved now, +the goal could never be reached. + + The same consideration would require that the Axiom system be always +backward compatible when the language grows to incorporate new +technologies; and if not, there should be automatic translations to +update all existing pamphlets. + +William +-- +William Sit +Department of Mathematics..............Email: wyscc@cunyvm.cuny.edu +City College of New York..........................Tel: 212-650-5179 +Convent Ave at West 138th Street..................Fax: 212-862-0004 +New York, NY 10031.....Asian Symposium on Computer Mathematics 2003 +USA..........................http://www.mmrc.iss.ac.cn/~ascm/ascm03 + + + +From daly@idsi.net Sun Nov 24 10:00:29 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18FyFI-0001QI-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 10:00:28 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18FyFE-0001O5-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 10:00:27 -0500 +Received: from albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.120] helo=albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18FyF7-0001F6-00; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 10:00:17 -0500 +Received: from dialup-65.59.73.45.dial1.stamford1.level3.net ([65.59.73.45] helo=localhost.localdomain) + by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) + id 18FyEq-0004cV-00; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 07:00:00 -0800 +Received: (from root@localhost) + by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.6) id gAOEuQh21874; + Sun, 24 Nov 2002 09:56:26 -0500 +Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 09:56:26 -0500 +Message-Id: <200211241456.gAOEuQh21874@localhost.localdomain> +From: root +To: wyscc@cunyvm.cuny.edu +CC: daly@idsi.net, TeXmacs@math.u-psud.fr, texmacs-dev@gnu.org, + axiom-developer@nongnu.org, bill.page1@sympatico.ca, nr@eecs.harvard.edu, + axiom-mail@nongnu.org, bmt@us.ibm.com, Manuel.Bronstein@sophia.inria.fr +In-reply-to: <3DE07701.FA856C02@cunyvm.cuny.edu> (message from William Sit on + Sun, 24 Nov 2002 01:51:45 -0500) +Reply-to: daly@idsi.net +References: <200211231717.gANHHqI12842@localhost.localdomain> <3DE07701.FA856C02@cunyvm.cuny.edu> +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: noweb, pamphlets, and TeXmacs +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Bill, + +The URLs are all assumed to be internal, hence the pamphlet: +prefix. I only wanted to steal the syntax since parsers are +available and the syntax is already defined. Nothing about +Axiom is intended to point elsewhere. + +The key issue is that I'd like to share code chunks and text blocks +between pamphlets. I can do this with \include tex macros but the +macros do not know the pamphlet file format. URLs (PRLs? Pamphlet +resource locators?) + +Consider the issue of describing the way your code makes novel use +of some routine out of another document, say DHMATRIX.spad.pamphlet. +Rather than either copying the code or including a makefile +that will build both documents and strip the code block (both +solutions work) you could just <>. + +You do make a good point that this technology cries for abuse. +Perhaps a new syntax and working could correct that. + +Tim + + + + + + + +From fauser@spock.physik.uni-konstanz.de Sun Nov 24 10:36:20 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18Fynz-0005da-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 10:36:19 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18Fynw-0005bc-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 10:36:18 -0500 +Received: from spock.physik.uni-konstanz.de ([134.34.143.6]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18Fynu-0005aw-00; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 10:36:14 -0500 +Received: from clifford.physik.uni-konstanz.de (clifford [134.34.143.32]) + by spock.physik.uni-konstanz.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA07934; + Sun, 24 Nov 2002 16:24:11 +0100 (MET) +Received: from clifford.physik.uni-konstanz.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) + by clifford.physik.uni-konstanz.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/SuSE Linux 0.6) with ESMTP id gAOFaHjM023188; + Sun, 24 Nov 2002 16:36:17 +0100 +Received: from localhost (fauser@localhost) + by clifford.physik.uni-konstanz.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) with ESMTP id gAOFaGjL023185; + Sun, 24 Nov 2002 16:36:16 +0100 +Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 16:36:16 +0100 (CET) +From: Bertfried Fauser +Reply-To: Bertfried.Fauser@uni-konstanz.de +To: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +cc: axiom-mail@nongnu.org +In-Reply-To: <200211241456.gAOEuQh21874@localhost.localdomain> +Message-ID: +MIME-Version: 1.0 +Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII +Subject: [Axiom-developer] axiom mailing lists +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Dear All, + + I follow with great interest and emphasis the mails in the +axiom-mail and axiom-developer mailing lists. However, if you dump all +messages into both lists, one gets really spamed by copies of identical +mails. + + I would also appreciate if replies would contain only those parts +of the original message which are relavant, e.g. the very helpfull and +nice desciption of the pamphlet format was received some 4 to 5 times, and +in such long mail replies its very cumbersome to scan the whole several +kB long mail if reasonable further comments supplied. + + Sorry if this is mail, comming from an inactive listener to the +lists, is considered unpolite, I would appologize for that. + +yours sincerely +BF. + +% Bertfried Fauser Fachbereich Physik Fach M 678 +% Universit"at Konstanz 78457 Konstanz Germany +% Phone : +49 7531 883786 FAX : +49 7531 88-4864 or 4266 +% E-mail: Bertfried.Fauser@uni-konstanz.de +% Web : http://clifford.physik.uni-konstanz.de/~fauser + + + + +From daly@idsi.net Sun Nov 24 10:43:07 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18FyuZ-000782-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 10:43:07 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18FyuW-00075i-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 10:43:06 -0500 +Received: from flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.232]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18FyuT-000728-00; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 10:43:01 -0500 +Received: from dialup-65.59.73.45.dial1.stamford1.level3.net ([65.59.73.45] helo=localhost.localdomain) + by flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) + id 18FyuK-0004C8-00; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 07:42:53 -0800 +Received: (from root@localhost) + by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.6) id gAOFdIN21913; + Sun, 24 Nov 2002 10:39:18 -0500 +Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 10:39:18 -0500 +Message-Id: <200211241539.gAOFdIN21913@localhost.localdomain> +From: root +To: wyscc@cunyvm.cuny.edu +CC: daly@idsi.net, TeXmacs@math.u-psud.fr, texmacs-dev@gnu.org, + axiom-developer@nongnu.org, bill.page1@sympatico.ca, nr@eecs.harvard.edu, + axiom-mail@nongnu.org, bmt@us.ibm.com, Manuel.Bronstein@sophia.inria.fr +In-reply-to: <3DE07701.FA856C02@cunyvm.cuny.edu> (message from William Sit on + Sun, 24 Nov 2002 01:51:45 -0500) +Reply-to: daly@idsi.net +References: <200211231717.gANHHqI12842@localhost.localdomain> <3DE07701.FA856C02@cunyvm.cuny.edu> +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: noweb, pamphlets, and TeXmacs +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Bill, + +About PRLs (Pamphlet URLs)... + +The key reason, which didn't leap to mind this morning, is that +they are the enabling technology behind "Booklets". The Booklet +is intended to collect Pamphlets into a joined form. However, +for purposes of a readable exposition, it will almost certainly +be necessary to quote sections of the Pamphlets "out of order". + +Consider what happens when you try to explain all of the matrix +facilities, which are individually described in Pamphlets, as one +Booklet. Clearly one could use the "Big Staple" approach and just +concatenate them. However, it would be better if the Booklet were +more organized. Booklets need to quote portions of the Pamphlets. +You could clearly do this by copying but it would be better to +use <> style references. + +Tim + + + + + + + +From TeXmacs@math.u-psud.fr Sun Nov 24 11:07:07 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18FzHn-0007Qo-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 11:07:07 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18FzHj-0007Ha-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 11:07:06 -0500 +Received: from matups.math.u-psud.fr ([129.175.50.4]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18FzHi-0007HS-00; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 11:07:03 -0500 +Received: from anh.math.u-psud.fr (anh.math.u-psud.fr [129.175.50.156]) + by matups.math.u-psud.fr (8.11.6/jtpda-5.3.3) with ESMTP id gAOG71j21081 + ; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 17:07:02 +0100 (MET) +Received: from anh (anh [129.175.50.156]) + by anh.math.u-psud.fr (Postfix) with SMTP + id 3CC2CB2C8; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 17:07:01 +0100 (MET) +Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 17:07:01 +0100 (MET) +From: Joris van der Hoeven +X-Sender: texmacs@anh +To: Bill Page +Cc: "'Joris van der Hoeven'" , texmacs-dev@gnu.org, + daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +In-Reply-To: <000001c292f8$0a0aa650$6501a8c0@Asus> +Message-ID: +MIME-Version: 1.0 +Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII +Subject: [Axiom-developer] RE: [Texmacs-dev] Axiom and TeXmacs +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +> > Also: how much documentation does already exist +> > in the pamphlet format? +> +> We are only at the beginning of the project. Did +> you have in mind some other format? + +I would advocate using the TeXmacs format in that case, +so that we won't have to write specialized converters, +and maintain them for every change in the format. + +Operations on pamphlet documents like extraction of +the code or the documentation may be seen as particular +instances of operations on structured documents. +In other words, operations like "tangle" might be +written directly in scheme (so that they can be invoked +using a shell/scheme script). + +Notice that we have started to adopt a similar strategy +for the online documentation of TeXmacs: documentation +is subdivided in small entities which can be treated +independently (maintainance, translations, etc.). +We next provide markup and programs to reconstitute +complete documentation (like a full manual) from these pages. + +This process is still at a very early stage and we plan to improve it +slowly but steadily. In the future, we plan for instance to add better +tools for cross-citation, automatic searching, several possible views +of documentation, folding, etc. We also plan to enhance the tools for +writing documentation: specialized menus, collective authoring via +the web, and so on. + + + + +From TeXmacs@math.u-psud.fr Sun Nov 24 12:17:44 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18G0O7-0005fP-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 12:17:43 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18G0O2-0005Uz-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 12:17:42 -0500 +Received: from matups.math.u-psud.fr ([129.175.50.4]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18G0Nv-00058x-00; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 12:17:31 -0500 +Received: from anh.math.u-psud.fr (anh.math.u-psud.fr [129.175.50.156]) + by matups.math.u-psud.fr (8.11.6/jtpda-5.3.3) with ESMTP id gAOHHQj21314 + ; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 18:17:26 +0100 (MET) +Received: from anh (anh [129.175.50.156]) + by anh.math.u-psud.fr (Postfix) with SMTP + id AE41DB2C8; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 18:17:25 +0100 (MET) +Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 18:17:25 +0100 (MET) +From: Joris van der Hoeven +X-Sender: texmacs@anh +To: root +Cc: "'Joris van der Hoeven'" , texmacs-dev@gnu.org, + axiom-developer@nongnu.org, Bill Page , + Norman Ramsey , axiom-mail@nongnu.org, + Barry Trager , + Manuel Bronstein , + William Sit +In-Reply-To: <200211231717.gANHHqI12842@localhost.localdomain> +Message-ID: +MIME-Version: 1.0 +Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: noweb, pamphlets, and TeXmacs +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Thanks for the detailed tutorial, Tim. + +> Knuth and Dijkstra advocated literate programming to try to solve +> the problem of marrying the knowledge behind a program with the +> text of the program itself. Knuth wrote Web which was designed to +> work with Pascal thus: +> +> .web formatted document +> | | +> | ------> tangle ----> pascal code ----> compile ---> execute +> ----------> weave ----> tex format ----> latex ---> read +> +> As this was Pascal-specific various other language-specific versions +> were generated, e.g. CWeb for C. +> +> Norman's innovation is that we don't need to be language specific. +> With just a few additional tags above TeX we gain great power. + +I also would like to stress that 1) there is no reason to stick to +only two possible ways of extraction (tangle and weave) and +2) that the language independence might also hold for weave. + +> In addition, TeXmacs is able to properly format a large subset of +> Tex and Latex documents. + +Notice that TeXmacs is not just capable to properly format a large +subset of TeX/LaTeX, but that it also provides markup which is not +available in TeX/LaTeX (hyperlinks, actions, simple folding, etc.). +What is more, like in TeX/LaTeX, you may define your own markup, +and, like in Emacs, construct special editing modes for editing +such markup. This may apply in particular to things like customized +ways of folding, direct execution of an Axiom example from +the documentation, etc. + +> 0) The ability to recognize and format a code chunk. +> 1) The ability to recognize the <>=, concatenation, and <> +> features of the code chunks. + +All you have to do is to add a special tag like "chunk" +with one or more arguments. A preprocessor might then rewrite +your <>= syntax into more standard LaTeX like +\begin{chunk}{...} ... \end{chunk} and then use +the standard input filter. + +However, as I pointed out before, it might be better to directly +use the TeXmacs format with additional tags and write the operations +like tangle and weave in Scheme. + +> 2) The ability to create a "notangled" buffer from the current buffer +> that would contain the formatted code. +> +> Ideally you could make changes in the formatted code and have the +> changes reflected back into the original buffer. Some of these +> changes could be problematic. + +I rather see this as having several possible ways of looking at +pamphlet documents. Also, David Allouche will be working next year on +a way to perform operations like "tangle" and "weave" dynamically during +the editing phase. This presupposes that "tangle" and "weave" become +native operations in TeXmacs, comparible to (but not an instance of) +the application of an XML style. + +> 3) The ability to create a "noweave" buffer from the current buffer +> that would contain the formatted document. +> +> The same comment as above applies. It would take some careful +> design to properly "untangle" some changes. + +Yes, as I said before, there is no reason to distinguish between tangle +and weave and no reason to limit oneself to two operations. + +> 4) Bill has suggested that the folding mechanism know about the code +> chunks and be able to fold and unfold them. Perhaps the way to +> make the "untangle" work would be to ignore the separate buffer +> idea above and just use folding. I have no opinion about either +> path yet. + +In a dynamic editor like TeXmacs, it should be noticed that +folding/unfolding becomes in fact a quite subtle operation. +In fact, one has to think about the kind of semantics that one requires. + +For instance, do you see folding as an operations which makes a change +in the text, or rather like an operation which modifies the view of +a text? The first interpretation is easiest to implement. +In the second case, one has to define the notion of a "view" +(and in particular: what information determines a view?). +Also, you would have to think about how to undo changes. + +Another difficulty has to do with TeXmacs' ability to let the user +define his/her own macros. What should be the semantics of +a macro which is built upon a "fold" tag? + +> 5) There are other ideas, not yet exposed, that it would be nice to +> have supported. I guess I need to talk more about the pamphlet +> idea in depth. + +Well, it would be nice to make up a list of all tags (with options and +everything) which might be useful for pamphlet files. You might also +want to take a look at some (still very rudimentary) ideas in +the tmdoc format. + +At the moment, I mainly see the "chunk" tag as a variant of +our "specific" tag, which is used in order to export content +in a specific way to specific formats. We basically have to +respecify the semantics of such a tag in a very general setting. + +> First, you compose a set of Pamphlet files "across the system" so that +> you could document, say, all of the matrix facilities currently +> available. +> +> Second, you compose a set of Pamphlet files "thru the system" so that +> you could document, say, the integration mechanism from the top level +> function all the way to the implementation details. + +My way of viewing this is the use of one file for each atomic +functionality of the system. Each such file should come with +meta-information like the bigger classes to which it belongs +(linear algebra, topology, etc.). Each file may also contain +information about other relevant related files or how to +traverse files in a sensible order (cf. tmdoc style). +One may then implement special functions into TeXmacs for +extracting the information one needs. + +> Thus you can insert and extract Booklets with Axiom making it easier +> to share knowledge. +> +> Future: +> +> Linear Algebra Booklet +> | +> |-> NullSpace.pamphlet +> | | | | +> | | | -> notangle -> nullspace.spad -> +> | | -----> noweave -> nullspace.tex -> latex -> read +> | |--------> dereference -> load and use other code.spad -> +> | |--------> userdocs -> update Axioms user documentation +> | |--------> testcase -> run test cases +> | |--------> examples -> input files +> | |--------> textbook -> update Axiom's current textbook +> | |--------> proofs -> ACL2, MetaPRL files +> |-> Pivots.pamphlet +> ...... + +Absolutely. + +> Huge dream, I realize, but except for the dishes, I see no technical +> reason why it can't be done. +> +> This implies, of course, that Pamphlets can be decomposed into a +> finer level of detail which is still under development. + +Well, it all boils down to inventing suitable markup tags which +reflect the complexity of the problem. So please give this matter +a thought and come up with some more precise proposals. +After that, we will have a discussion and see how to implement +all this in TeXmacs. + +> Currently noweb needs to expand the chunk definition syntax +> to handle some more general scheme such as a URL. We need to +> be able to extract code chunks from other pamphlets so that +> you can have the following situation: +> +> pamphlet A: (the definition document) +> ... +> <>= +> ... +> +> pamphlet B: (the using document) +> ... +> <> +> ... +> +> It would be useful if this could happen for text blocks also +> so that generally useful descriptions could be inserted into +> multiple pamphlets. Since the text blocks currently have +> no label this becomes problematic. We need to develop text +> labels so we can follow a uniform scheme. Multiple text blocks +> containing essentially the same information already exist in +> the system. This needs to be fixed. +> +> For larger references (e.g. whole pamphlets) I'm currently +> using the bibliography environment. However, I plan to have +> a new Latex tag, say PAMPHLETREFS, that have a bibtex-like +> reference set. Tags in this environment point to other +> pamphlet files. Perhaps the "URL syntax" proposed above +> could use the \PCITE{} tag instead: +> +> pamphlet A: (the definition document) +> ... +> <>= +> ... +> +> pamphlet B: (the using document) +> ... +> <<\pcite{3}{foo}>> +> ... +> +> Anybody who understands bibtex and would like +> to take a shot at this is welcome. + +As I see it now, you have the following ingredients for chunck tags: + +1) A "format" which determines the program which should be used + in order to do extractions. More generally, it reflects the purpose + of the enclosed content (documentation, code, example, etc.). + +2) An "identifier" for specifying how several chunks should be grouped + together. In fact, it might be nice to see this independently from + the chunk tags, but rather as a variant of labels and references. + In other words, logical grouping of different parts of content + may be nice in other circumstances too. + +So maybe we should see the chunk tag as the combination of +two more basic tags: one for specifying the purpose, functionality +or class of a given region of text, and one for grouping scattered +pieces of information. + +> RE: TEXMACS CHANGES +> +> Currently TeXmacs could take the following steps, probably as +> a joint effort, to support Axiom: +> +> 1) Recognize noweb format + +And we should decide whether we want to keep on working with this format, +or whether we want to switch to a format for which it will be easier to +add new features. + +> 2) Integrate commands to notangle and noweave. + +This should be straightforward to write in Scheme once that one has +the appropriate tags. + +> 3) Possibly either support +> a) folding out code + +Please think more precisely about the semantics that +you would like to have. + +> b) notangle, noweave to "dependent" buffers + +Cf. improving the markup for inclusions like in the tmdoc style. + +> c) backport changes to "dependent" buffers to the original document + +Dynamic editing of depending buffers is very likely to require +the "dynamic rewriters" that David Allouche will implement next year; +this will probably take us a year of work. + +I also remind you that TeXmacs does not have a one-to-one mapping with +TeX/LaTeX. In other words, you can not longer use TeX/LaTeX as a reliable +format for explanatory text in this scheme. If you want to edit +the original document using TeXmacs, it is better to either use TeXmacs +as the document format for your pamphlet files, or at least to replace +chunks of LaTeX by chunks of TeXmacs. + +> 4) Integrate noweb.sty +> Eventually this will evolve into Axiom.sty as we need to add +> more latex macros, like \begin{theorem}, \begin{userdoc}, +> \begin{pamphletrefs}, etc + +You should write a noweb.ts TeXmacs style file for this. +Unfortunately, writing style files is not well documented yet, +but you can ask questions on the texmacs-dev list. + + + + +From daly@idsi.net Sun Nov 24 12:31:00 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18G0ay-0008MM-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 12:31:00 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18G0aw-0008M7-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 12:30:59 -0500 +Received: from gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.84]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18G0au-0008Lk-00; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 12:30:56 -0500 +Received: from dialup-65.59.73.45.dial1.stamford1.level3.net ([65.59.73.45] helo=localhost.localdomain) + by gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) + id 18G0ar-0006G6-00; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 09:30:54 -0800 +Received: (from root@localhost) + by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.6) id gAOHRMR21984; + Sun, 24 Nov 2002 12:27:22 -0500 +Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 12:27:22 -0500 +Message-Id: <200211241727.gAOHRMR21984@localhost.localdomain> +From: root +To: TeXmacs@math.u-psud.fr +CC: daly@idsi.net, texmacs-dev@gnu.org, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Reply-to: daly@idsi.net +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: noweb, pamphlets, and TeXmacs +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Joris, + +Is TeXmacs scriptable? That is, can I run it from a Makefile +silently during document generation? The way Axiom is structured +you can build the whole of the system from the sources by typing +"make". This currently includes the tangling for code generation +and weaving for document generation. Porting tangle and weave to +lisp would allow those operations to continue to be scripted. My +question concerns other TeXmacs operations like URL tag following. + +Tim + + + +From TeXmacs@math.u-psud.fr Sun Nov 24 13:20:58 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18G1NK-0007Ju-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 13:20:58 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18G1NI-0007JV-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 13:20:57 -0500 +Received: from mathups.math.u-psud.fr ([129.175.52.4] helo=matups.math.u-psud.fr) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18G1NI-0007I4-00; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 13:20:56 -0500 +Received: from anh.math.u-psud.fr (anh.math.u-psud.fr [129.175.50.156]) + by matups.math.u-psud.fr (8.11.6/jtpda-5.3.3) with ESMTP id gAOIKsj21814 + ; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 19:20:55 +0100 (MET) +Received: from anh (anh [129.175.50.156]) + by anh.math.u-psud.fr (Postfix) with SMTP + id 5157AB2C8; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 19:20:54 +0100 (MET) +Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 19:20:54 +0100 (MET) +From: Joris van der Hoeven +X-Sender: texmacs@anh +To: root +Cc: TeXmacs@math.u-psud.fr, texmacs-dev@gnu.org, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +In-Reply-To: <200211241727.gAOHRMR21984@localhost.localdomain> +Message-ID: +MIME-Version: 1.0 +Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: noweb, pamphlets, and TeXmacs +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +> Is TeXmacs scriptable? That is, can I run it from a Makefile +> silently during document generation? + +Yes, but probably you do not want to run TeXmacs as a script, +but rather Scheme, since you just want to extract information from +the TeXmacs document (which can be saved as a scheme expression). +You might want to run TeXmacs as a script though if you want to use it as +a real typesetter. However, this feature has to be improved, because it is +not very clean yet. + +> The way Axiom is structured +> you can build the whole of the system from the sources by typing +> "make". This currently includes the tangling for code generation +> and weaving for document generation. Porting tangle and weave to +> lisp would allow those operations to continue to be scripted. My +> question concerns other TeXmacs operations like URL tag following. + + + + +From wyscc@cunyvm.cuny.edu Sun Nov 24 13:45:45 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18G1lI-0003Nu-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 13:45:44 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18G1lC-0003B6-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 13:45:41 -0500 +Received: from out002pub.verizon.net ([206.46.170.141] helo=out002.verizon.net) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18G1lB-00037K-00; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 13:45:37 -0500 +Received: from cunyvm.cuny.edu ([151.202.188.144]) by out002.verizon.net + (InterMail vM.5.01.05.09 201-253-122-126-109-20020611) with ESMTP + id <20021124184536.DWEX9109.out002.verizon.net@cunyvm.cuny.edu>; + Sun, 24 Nov 2002 12:45:36 -0600 +Message-ID: <3DE11E49.36D1D69B@cunyvm.cuny.edu> +Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 13:45:29 -0500 +From: William Sit +Reply-To: wyscc@cunyvm.cuny.edu +Organization: City College of New York +X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; U) +X-Accept-Language: zh,en +MIME-Version: 1.0 +To: daly@idsi.net +CC: TeXmacs@math.u-psud.fr, texmacs-dev@gnu.org, + axiom-developer@nongnu.org, bill.page1@sympatico.ca, + nr@eecs.harvard.edu, axiom-mail@nongnu.org, bmt@us.ibm.com, + Manuel.Bronstein@sophia.inria.fr +References: <200211231717.gANHHqI12842@localhost.localdomain> + <3DE07701.FA856C02@cunyvm.cuny.edu> <200211241456.gAOEuQh21874@localhost.localdomain> +Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii +Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit +X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH PLAIN at out002.verizon.net from [151.202.188.144] at Sun, 24 Nov 2002 12:45:35 -0600 +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: noweb, pamphlets, and TeXmacs +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +> The URLs are all assumed to be internal, hence the pamphlet: +> prefix. +> you could just <> +In this case, we agree. I would suggest then that the (path) be left out +and recovered dynamically from the user's installation (much like a +relative html reference, but based on the Pamphlet system installation +directory path). Here I am assuming that a user installs all existing +pamphlets when the new Axiom system is installed. If this is not the +case (as some users may prefer), then some "external" but stable +depository for these pamphlets would be searched (also dynamically +rather than hard coded into the pamphlet). So new versions can update +the external paths without having to change the pamphlets. These updates +can also be done automatically similar to patches to software bugs. + +William +-- +William Sit +Department of Mathematics..............Email: wyscc@cunyvm.cuny.edu +City College of New York..........................Tel: 212-650-5179 +Convent Ave at West 138th Street..................Fax: 212-862-0004 +New York, NY 10031.....Asian Symposium on Computer Mathematics 2003 +USA..........................http://www.mmrc.iss.ac.cn/~ascm/ascm03 + + + +From daly@idsi.net Sun Nov 24 13:50:03 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18G1pS-0004SB-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 13:50:02 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18G1pQ-0004Rq-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 13:50:01 -0500 +Received: from flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.232]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18G1pQ-0004RP-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 13:50:00 -0500 +Received: from dialup-65.59.73.45.dial1.stamford1.level3.net ([65.59.73.45] helo=localhost.localdomain) + by flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) + id 18G1pL-0003li-00; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 10:49:56 -0800 +Received: (from root@localhost) + by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.6) id gAOIkQ922048; + Sun, 24 Nov 2002 13:46:26 -0500 +Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 13:46:26 -0500 +Message-Id: <200211241846.gAOIkQ922048@localhost.localdomain> +From: root +To: wyscc@cunyvm.cuny.edu +CC: daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Reply-to: daly@idsi.net +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: noweb, pamphlets, and TeXmacs +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +>>In this case, we agree. I would suggest then that the (path) be left out +>>and recovered dynamically from the user's installation (much like a +>>relative html reference, but based on the Pamphlet system installation + +Excellent idea. + +Tim + + + +From bill.page1@sympatico.ca Sun Nov 24 14:00:40 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18G1zk-0005V6-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 14:00:40 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18G1ze-0005Pp-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 14:00:38 -0500 +Received: from tomts23.bellnexxia.net ([209.226.175.185] helo=tomts23-srv.bellnexxia.net) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18G1ze-0005Ow-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 14:00:34 -0500 +Received: from Asus ([216.209.110.97]) by tomts23-srv.bellnexxia.net + (InterMail vM.5.01.04.19 201-253-122-122-119-20020516) with ESMTP + id <20021124190028.XMTL1644.tomts23-srv.bellnexxia.net@Asus>; + Sun, 24 Nov 2002 14:00:28 -0500 +From: "Bill Page" +To: "'Joris van der Hoeven'" +Cc: , + , + "'Norman Ramsey'" , + "'Barry Trager'" , + "'Manuel Bronstein'" , + "'William Sit'" , + , + +Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 14:00:24 -0500 +Message-ID: <000201c293eb$c08aba70$6601a8c0@Asus> +MIME-Version: 1.0 +Content-Type: text/plain; + charset="US-ASCII" +Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit +X-Priority: 3 (Normal) +X-MSMail-Priority: Normal +X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4024 +X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 +In-reply-to: +Importance: Normal +Subject: [Axiom-developer] RE: noweb, pamphlets, and TeXmacs +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Everyone, + +I am glad to see that this is such a "hot topic"! + +BTW, I am sorry that some of you (like me) who are +members of multiple lists are likely receive +several copies of this message. It seems sort of +unavoidable for the moment while we are exploring +just how "interdisciplinary" this subject is. Perhaps +some we should absorb this subject back into the Axiom +mailing list since that is where is started. Those +people who are interested will have had a chance +to subscribe if they want to monitor this subject. + +Anyway, I spent some time today thinking about alternate +mark-up languages for pamphlets. I suppose what I do +for a living could not help but intrude on my views +in this project... depressing perhaps, considering +that I would like to view this as an ambitious hobby +rather than "work" ... + +Anyway, I do a lot of work with XML and XSL style sheets +these in the context of large scientific bibliographic +databases. Also, I have been reading about some ideas +expressed on the TeXmacs list about XML. A quick look +at the TeXmacs file format shows many very obvious +relationships to XML. In fact it seems that it could +almost be 1-1 except for a slightly different tag +syntax. There is an awful lot of work being done +these days on XML as the prime candidate "next +generation" structured document language. And it +turns out that "structured documents" have many +many uses. They are a kind of half-way point between +data bases record and free form text documents. + +XSL (or more properly XSLT) is a structured document +transformation language that is itself in XML format. +The main purpose of XSLT these days is to generate +HTML to be displayed in a web browser. The Microsoft +browser and several others even include the XSLT +processor in the browser itself. And implementations +of XSLT processors exist for almost all server +environments. Besides HTML, other output formats are +possible, e.g. PDF format etc. + +So the concept was this (expressed as a question): +How difficult would it be to write an XSLT style +sheet that would perform weave and tangle on an +XML file? I almost sat down to give it an initial +try when I thought about doing a web search on the +subject of "XML" + + http://xmlp.sourceforge.net/ + +and + + http://groups.yahoo.com/group/xml-litprog-l/ + +see also + + http://www.vivtek.com/litprog.html + +Damn the web! It seems that someone somewhere has +always already thought of all the good ideas ... +. + +> From: Joris van der Hoeven [mailto:TeXmacs@math.u-psud.fr] +> Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2002 12:17 PM +> .. +> Notice that TeXmacs is not just capable to properly +> format a large subset of TeX/LaTeX, but that it also +> provides mark-up which is not available in TeX/LaTeX +> (hyperlinks, actions, simple folding, etc.). What +> is more, like in TeX/LaTeX, you may define your own +> mark-up, and, like in Emacs, construct special editing +> modes for editing such mark-up. This may apply in +> particular to things like customized ways of folding, +> direct execution of an Axiom example from the +> documentation, etc. +> +> > 0) The ability to recognize and format a code chunk. +> > 1) The ability to recognize the <>=, +> > concatenation, and <> features of the code +> > chunks. +> +> ... +> However, as I pointed out before, it might be better +> to directly use the TeXmacs format with additional +> tags and write the operations like tangle and weave +> in Scheme. +> +> ... as I said before, there is no reason to distinguish +> between tangle and weave and no reason to limit oneself +> to two operations. +> +> > 4) Bill has suggested that the folding mechanism +> > know about the code chunks and be able to fold and +> > unfold them. Perhaps the way to make the "untangle" +> > work would be to ignore the separate buffer idea +> > above and just use folding. I have no opinion about +> > either path yet. +> +> In a dynamic editor like TeXmacs, it should be noticed +> that folding/unfolding becomes in fact a quite subtle +> operation. In fact, one has to think about the kind of +> semantics that one requires. +> +> For instance, do you see folding as an operations +> which makes a change in the text, or rather like +> an operation which modifies the view of a text? +> The first interpretation is easiest to implement. +> In the second case, one has to define the notion +> of a "view" (and in particular: what information +> determines a view?). Also, you would have to +> think about how to undo changes. +> + +I really like the idea that the code appears "folded" +into the document, but still part of it. When the folds +are collapsed, the result is just documentation. But +when the folds are expanded, they are visible and +editable just like any other part of the document. So +in that sense I am only talking about a "view" of +the document (with one, several, or all folds collapsed). + +I would definitely say that folding should not be +an operation that changes the text, however we it +might be desirable if it (optionally?) affected how +the documented was printed as well as displayed. + +This sort of folding is now a common feature of +math packages like Maple and Mathematica. It helps +a lot to be able to read a document in a "top down" +fashion. In this sense the programming code is at +the "bottom" of the document fold structure. + +> Another difficulty has to do with TeXmacs' ability +> to let the user define his/her own macros. What +> should be the semantics +> of a macro which is built upon a "fold" tag? +> +> > 5) There are other ideas, not yet exposed, that +> > it would be nice to have supported. I guess I +> > need to talk more about the pamphlet idea in depth. +> +> Well, it would be nice to make up a list of all tags +> (with options and everything) which might be useful +> for pamphlet files. You might also want to take a +> look at some (still very rudimentary) ideas in the +> tmdoc format. +> + +I think that Anthony Coates (see links above) has +already done quite an excellent job of defining a +simple set of tags and attributes. These could +probably be used almost directly as a model for +TeXmacs. + +> At the moment, I mainly see the "chunk" tag as +> a variant of our "specific" tag, which is used in +> order to export content in a specific way to specific +> formats. We basically have to re-specify the semantics +> of such a tag in a very general setting. +> +> > First, you compose a set of Pamphlet files "across +> > the system" so that you could document, say, all of +> > the matrix facilities currently available. +> > +> > Second, you compose a set of Pamphlet files "thru +> > the system" so that you could document, say, the +> > integration mechanism from the top level function +> > all the way to the implementation details. +> +> My way of viewing this is the use of one file for +> each atomic functionality of the system. Each such +> file should come with meta-information like the bigger +> classes to which it belongs (linear algebra, topology, +> etc.). Each file may also contain information about +> other relevant related files or how to traverse files +> in a sensible order (cf. tmdoc style). One may then +> implement special functions into TeXmacs for extracting +> the information one needs. +> +> > Thus you can insert and extract Booklets with Axiom +> > making it easier to share knowledge. +> > +> ... +> > Huge dream, I realize, but except for the dishes, +> > I see no technical reason why it can't be done. +> > +> > This implies, of course, that Pamphlets can be +> > decomposed into a finer level of detail which is +> > still under development. +> +> Well, it all boils down to inventing suitable mark-up +> tags which reflect the complexity of the problem. So +> please give this matter a thought and come up with +> some more precise proposals. After that, we will have +> a discussion and see how to implement all this in +> TeXmacs. +> +> > Currently noweb needs to expand the chunk definition +> > syntax to handle some more general scheme such as a +> > URL. We need to be able to extract code chunks from +> > other pamphlets so that you can have the following +> > situation: +> > +> > pamphlet A: (the definition document) +> > ... +> > <>= +> > ... +> > +> > pamphlet B: (the using document) +> > ... +> > <> +> > ... +> > +> > It would be useful if this could happen for text +> > blocks also so that generally useful descriptions +> > could be inserted into multiple pamphlets. Since +> > the text blocks currently have no label this becomes +> > problematic. We need to develop text labels so we +> > can follow a uniform scheme. Multiple text blocks +> > containing essentially the same information already +> > exist in the system. This needs to be fixed. +> > +> ... +> As I see it now, you have the following ingredients +> for chunk tags: +> +> 1) A "format" which determines the program which +> should be used in order to do extractions. More +> generally, it reflects the purpose of the enclosed +> content (documentation, code, example, etc.). +> +> 2) An "identifier" for specifying how several chunks +> should be grouped together. In fact, it might be +> nice to see this independently from the chunk tags, +> but rather as a variant of labels and references. +> In other words, logical grouping of different parts +> of content may be nice in other circumstances too. +> +> So maybe we should see the chunk tag as the +> combination of two more basic tags: one for +> specifying the purpose, functionality or class of +> a given region of text, and one for grouping +> scattered pieces of information. +> + +I think you (Joris) may be surprised how close +your ideas are to Anthony's on this! + +> > RE: TEXMACS CHANGES +> > +> > Currently TeXmacs could take the following +> > steps, probably as a joint effort, to support +> > Axiom: +> > +> > 1) Recognize noweb format +> +> And we should decide whether we want to keep on +> working with this format, or whether we want to +> switch to a format for which it will be easier +> to add new features. +> +> > 2) Integrate commands to notangle and noweave. +> +> This should be straightforward to write in Scheme +> once that one has the appropriate tags. +> +> > 3) Possibly either support +> > a) folding out code +> +> Please think more precisely about the semantics +> that you would like to have. +> +> > b) notangle, noweave to "dependent" buffers +> +> Cf. improving the mark-up for inclusions like in +> the tmdoc style. +> +> ... +> I also remind you that TeXmacs does not have a +> one-to-one mapping with TeX/LaTeX. In other words, +> you can not longer use TeX/LaTeX as a reliable +> format for explanatory text in this scheme. If you +> want to edit the original document using TeXmacs, +> it is better to either use TeXmacs as the document +> format for your pamphlet files, or at least to +> replace chunks of LaTeX by chunks of TeXmacs. +> + +Regards, +Bill Page. + + + + +From TeXmacs@math.u-psud.fr Sun Nov 24 14:22:32 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18G2Kt-0001gK-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 14:22:31 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18G2Ks-0001g2-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 14:22:31 -0500 +Received: from mathups.math.u-psud.fr ([129.175.52.4] helo=matups.math.u-psud.fr) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18G2Kr-0001fr-00; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 14:22:29 -0500 +Received: from anh.math.u-psud.fr (anh.math.u-psud.fr [129.175.50.156]) + by matups.math.u-psud.fr (8.11.6/jtpda-5.3.3) with ESMTP id gAOJMQj22069 + ; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 20:22:26 +0100 (MET) +Received: from anh (anh [129.175.50.156]) + by anh.math.u-psud.fr (Postfix) with SMTP + id 31D15B2C8; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 20:22:25 +0100 (MET) +Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 20:22:24 +0100 (MET) +From: Joris van der Hoeven +X-Sender: texmacs@anh +To: Bill Page +Cc: "'Joris van der Hoeven'" , texmacs-dev@gnu.org, + axiom-developer@nongnu.org, "'Norman Ramsey'" , + "'Barry Trager'" , + "'Manuel Bronstein'" , + "'William Sit'" , xml-litprog-l@yahoogroups.com, + abcoates@TheOffice.net +In-Reply-To: <000201c293eb$c08aba70$6601a8c0@Asus> +Message-ID: +MIME-Version: 1.0 +Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII +Subject: [Axiom-developer] RE: noweb, pamphlets, and TeXmacs +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +> I think that Anthony Coates (see links above) has +> already done quite an excellent job of defining a +> simple set of tags and attributes. These could +> probably be used almost directly as a model for +> TeXmacs. + +Thanks for the pointers. Unfortunately, I could not find a detailed +summary of the relevant *tags* being used. I really think that +two or three well-chosen tags should cover everything that +we want to do (w.r.t. tangle and weave; folding and such is yet +another story). This is what we should discuss in my opinion. + + + + +From bill.page1@sympatico.ca Sun Nov 24 15:00:34 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18G2vh-0000wn-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 15:00:33 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18G2vf-0000wP-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 15:00:33 -0500 +Received: from tomts7.bellnexxia.net ([209.226.175.40] helo=tomts7-srv.bellnexxia.net) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18G2vf-0000wG-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 15:00:31 -0500 +Received: from Asus ([216.209.110.97]) by tomts7-srv.bellnexxia.net + (InterMail vM.5.01.04.19 201-253-122-122-119-20020516) with ESMTP + id <20021124200028.YBXX3608.tomts7-srv.bellnexxia.net@Asus>; + Sun, 24 Nov 2002 15:00:28 -0500 +From: "Bill Page" +To: "'Joris van der Hoeven'" +Cc: , + , + "'Norman Ramsey'" , + "'Barry Trager'" , + "'Manuel Bronstein'" , + "'William Sit'" , + , + +Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 15:00:24 -0500 +Message-ID: <000301c293f4$22350ac0$6601a8c0@Asus> +MIME-Version: 1.0 +Content-Type: text/plain; + charset="US-ASCII" +Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit +X-Priority: 3 (Normal) +X-MSMail-Priority: Normal +X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4024 +X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 +In-reply-to: +Importance: Normal +Subject: [Axiom-developer] RE: noweb, pamphlets, and TeXmacs +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +On Sunday, November 24, 2002 2:22 PM Joris +van der Hoeven TeXmacs@math.u-psud.fr wrote: +> +> [Bill Page] +> > I think that Anthony Coates (see links above) has +> > already done quite an excellent job of defining a +> > simple set of tags and attributes. These could +> > probably be used almost directly as a model for +> > TeXmacs. +> +> Thanks for the pointers. Unfortunately, I could not +> find a detailed summary of the relevant *tags* being +> used. +> + +Check out the quick sketch at + + http://www.vivtek.com/lpml/language.html + +and also the more formal definitions at + + http://xmlp.sourceforge.net/2002/extreme/index.html#fragment-dtd + +> I really think that two or three well-chosen tags +> should cover everything that we want to do (w.r.t. +> tangle and weave; folding and such is yet another +> story). This is what we should discuss in my opinion. + +I agree completely with your point of view. It is +essential to find some way to keep it simple the +way Norman managed to do with WEB. I think the +trouble with powerful (i.e. very flexible and +expressive) languages like XML is that there is an +urge to become less "humble" (in the sense of Edsger +Dykstra). + +@unpublished{EWD:EWD340, + author = "Edsger W. Dijkstra", + title = "The humble programmer", + year = "1972", + note = "Turing Award lecture; published as {\cite EWD:EWD340pub}", + url = "http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/ewd03xx/EWD340.PDF", + fileSize = 473 KB + } + +See also + + http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/ + +I hope that his work will continue to inspire +et another generation of programmers. + + http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/obituary.html + +Regards, +Bill Page. + + + + +From abcoates@TheOffice.net Sun Nov 24 16:30:26 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18G4Kg-0008Uj-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 16:30:26 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18G4Kd-0008Px-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 16:30:25 -0500 +Received: from relay3.bt.net ([194.72.6.50]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18G4Ka-0008OB-00; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 16:30:20 -0500 +Received: from host217-46-175-70.in-addr.btopenworld.com ([217.46.175.70]) + by relay3.bt.net with smtp (Exim 3.22 #1) + id 18G4KJ-0001A4-00; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 21:30:03 +0000 +Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 21:27:57 GMT +To: xml-litprog-l@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Page" , "'Joris van der Hoeven'" +Cc: , , "'Norman Ramsey'" , "'Barry Trager'" , "'Manuel Bronstein'" , "'William Sit'" +From: "Anthony B. Coates" +Reply-To: "Anthony B. Coates" +In-Reply-To: <000301c293f4$22350ac0$6601a8c0@Asus> +References: <000301c293f4$22350ac0$6601a8c0@Asus> +MIME-Version: 1.0 +X-Mailer: The Polarbar Mailer; version=1.23; build=1422 +Message-Id: +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: noweb, pamphlets, and TeXmacs +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +** Reply to message from "Bill Page" on Sun, 24 Nov +2002 15:00:24 -0500 + +A couple of things. TeXmacs looks nice. I wish I had as nice a front end for +xmLP. I've often felt that the lack of nice front-ends has hurt the take-up of +LitProg (& Emacs does not count as a nice front-end, not for the 95% majority). +An ideal LitProg editor would be WYSIWYG, so that what you see when editing is +equivalent to what you would get with a traditional LitProg tool after +"weaving" the documentation. + +Note that xmLP takes most of its ideas on literate programming from FunnelWeb +(http://www.ross.net/funnelweb/) which supports TeX, LaTeX, and HTML as +underlying document formats, as well as providing its own markup for simple +documents. So, you could copy ideas from FunnelWeb to use in TeXmacs, if you +wanted. + +> I agree completely with your point of view. It is +> essential to find some way to keep it simple the +> way Norman managed to do with WEB. I think the +> trouble with powerful (i.e. very flexible and +> expressive) languages like XML is that there is an +> urge to become less "humble" (in the sense of Edsger +> Dykstra). + +XML markups for documents, e.g. DocBook, are no more complicated than LaTeX. +However, what one hopes to get from XML is composability & reusability. Hence +xmLP defines a minimal set of tags, and a combination of DocBook + MathML + +xmLP would provide much the same functionality as I used when using FunnelWeb +for my physics studies, if had a suitable way to produce printed output (and +that would probably require PassiveTeX, so I still wouldn't be able to escape +TeX as an underlying technology). + + Cheers, + Tony. +==== +Anthony B. Coates, Information & Software Architect +mailto:abcoates@TheOffice.net +MDDL Editor (Market Data Definition Language) +http://www.mddl.org/ + + + +From tmi0m0@sp2.power.uni-essen.de Mon Nov 25 09:02:03 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18GJl7-0000ke-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 08:58:45 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18GJl0-0000h6-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 08:58:41 -0500 +Received: from mailout1.uni-essen.de ([132.252.184.12]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18GJkv-0000a2-00; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 08:58:33 -0500 +Received: from sp2 ([132.252.180.66] helo=sp2.power.uni-essen.de) + by mailout1.uni-essen.de with esmtp (Exim 4.05-VA-mm1) + id 18GJkn-000IhG-0j; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 14:58:25 +0100 +Received: from tmi0m0 by sp2.power.uni-essen.de with local (Exim 4.05) + id 18GJkh-000QYg-09; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 14:58:19 +0100 +Message-ID: <20021125145817.61677@spi.power.uni-essen.de> +Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 14:58:17 +0100 +From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Johannes_H=FCsing?= +To: xml-litprog-l@yahoogroups.com, Bill Page , + 'Joris van der Hoeven' +Cc: texmacs-dev@gnu.org, axiom-developer@nongnu.org, + 'Norman Ramsey' , + 'Barry Trager' , + 'Manuel Bronstein' , + 'William Sit' +Reply-To: johannes.huesing@uni-essen.de +Mail-Followup-To: xml-litprog-l@yahoogroups.com, + Bill Page , + 'Joris van der Hoeven' , + texmacs-dev@gnu.org, axiom-developer@nongnu.org, + 'Norman Ramsey' , + 'Barry Trager' , + 'Manuel Bronstein' , + 'William Sit' +References: <000301c293f4$22350ac0$6601a8c0@Asus> +Mime-Version: 1.0 +Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii +X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89if +In-Reply-To: ; from Anthony B. Coates on Sun, Nov 24, 2002 at 09:27:57PM +0000 +X-Address-Fon: (d) +49-201-723-4134 +X-Address-Fax: (d) +49-201-723-5933 +Organization: Institut fuer Medizinische Informatik, Biometrie und Epidemiologie, Medizinische Einrichtungen der Universitaet-GH Essen +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: [xml-litprog-l] Re: noweb, pamphlets, and TeXmacs +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +On Sun 2002-11-24 (21:27), Anthony B. Coates wrote: +> ** Reply to message from "Bill Page" on Sun, 24 Nov +> 2002 15:00:24 -0500 +> +> A couple of things. TeXmacs looks nice. I wish I had as nice a front end for +> xmLP. I've often felt that the lack of nice front-ends has hurt the take-up of +> LitProg (& Emacs does not count as a nice front-end, not for the 95% majority). +> An ideal LitProg editor would be WYSIWYG, so that what you see when editing is +> equivalent to what you would get with a traditional LitProg tool after +> "weaving" the documentation. + +I don't know if I still need to draw your attention to LEO +(http://sourceforge.net/projects/leo). The DTD of Leo output files is +naturally not 1:1 with xmLP, but things like lp:usage attributes can +be generated automatically. + +Of course, everyone has their own idea of what LP has to look like, +but after using Leo for a couple of weeks my impression is that of a +very flexible tool that can be geared towards many structures, including +at least an important subset of the xmLP grammar. + +Greetings + + +Johannes +> + + + +From bill.page1@sympatico.ca Mon Nov 25 13:16:24 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18GNmS-0001yH-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 13:16:24 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18GNmN-0001xU-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 13:16:22 -0500 +Received: from tomts15.bellnexxia.net ([209.226.175.3] helo=tomts15-srv.bellnexxia.net) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18GNmM-0001xH-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Mon, 25 Nov 2002 13:16:18 -0500 +Received: from Asus ([209.226.189.13]) by tomts15-srv.bellnexxia.net + (InterMail vM.5.01.04.19 201-253-122-122-119-20020516) with ESMTP + id <20021125181613.IABJ21453.tomts15-srv.bellnexxia.net@Asus>; + Mon, 25 Nov 2002 13:16:13 -0500 +From: "Bill Page" +To: +Cc: , + , + "'Norman Ramsey'" , + "'Barry Trager'" , + "'Manuel Bronstein'" , + "'William Sit'" , + +Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 13:16:07 -0500 +Message-ID: <000a01c294ae$bcda2af0$6601a8c0@Asus> +MIME-Version: 1.0 +Content-Type: text/plain; + charset="iso-8859-1" +Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable +X-Priority: 3 (Normal) +X-MSMail-Priority: Normal +X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4024 +X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 +In-reply-to: <20021125145817.61677@spi.power.uni-essen.de> +Importance: Normal +Subject: [Axiom-developer] RE: [xml-litprog-l] Re: noweb, pamphlets, and TeXmacs +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Hello all, + +Well, I guess I can retire back to life on the farm +with a clear conscience - seems like it's all been +done! + +Seriously, I had no idea that the "state of the art" +had reached this level. I feel like I have just +discovered gold in a most un-expected place - in the +"waste land" called by it's inhabitants "OpenSource". +Waste land, indeed! Not. I guess I have been toiling in +the realm of paid consulting work for too long. Having +just read Dijkstra's "Humble Programmer" article again +after what seems like a whole generation has passed, +I am in a philosophical mood. + +So it seems to me that open source (abd GNU etc. etc.) +is what happened *after* the software crisis that +Dijkstra talked about. When the original situation of +expensive hardware plus a little software reversed +dramatically, and the ratio of the cost (and effort) +of software development to the cost of the hardware +went "through the roof", it seems that a large part +of the programming profession went underground. Not +that one should think that the software crisis is over, +far from it, but some amazing and revolutionary ideas +do seem to be re-surfacing... + +I have just finished looking at TeXmacs, Leo, Python +and xmLP + + http://www.texmacs.org/ + http://personalpages.tds.net/~edream/front.html + http://www.python.org/ + http://xmlp.sourceforge.net/ + +and frankly I am amazed. But of course food tastes +wonderful to someone who is starving. These are exactly +the kind of tools that I was hoping would be available +for a new integrated development/authoring system for +the open source version of Axiom and for mathematical +programming in general. Sure a greated degree of +integration would be nice. But these are open source +tools so (in principle) all that is needed is effort. +Right? + +I am especially encouraged by the use of XML and XSLT. +Standards are what made the Web and for that matter the +Internet itself, possible. Yes, standards *are* made to +be broken, but the fantastic (and largely unexpected) +success of the Internet should have taught us something: +It is possible to overcome the Babel (cf. Neal Stephenson, +"Snow Crash"). Mathematical software in the form of Maple, +Mathematica, Maxima, MuPad, Reduce, Axiom/Aldor (and many +many more) is in such a state of Babel - too many languages +and too many conflicting concepts. Of course variety is +necessary in the intellectual ecosystem, but too much +is almost as bad as too little. + +I am very much in favor of attempting to apply accepted +standards (where they exist) in projects such as Axiom. +In that regard, let me ask a question: + +LaTex is a defacto standard notation for mathematical +markup but MATH/ML is rapidly evolving as a more +"modern" alternative. Should one attempt to adopt such +a radially different (and some say exceedingly verbose) +approach as MATH/ML in the design of a new user +interface for Axiom? How advanced are the graphical +rendering packages? (More open source?) Could MATH/ML +be integrated with a tool like Leo? The alternative +of a LaTex-like interface is already available in +TeXmacs. But the use of XML as a standard visible +"internal" representation format strikes me as very +very desirable. And of course by design MATH/ML is +much more compatible with XML than is LaTex encoding. + +How to choose? + +Regards, +Bill Page. + +http://savannah.nongnu.org/projects/axiom + + +> -----Original Message----- +> From: Johannes H=FCsing [mailto:tmi0m0@spi.power.uni-essen.de]=20 +> Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 8:58 AM +> To: xml-litprog-l@yahoogroups.com; Bill Page; 'Joris van der Hoeven' +> Cc: texmacs-dev@gnu.org; axiom-developer@nongnu.org; 'Norman=20 +> Ramsey'; 'Barry Trager'; 'Manuel Bronstein'; 'William Sit' +> Subject: Re: [xml-litprog-l] Re: noweb, pamphlets, and TeXmacs +>=20 +>=20 +> On Sun 2002-11-24 (21:27), Anthony B. Coates wrote: +> > ** Reply to message from "Bill Page"=20 +> on Sun,=20 +> > 24 Nov 2002 15:00:24 -0500 +> >=20 +> > A couple of things. TeXmacs looks nice. I wish I had as=20 +> nice a front=20 +> > end for xmLP. I've often felt that the lack of nice front-ends has=20 +> > hurt the take-up of LitProg (& Emacs does not count as a nice=20 +> > front-end, not for the 95% majority). An ideal LitProg=20 +> editor would be=20 +> > WYSIWYG, so that what you see when editing is equivalent to=20 +> what you=20 +> > would get with a traditional LitProg tool after "weaving" the=20 +> > documentation. +>=20 +> I don't know if I still need to draw your attention to LEO=20 +> (http://sourceforge.net/projects/leo). The DTD of Leo output=20 +> files is naturally not 1:1 with xmLP, but things like=20 +> lp:usage attributes can be generated automatically. +>=20 +> Of course, everyone has their own idea of what LP has to look=20 +> like, but after using Leo for a couple of weeks my impression=20 +> is that of a=20 +> very flexible tool that can be geared towards many=20 +> structures, including at least an important subset of the=20 +> xmLP grammar. +>=20 +> Greetings +>=20 +>=20 +> Johannes +> >=20 +>=20 + + + + +From miked@nag.co.uk Tue Nov 26 04:58:07 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18GcTm-0001qF-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 04:58:06 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18GcTi-0001ng-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 04:58:05 -0500 +Received: from mail22.messagelabs.com ([193.109.255.115]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18GcTh-0001jr-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 04:58:01 -0500 +X-VirusChecked: Checked +X-Env-Sender: miked@nag.co.uk +X-Msg-Ref: server-3.tower-22.messagelabs.com!1038304677!4974 +Received: (qmail 4449 invoked from network); 26 Nov 2002 09:57:57 -0000 +Received: from smtp-2.star.net.uk (212.125.75.71) + by server-3.tower-22.messagelabs.com with SMTP; 26 Nov 2002 09:57:57 -0000 +Received: (qmail 29866 invoked from network); 26 Nov 2002 09:57:56 -0000 +Received: from nagmx1.nag.co.uk (HELO nag.co.uk) (62.231.145.242) + by smtp-2.star.net.uk with SMTP; 26 Nov 2002 09:57:56 -0000 +Received: from brackley.nag.co.uk (brackley.nag.co.uk [192.156.217.21]) + by nag.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA17336; + Tue, 26 Nov 2002 09:57:48 GMT +Received: from nag.co.uk (IDENT:root@trowbridge.nag.co.uk [192.156.217.69]) + by brackley.nag.co.uk (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id gAQ9w5J80199; + Tue, 26 Nov 2002 09:58:05 GMT + (envelope-from miked@nag.co.uk) +Received: (from miked@localhost) + by nag.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA10026; + Tue, 26 Nov 2002 09:56:59 GMT +Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 09:56:59 +0000 +From: Mike Dewar +To: Bill Page +Cc: xml-litprog-l@yahoogroups.com, texmacs-dev@gnu.org, + axiom-developer@nongnu.org, "'Norman Ramsey'" , + "'Barry Trager'" , + "'Manuel Bronstein'" , + "'William Sit'" , cyganski@ece.WPI.EDU, + Mike Dewar +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] RE: [xml-litprog-l] Re: noweb, pamphlets, and TeXmacs +Message-ID: <20021126095659.B10007@nag.co.uk> +References: <20021125145817.61677@spi.power.uni-essen.de> <000a01c294ae$bcda2af0$6601a8c0@Asus> +Mime-Version: 1.0 +Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii +X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i +In-Reply-To: <000a01c294ae$bcda2af0$6601a8c0@Asus>; from bill.page1@sympatico.ca on Mon, Nov 25, 2002 at 01:16:07PM -0500 +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +On Mon, Nov 25, 2002 at 01:16:07PM -0500, Bill Page wrote: + +> LaTex is a defacto standard notation for mathematical +> markup but MATH/ML is rapidly evolving as a more +> "modern" alternative. Should one attempt to adopt such +> a radially different (and some say exceedingly verbose) +> approach as MATH/ML in the design of a new user +> interface for Axiom? How advanced are the graphical +> rendering packages? (More open source?) Could MATH/ML +> be integrated with a tool like Leo? The alternative +> of a LaTex-like interface is already available in +> TeXmacs. But the use of XML as a standard visible +> "internal" representation format strikes me as very +> very desirable. And of course by design MATH/ML is +> much more compatible with XML than is LaTex encoding. + +LaTeX is fine as a rendering language but it does not have a regular +syntax and is very hard to manipulate. I've just spent several months +working with XML documents with embedded fragments of LaTeX for +mathematics and the upshot is that we're removing the LaTeX and +replacing it with MathML. Also, once you translate to LaTeX, it is +very hard to have any degree of interactivity such as cut-and-paste +since the structure of the rendered version may have little or no +relationship to the underlying data structures. With MathML/XML you can +annotate the presentation form with the content form (and vice-versa) or +use xref to link related parts of different structures. In addition you +have access to tools based on XSLT etc. There is no reason why you +cannot use XSLT to render MathML - and indeed there is a SourceForge +project to do just that (http://sourceforge.net/projects/xsltml). + +As far as rendering goes, Mozilla based its MathML rendering on TeX and +is really quite good. The same code also found its way into Netscape 7. +There are also various plugins available for IE, you can find my +colleague David Carlisle's "universal stylesheet" at the MathML home +page (http://www.w3c.org/Math) which allows you to produce documents +which are portable across several browsers. By the way David is bot +only a member of the MathMl committee but also one of the authors of +LaTeX2e so we aren't biased! + +Having said all that you need to be careful when using MathML for +content markup - the defined symbols are fairly trivial (US high-school +maths) and you need to use one of the extension mechanisms such as +csymbol to extend the namespace for more interesting things. You can +use OpenMath (http://monet.nag.co.uk/openmath) for this, i.e. make the +definitionURL attribute point to an appropriate OpenMath Content +Dictionary, or do what Maple and Mathematica do and use system-specific +URIs. + +Regards, Mike. + +_____________________________________________________________________ +This message has been checked for all known viruses by Star Internet +delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Scanning Service. For further +information visit http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp or alternatively call +Star Internet for details on the Virus Scanning Service. + + + +From TeXmacs@math.u-psud.fr Tue Nov 26 06:01:49 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18GdTR-0003wb-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 06:01:49 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18GdTP-0003wQ-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 06:01:48 -0500 +Received: from matups.math.u-psud.fr ([129.175.50.4]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18GdTP-0003wM-00; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 06:01:47 -0500 +Received: from anh.math.u-psud.fr (anh.math.u-psud.fr [129.175.50.156]) + by matups.math.u-psud.fr (8.11.6/jtpda-5.3.3) with ESMTP id gAQB1fj08011 + ; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 12:01:41 +0100 (MET) +Received: from anh (anh [129.175.50.156]) + by anh.math.u-psud.fr (Postfix) with SMTP + id E046FB2C8; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 12:01:40 +0100 (MET) +Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 12:01:40 +0100 (MET) +From: Joris van der Hoeven +X-Sender: texmacs@anh +To: texmacs-dev@gnu.org +Cc: Bill Page , xml-litprog-l@yahoogroups.com, + axiom-developer@nongnu.org, "'Norman Ramsey'" , + "'Barry Trager'" , + "'Manuel Bronstein'" , + "'William Sit'" , cyganski@ece.WPI.EDU, + Mike Dewar +Subject: Re: [Texmacs-dev] Re: [Axiom-developer] RE: [xml-litprog-l] Re: noweb, pamphlets, and TeXmacs +In-Reply-To: <20021126095659.B10007@nag.co.uk> +Message-ID: +MIME-Version: 1.0 +Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +> LaTeX is fine as a rendering language but it does not have a regular +> syntax and is very hard to manipulate. I've just spent several months +> working with XML documents with embedded fragments of LaTeX for +> mathematics and the upshot is that we're removing the LaTeX and +> replacing it with MathML. + +TeXmacs has reasonably good import and export filters for LaTeX, +and filters for MathML should be available soon. + +> As far as rendering goes, Mozilla based its MathML rendering on TeX and +> is really quite good. The same code also found its way into Netscape 7. + +But this allows you only to *render* mathematics, not *editing* it. + +> Having said all that you need to be careful when using MathML for +> content markup - the defined symbols are fairly trivial (US high-school +> maths) and you need to use one of the extension mechanisms such as +> csymbol to extend the namespace for more interesting things. You can +> use OpenMath (http://monet.nag.co.uk/openmath) for this, i.e. make the +> definitionURL attribute point to an appropriate OpenMath Content +> Dictionary, or do what Maple and Mathematica do and use system-specific +> URIs. + +I indeed think that the whole system MathML/Openmath is more complex +than necessary. Also, it has mainly been developed with rendering +in mind, not editing. I finally notice that Openmath does not seem +to work very well. + +What we can give you quite quickly with TeXmacs is + + 1) Adding markup for simple litterate programming of + the type that we discussed before. + + 2) Import and export filters for MathML. + +This would allow you to have an integrated frontend/help browser/editor +for Axiom which is reasonably compatible with the outside world. +We will not spend any time on Openmath, unless someone else wants +to do all the work. + + + + +From Michel.Lavaud@univ-orleans.fr Tue Nov 26 08:16:45 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18Gfa1-0001S5-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 08:16:45 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18GfZJ-0000mL-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 08:16:04 -0500 +Received: from mailhost.univ-orleans.fr ([194.167.30.130]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18GfZH-0000Xw-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 08:15:59 -0500 +Received: from gremi78 (gremi78.univ-orleans.fr [193.49.77.78]) + by mailhost.univ-orleans.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) with ESMTP id OAA27932 + ; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 14:15:50 +0100 +From: michel.lavaud@univ-orleans.fr +To: Mike Dewar +Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 14:20:09 +0100 +MIME-Version: 1.0 +Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 +Content-transfer-encoding: Quoted-printable +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] RE: [xml-litprog-l] Re: noweb, pamphlets, and TeXmacs +CC: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Message-ID: <3DE38319.25093.145E3ED@localhost> +Priority: normal +In-reply-to: <20021126095659.B10007@nag.co.uk> +References: <000a01c294ae$bcda2af0$6601a8c0@Asus>; from bill.page1@sympatico.ca on Mon, Nov 25, 2002 at 01:16:07PM -0500 +X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Hello Mike, + +> > LaTex is a defacto standard notation for mathematical +> > markup but MATH/ML is rapidly evolving as a more +> > "modern" alternative. Should one attempt to adopt such +> > a radially different (and some say exceedingly verbose) +> > approach as MATH/ML in the design of a new user +> > interface for Axiom? +> +> LaTeX is fine as a rendering language but it does not have a regular +> syntax and is very hard to manipulate. I've just spent several months +> working with XML documents with embedded fragments of LaTeX for +> mathematics and the upshot is that we're removing the LaTeX and +> replacing it with MathML. Also, once you translate to LaTeX, it is +> very hard to have any degree of interactivity such as cut-and-paste +> since the structure of the rendered version may have little or no +> relationship to the underlying data structures. With MathML/XML you can +> annotate the presentation form with the content form (and vice-versa) or +> use xref to link related parts of different structures. + +>From the point of view of software developers you are certainly right, but= + +from the point of view of users and Science, I think you are wrong : +TeX/LaTeX is a defacto standard notation for mathematics, as Bill Page +noted, and I think that we ought to start from this point, whatever the +difficulties, for many reasons, the main one being that software are for +users, not for developers, so the user's point of view ought to be +prominent (this is a true for commercial software because the aim is to +earn as much money as possible, but I think this ought to be also the case= + +for free software). I give a few reasons, why users might have an opinion +opposite to yours: + +1 - One would have tons of work in maths, physics, chemistry, etc. that +would go to the rubbish heap or would have to be translated, with the +inevitable errors inserted by any translator. Errors of one character in a= + +text can be corrected automatically by humans and software, but error of +one character in a formula in a scientific article cannot be corrected +(except by reconstructing the proof) and the consequences can be +disastrous. Let just recall that an error of one character in a computer +program led to the crash of a NASA planetary probe, cf: + +http://www.univ-orleans.fr/EXT/ASTEX/astex/doc/en/prof77/html/prse4.htm + +There are other examples of this type (crash of Ariane 5, sink of an oil +platform etc) and one can imagine easily others, for example the +consequences of an error in the chemical formula of a medicine, etc. + +Your argument based on your difficulties is quite valuable, but the +question "is a formula in language XXX rendered exactly, today and in the +long term ?" is much more important in my opinion - all the more in the +long term. No human can read a Mathml formula except very simple ones, it= + +is too much verbose. So one would be condemned to use software to read +such formulas. Could anybody certify that a MathML formula written with +today's version could be rendered exactly with a software in hundred years= + +as it is today? TeX formulas on the contrary can be read by humans +directly, and moreover TeX is frozen, so this stability and human- +readability makes it a completely reliable way to transmit math formulas +over very long periods. + +2 - Let just consider the denomination of plants, animals, anatomy : all +are in Latin, since Linne's work more than 200 years ago. This stability +in the denomination was a crucial ingredient for the progress of botany, +biology and life sciences, etc. because everybody - whether he is British,= + +Chinese, French or from any country - knows a given living being under a +unique name. Botanists can still read descriptions of plants that were +written 200 years ago. Of course, this approach is difficult, as botanists= + +have to learn Latin, but this is the condition for scientific exactness +and for having a common and stable language, understood by everybody over +a very long period. The "sagesse" of botanists, biologists etc. has been +to keep this (otherwise obsolete) language to allow their science to +progress and to remain rigorous, instead of unceasingly changing their +language, which would have restrained the progress and multiply the +possibility of confusions and errors. + +For the same reason, I think we ought to maintain the usage of TeX for +documents with mathematical formulas, as the usage of Latin is maintained +for description of plants, animals etc, despite all the considerations you= + +give (about your difficulties with TeX) which are, I agree, valuable, but +negligible as compared to the bad consequences of abandoning TeX in favour= + +of something else, and then 20 years laters abandoning this "something +else" for another "something else", etc., etc... + +If this point of view worries you too much, let us consider that there are= + +people who are working on Scientific OCR, that could reconstruct formulas +from scanned articles in scientific journals. This is a very difficult +job, but this would be very useful and is worth the study. And it is +certainly feasible, as any scientist does it daily with his mind. + +Well, instead of starting from scanned images to reconstruct formulas, let= + +us start from formulas in TeX, to produce MathML output today, and to +produce #!??&@ML output in 20 years (the new language which will have +superseded MathML at that time among learned computer scientists). This is= + +probably a difficult job, but certainly much less difficult than +Scientific OCR. And it is certainly feasible unambiguously also, as one +can read formulas printed with TeX without any ambiguity. +So, mathematicians, physicists and chemists in 100 years could still be +able to type their articles in TeX and read the articles that were written= + +in TeX this year. And efforts to build free archives of scientific +articles (which might be unimportant for developers but are of utmost +importance for many users) would not be ruined, too. + +3 - Another difference between user's and developer's approaches : +learning TeX is difficult for the user, but it is justified because it is +error-free and could stay for ever (if we are sufficiently wise to decide +it ?). Having to learn a few years later another language is unacceptable +for most users, I think, even though it might be more convenient for +developers. + + +Best wishes, + +Michel.Lavaud@univ-orleans.fr +http://www.univ-orleans.fr/EXT/ASTEX +ftp://ftp.univ-orleans.fr/pub/tex/PC/AsTeX +liste de discussion: astex@univ-orleans.fr +Abonnement =E0 la liste: envoyer un message de contenu +"sub astex Nom Prenom Etablissement" =E0 sympa@univ-orleans.fr + + + +From miked@nag.co.uk Tue Nov 26 08:47:11 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18Gg3T-0005Zb-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 08:47:11 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18Gg3P-0005V6-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 08:47:10 -0500 +Received: from mail22.messagelabs.com ([193.109.255.115]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18Gg3P-0005Tx-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 08:47:07 -0500 +X-VirusChecked: Checked +X-Env-Sender: miked@nag.co.uk +X-Msg-Ref: server-5.tower-22.messagelabs.com!1038318425!1169 +Received: (qmail 22300 invoked from network); 26 Nov 2002 13:47:05 -0000 +Received: from smtp-7.star.net.uk (212.125.75.76) + by server-5.tower-22.messagelabs.com with SMTP; 26 Nov 2002 13:47:05 -0000 +Received: (qmail 27867 invoked from network); 26 Nov 2002 13:46:59 -0000 +Received: from nagmx1.nag.co.uk (HELO nag.co.uk) (62.231.145.242) + by smtp-7.star.net.uk with SMTP; 26 Nov 2002 13:46:59 -0000 +Received: from brackley.nag.co.uk (brackley.nag.co.uk [192.156.217.21]) + by nag.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA20041; + Tue, 26 Nov 2002 13:46:41 GMT +Received: from nag.co.uk (IDENT:root@trowbridge.nag.co.uk [192.156.217.69]) + by brackley.nag.co.uk (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id gAQDleJ81032; + Tue, 26 Nov 2002 13:47:40 GMT + (envelope-from miked@nag.co.uk) +Received: (from miked@localhost) + by nag.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA10669; + Tue, 26 Nov 2002 13:46:33 GMT +Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 13:46:33 +0000 +From: Mike Dewar +To: michel.lavaud@univ-orleans.fr +Cc: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] RE: [xml-litprog-l] Re: noweb, pamphlets, and TeXmacs +Message-ID: <20021126134633.G10007@nag.co.uk> +References: <000a01c294ae$bcda2af0$6601a8c0@Asus>; <20021126095659.B10007@nag.co.uk> <3DE38319.25093.145E3ED@localhost> +Mime-Version: 1.0 +Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 +Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit +X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i +In-Reply-To: <3DE38319.25093.145E3ED@localhost>; from michel.lavaud@univ-orleans.fr on Tue, Nov 26, 2002 at 02:20:09PM +0100 +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Hi Michel, + +I'm not suggesting throwing LaTeX away, but it was never designed to be +used as an output language for software and in general using it that +way leads to problems. As a language that people write directly in a +text editor its fine, and speaking personally its still the only system +which I use to write documents if I have a choice, but increasingly few +people write documents that way these days. Like it or not we're moving +to a WYSIWYG world and the "back-end" representation of the mathematics +will be irrelevent. However that isn't really relevant to this +discussion - the original question was whether a front-end for OpenAxiom +should use LaTeX or MathML as a rendering format. Users won't care +because they'll never see it, in the same way that they never see +OutputForm in the shell interpreter. Now if you want an archive format +then thats a different matter but I don't think that writing a document +in LaTeX is any guarentee that it will be readable in 10 years let alone +100. Make a hard copy on vellum, thats my advice :-) + +Cheers, Mike. + +On Tue, Nov 26, 2002 at 02:20:09PM +0100, michel.lavaud@univ-orleans.fr wrote: +> Hello Mike, +> +> > > LaTex is a defacto standard notation for mathematical +> > > markup but MATH/ML is rapidly evolving as a more +> > > "modern" alternative. Should one attempt to adopt such +> > > a radially different (and some say exceedingly verbose) +> > > approach as MATH/ML in the design of a new user +> > > interface for Axiom? +> > +> > LaTeX is fine as a rendering language but it does not have a regular +> > syntax and is very hard to manipulate. I've just spent several months +> > working with XML documents with embedded fragments of LaTeX for +> > mathematics and the upshot is that we're removing the LaTeX and +> > replacing it with MathML. Also, once you translate to LaTeX, it is +> > very hard to have any degree of interactivity such as cut-and-paste +> > since the structure of the rendered version may have little or no +> > relationship to the underlying data structures. With MathML/XML you can +> > annotate the presentation form with the content form (and vice-versa) or +> > use xref to link related parts of different structures. +> +> >From the point of view of software developers you are certainly right, but +> from the point of view of users and Science, I think you are wrong : +> TeX/LaTeX is a defacto standard notation for mathematics, as Bill Page +> noted, and I think that we ought to start from this point, whatever the +> difficulties, for many reasons, the main one being that software are for +> users, not for developers, so the user's point of view ought to be +> prominent (this is a true for commercial software because the aim is to +> earn as much money as possible, but I think this ought to be also the case +> for free software). I give a few reasons, why users might have an opinion +> opposite to yours: +> +> 1 - One would have tons of work in maths, physics, chemistry, etc. that +> would go to the rubbish heap or would have to be translated, with the +> inevitable errors inserted by any translator. Errors of one character in a +> text can be corrected automatically by humans and software, but error of +> one character in a formula in a scientific article cannot be corrected +> (except by reconstructing the proof) and the consequences can be +> disastrous. Let just recall that an error of one character in a computer +> program led to the crash of a NASA planetary probe, cf: +> +> http://www.univ-orleans.fr/EXT/ASTEX/astex/doc/en/prof77/html/prse4.htm +> +> There are other examples of this type (crash of Ariane 5, sink of an oil +> platform etc) and one can imagine easily others, for example the +> consequences of an error in the chemical formula of a medicine, etc. +> +> Your argument based on your difficulties is quite valuable, but the +> question "is a formula in language XXX rendered exactly, today and in the +> long term ?" is much more important in my opinion - all the more in the +> long term. No human can read a Mathml formula except very simple ones, it +> is too much verbose. So one would be condemned to use software to read +> such formulas. Could anybody certify that a MathML formula written with +> today's version could be rendered exactly with a software in hundred years +> as it is today? TeX formulas on the contrary can be read by humans +> directly, and moreover TeX is frozen, so this stability and human- +> readability makes it a completely reliable way to transmit math formulas +> over very long periods. +> +> 2 - Let just consider the denomination of plants, animals, anatomy : all +> are in Latin, since Linne's work more than 200 years ago. This stability +> in the denomination was a crucial ingredient for the progress of botany, +> biology and life sciences, etc. because everybody - whether he is British, +> Chinese, French or from any country - knows a given living being under a +> unique name. Botanists can still read descriptions of plants that were +> written 200 years ago. Of course, this approach is difficult, as botanists +> have to learn Latin, but this is the condition for scientific exactness +> and for having a common and stable language, understood by everybody over +> a very long period. The "sagesse" of botanists, biologists etc. has been +> to keep this (otherwise obsolete) language to allow their science to +> progress and to remain rigorous, instead of unceasingly changing their +> language, which would have restrained the progress and multiply the +> possibility of confusions and errors. +> +> For the same reason, I think we ought to maintain the usage of TeX for +> documents with mathematical formulas, as the usage of Latin is maintained +> for description of plants, animals etc, despite all the considerations you +> give (about your difficulties with TeX) which are, I agree, valuable, but +> negligible as compared to the bad consequences of abandoning TeX in favour +> of something else, and then 20 years laters abandoning this "something +> else" for another "something else", etc., etc... +> +> If this point of view worries you too much, let us consider that there are +> people who are working on Scientific OCR, that could reconstruct formulas +> from scanned articles in scientific journals. This is a very difficult +> job, but this would be very useful and is worth the study. And it is +> certainly feasible, as any scientist does it daily with his mind. +> +> Well, instead of starting from scanned images to reconstruct formulas, let +> us start from formulas in TeX, to produce MathML output today, and to +> produce #!??&@ML output in 20 years (the new language which will have +> superseded MathML at that time among learned computer scientists). This is +> probably a difficult job, but certainly much less difficult than +> Scientific OCR. And it is certainly feasible unambiguously also, as one +> can read formulas printed with TeX without any ambiguity. +> So, mathematicians, physicists and chemists in 100 years could still be +> able to type their articles in TeX and read the articles that were written +> in TeX this year. And efforts to build free archives of scientific +> articles (which might be unimportant for developers but are of utmost +> importance for many users) would not be ruined, too. +> +> 3 - Another difference between user's and developer's approaches : +> learning TeX is difficult for the user, but it is justified because it is +> error-free and could stay for ever (if we are sufficiently wise to decide +> it ?). Having to learn a few years later another language is unacceptable +> for most users, I think, even though it might be more convenient for +> developers. +> +> +> Best wishes, +> +> Michel.Lavaud@univ-orleans.fr +> http://www.univ-orleans.fr/EXT/ASTEX +> ftp://ftp.univ-orleans.fr/pub/tex/PC/AsTeX +> liste de discussion: astex@univ-orleans.fr +> Abonnement à la liste: envoyer un message de contenu +> "sub astex Nom Prenom Etablissement" à sympa@univ-orleans.fr +> +> _____________________________________________________________________ +> This message has been checked for all known viruses by Star Internet +> delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Scanning Service. For further +> information visit http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp or alternatively call +> Star Internet for details on the Virus Scanning Service. + +_____________________________________________________________________ +This message has been checked for all known viruses by Star Internet +delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Scanning Service. For further +information visit http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp or alternatively call +Star Internet for details on the Virus Scanning Service. + + + +From fauser@spock.physik.uni-konstanz.de Tue Nov 26 09:24:30 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18GgdZ-0000GV-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 09:24:29 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18GgdU-0008MA-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 09:24:27 -0500 +Received: from spock.physik.uni-konstanz.de ([134.34.143.6]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18GgdT-0008E5-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 09:24:23 -0500 +Received: from clifford.physik.uni-konstanz.de (clifford [134.34.143.32]) + by spock.physik.uni-konstanz.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA08093 + for ; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 15:12:17 +0100 (MET) +Received: from clifford.physik.uni-konstanz.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) + by clifford.physik.uni-konstanz.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/SuSE Linux 0.6) with ESMTP id gAQEOVjM025899 + for ; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 15:24:31 +0100 +Received: from localhost (fauser@localhost) + by clifford.physik.uni-konstanz.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) with ESMTP id gAQEOUPF025896 + for ; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 15:24:30 +0100 +Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 15:24:30 +0100 (CET) +From: Bertfried Fauser +Reply-To: Bertfried.Fauser@uni-konstanz.de +To: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] RE: [xml-litprog-l] Re: noweb, pamphlets, and + TeXmacs +In-Reply-To: <20021126134633.G10007@nag.co.uk> +Message-ID: +MIME-Version: 1.0 +Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Hi + as a potential user I follow this discussion with geat interest. +E.g. I downloaded TeXmacs and tried as a first exercise if it can read my +(partially very tricky) LaTeX documents, it failed, even with the more +simpler ones. + + Hence it seems to be a problematic step to go from LaTeX to +TeXmacs. This is a pitty, since I have to maintain my LaTeX articles, and +I do really also appreciate a human readable file format (e.g. MathML is +not human readable for sure) + + To me its not so important if axiom does use LaTeX or not, if it +has e.g. an LaTeX output filter (one way) which should not be an problem. +Currently I do use maple as a filter for LaTeX documents. One can pass a +LaTeX document through maple, passing some arguments on textwidth etc, +which produces (soehow poor) LaTeX output (maple input is given in the +'environment' \begin{mapleinput} comands... \end{mapleinput}). Such a +feature would be fully satisfactory for me. An interactive worksheet +interface might be a very different story. E.g. I would like to see that +axiom can be used over the net from a remote machine, that computations +can be made available over the web etc. For such a purpose, XML and MathML +may be the first joice. + + I see that the WYSIWIG movement is going on, but that is also +coming with a diminished level of sophistication [not a rating, just an +observation]. If a person is really using software like axiom, she can +easily learn something like LaTeX within two weeks. The occassional user +may not the target you are seeking for with such aspecial purpose software +as axiom? One problem I have with maple --and scientific computing, +Germanys maple distributor, agreed during a phone call with this +oppinion-- is that maple goes for the gui and for the mass market +currently. During that effort, the mathematical abilities of maple have +even been _diminished_! (from maple V to 6,7,8 and hopefully 9 will come +back to be as good as V) I fear a little bit that this discussion, which +--please remember-- started with literate programming goes now into a +similar direction. + + By the way, I can LaTeX documents which are now more than 10 years +old still without considerable problems. I think that I will be able to +read ASCII files in ten years still -- otherwise I will write a small +editor myself :) Just advising to make hardcopies means to kill living +documents which evolve in time. My knowledge however still --hopefully-- +evolves, so my documents do. LaTeX is ideally suited for that. [For the +reasons of non readability by humans I do > /dev/null all M$.doc files :)] + + So, my personal preference would go for an axiom interface which +is web-standard and easy to export. I could even imagine an axiom _deamon_ +runing on some TCP/IP port which can be accessed by a sort of +mozilla/MathML with some additonal active input elements, (like a web +form). Maple goes for MapleNet now, but that's buzz onyl :( + +best +BF. + +% Bertfried Fauser Fachbereich Physik Fach M 678 +% Universit"at Konstanz 78457 Konstanz Germany +% Phone : +49 7531 883786 FAX : +49 7531 88-4864 or 4266 +% E-mail: Bertfried.Fauser@uni-konstanz.de +% Web : http://clifford.physik.uni-konstanz.de/~fauser + + + + +From bill.page1@sympatico.ca Tue Nov 26 11:58:51 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18Gj2w-0006a8-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 11:58:50 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18Gj2u-0006ZT-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 11:58:49 -0500 +Received: from tomts7.bellnexxia.net ([209.226.175.40] helo=tomts7-srv.bellnexxia.net) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18Gj1j-0006DH-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 11:57:35 -0500 +Received: from Asus ([209.226.189.107]) by tomts7-srv.bellnexxia.net + (InterMail vM.5.01.04.19 201-253-122-122-119-20020516) with ESMTP + id <20021126165728.WJAI3608.tomts7-srv.bellnexxia.net@Asus> + for ; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 11:57:28 -0500 +From: "Bill Page" +To: +Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 11:57:26 -0500 +Message-ID: <000b01c2956c$e6b6a010$6501a8c0@Asus> +MIME-Version: 1.0 +Content-Type: text/plain; + charset="us-ascii" +Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit +X-Priority: 3 (Normal) +X-MSMail-Priority: Normal +X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4024 +In-Reply-To: +X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 +Importance: Normal +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Maple XML and MATH/ML +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Hi, + +I am thinking about the proposed standards for representation of +mathematical documents these days in the context of the new +open source Axiom project + + http://savannah.nongnu.org/projects/axiom + +so I decided to take a closer look at the Maple release 8 +implementation of export to XML and to HTML with MATH/ML. Here +are some links to examples of a very simple Maple worksheet +with the results of these exports + + http://wspage.tripod.com/maple/xml-test1.mws + http://wspage.tripod.com/maple/xml-test1.html + http://wspage.tripod.com/maple/xml-test1.xml + +Here is what the worksheet contains rendered in standard +ASCII input and output cut-and-paste directly from Maple. + +-------- + +> eq1:=y=alpha*x^n+beta; + + n + eq1 := y = alpha x + beta + +> eq2:=op(solve({eq1},x)); + + y - beta + ln(--------) + alpha + eq2 := x = exp(------------) + n + +> A:=matrix(2,2,(i,j)->a[i,j]); + + [a[1, 1] a[1, 2]] + A := [ ] + [a[2, 1] a[2, 2]] + +> + +----------- + +If you click the 'xml-test1.html' link above, the first +thing you will notice is the download of a java class to render +the strange looking encoded math output format apparently called +XPPMATH, at least that is the tag that is used in both Maple's +internal mws format and in the exported XML. + +If you are using an XML enabled browser (e.g. I am using +IE 6.0 on Windows XP at the time I write this), you will see +a pretty printed version of the XML coding. Note: I have made +one small change from the raw Maple output. Maple strings +the XML out in one long unformatted line. I have inserted +some minimal whitespace in the form of new lines at reasonable +places to allow the XML file to be displayed in a readable +manner in ASCII mode. + +Observation 1: On vanilla IE 6.0 with no special add-ins the +MATH/ML output does not render properly. There is a missing +closing parenthesis in eq2. Note also that the matrix is +displayed as a graphic and not MATH/ML. Why? + +First question: Does anyone know what this encoded format is? +Is there a non-proprietary rendering engine available? + +Second question: Why does Maple use this encoded format in it's +XML output? Why doesn't Maple use the MATH/ML mark-up in the +XML file? Perhaps both MATH/ML and XPPMATH should be present? + +Observation 2: Although Maple can export to XML and it looks +pretty much complete compared to the native mws format, it +apparently cannot import a worksheet in the format. When I +try to open an XML file (Maple allows an input format of +"Maple worksheet as XML"), all I can get to work is the "text" +format where the XML appears in a Maple text section. Is this +a bug? Am I doing something wrong? + +It seems quite likely to me that WMI will be extending +this rudimentary functionality in the next release. + +Your comments would be most appreciated. + +Regards, +Bill Page + + http://wspage.tripod.com + + + + +From bill.page1@sympatico.ca Tue Nov 26 12:57:01 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18GjxE-0002uk-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 12:57:00 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18GjxC-0002uO-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 12:57:00 -0500 +Received: from tomts15-srv.bellnexxia.net ([209.226.175.3]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18Gjvi-0002Sb-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 12:55:26 -0500 +Received: from Asus ([209.226.189.107]) by tomts15-srv.bellnexxia.net + (InterMail vM.5.01.04.19 201-253-122-122-119-20020516) with ESMTP + id <20021126175520.DCEX21453.tomts15-srv.bellnexxia.net@Asus>; + Tue, 26 Nov 2002 12:55:20 -0500 +From: "Bill Page" +To: +Cc: , + +Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 12:55:16 -0500 +Message-ID: <000001c29574$fc04c070$6501a8c0@Asus> +MIME-Version: 1.0 +Content-Type: text/plain; + charset="us-ascii" +Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit +X-Priority: 3 (Normal) +X-MSMail-Priority: Normal +X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4024 +Importance: Normal +In-Reply-To: <000601c29560$a8377140$6501a8c0@Asus> +X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 +Subject: [Axiom-developer] RE: [maple8] Maple XML and MATH/ML +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +On Tuesday, November 26, 2002 10:30 AM I wrote: + + http://www.maplesoft.com/standards/MathML/XSL/pmathml.xsl + +>... +> Here are some links to examples of a very simple Maple +> worksheet with the results of these exports +> +> http://wspage.tripod.com/maple/xml-test1.mws +> http://wspage.tripod.com/maple/xml-test1.html +> http://wspage.tripod.com/maple/xml-test1.xml +> +>... +> If you click the 'xml-test1.html' link above, the first +> thing you will notice is the download of a java class to render +> the strange looking encoded math output format apparently called +> XPPMATH, at least that is the tag that is used in both Maple's +> internal mws format and in the exported XML. +> + +The more a look at this the more extraordinary things I see +going on. For example, the "html" file above is not really +a properly formatted HTML document at all! (Ref. +http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml ). The file generated by Maple +starts with the following *XML* declaration + + + + +and has no doctype declaration at all. In fact, this declaration +is just ignored by the browser which really starts interpreting +the code starting with + + + +but if we follow the href on the XML declaration and hack the +stylesheet we find some really interesting (but strange) stuff. + +http://www.maplesoft.com/standards/MathML/XSL/mathml.xsl + +http://www.maplesoft.com/standards/MathML/XSL/pmathml.xsl + +One of the most interesting things I see here is + +- + +Also fairly prominent is the statement + + + + +This XSL stylesheet has some very sophisticat and complex coding +including, but limited to, java and activeX. + +Almost all of this clearly seems to be work-in-progress. It +seems pretty amazing to me that this ended up in the current +commercial release of Maple 8 and is still publically +accessibe on the WMI web site. I really wonder what WMI has +in mind here? + +Addenda to previous message: Apparently the MATH/ML is being +rendered by a Design Science package related to + + http://www.dessci.com/en/products/mathplayer/default.htm + +There products look quite impressive. Too bad not much of +it is open source. + +Regards, +Bill Page. + + + + +From Michel.Lavaud@univ-orleans.fr Tue Nov 26 13:04:59 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18Gk4x-0005tS-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 13:04:59 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18Gk4v-0005tG-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 13:04:58 -0500 +Received: from mimo.univ-orleans.fr ([194.167.30.130] helo=mailhost.univ-orleans.fr) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18Gk4u-0005t6-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 13:04:56 -0500 +Received: from gremi78 (gremi78.univ-orleans.fr [193.49.77.78]) + by mailhost.univ-orleans.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) with ESMTP id TAA18653 + ; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 19:04:49 +0100 +From: michel.lavaud@univ-orleans.fr +To: Mike Dewar +Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 19:08:11 +0100 +MIME-Version: 1.0 +Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 +Content-transfer-encoding: Quoted-printable +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] RE: [xml-litprog-l] Re: noweb, pamphlets, and TeXmacs +CC: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Message-ID: <3DE3C69B.25749.24D9F6F@localhost> +Priority: normal +In-reply-to: <20021126134633.G10007@nag.co.uk> +References: <3DE38319.25093.145E3ED@localhost>; from michel.lavaud@univ-orleans.fr on Tue, Nov 26, 2002 at 02:20:09PM +0100 +X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Hello Mike, + +> Now if you want an archive format + +More generally a stable format (is MathML stable?), for archiving of +course but also for importing, so that one can select for example a TeX +formula in an old document and drop it in Axiom or Maxima, and get the +result. The people of Scientific Software already did a good job in +importing TeX formulas. Unfortunately it's commercial, but it suggests +it's possible. People of LyX did also work in this direction, but much +less far (at least at the time when I compared both). + +> then thats a different matter but I don't think that writing a document +> in LaTeX is any guarentee that it will be readable in 10 years let alone +> 100. Make a hard copy on vellum, thats my advice :-) + +Next year, it will be TeX's 25th anniversary, so we are closer to 100 than= + +to 10... But anyway, you're right, I will buy some vellum, just in case +(hope to use it for MathML ;-) + + +Best wishes, + +Michel.Lavaud@univ-orleans.fr +http://www.univ-orleans.fr/EXT/ASTEX +ftp://ftp.univ-orleans.fr/pub/tex/PC/AsTeX +liste de discussion: astex@univ-orleans.fr +Abonnement =E0 la liste: envoyer un message de contenu +"sub astex Nom Prenom Etablissement" =E0 sympa@univ-orleans.fr + + + +From miked@nag.co.uk Tue Nov 26 08:58:35 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18GgEV-000500-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 08:58:35 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18GgES-0004yZ-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 08:58:34 -0500 +Received: from mail22.messagelabs.com ([193.109.255.115]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18GgES-0004yN-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 08:58:32 -0500 +X-VirusChecked: Checked +X-Env-Sender: miked@nag.co.uk +X-Msg-Ref: server-2.tower-22.messagelabs.com!1038319110!1566 +Received: (qmail 18900 invoked from network); 26 Nov 2002 13:58:30 -0000 +Received: from smtp-7.star.net.uk (212.125.75.76) + by server-2.tower-22.messagelabs.com with SMTP; 26 Nov 2002 13:58:30 -0000 +Received: (qmail 1390 invoked from network); 26 Nov 2002 13:58:29 -0000 +Received: from nagmx1.nag.co.uk (HELO nag.co.uk) (62.231.145.242) + by smtp-7.star.net.uk with SMTP; 26 Nov 2002 13:58:29 -0000 +Received: from brackley.nag.co.uk (brackley.nag.co.uk [192.156.217.21]) + by nag.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA20157; + Tue, 26 Nov 2002 13:58:19 GMT +Received: from nag.co.uk (IDENT:root@trowbridge.nag.co.uk [192.156.217.69]) + by brackley.nag.co.uk (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id gAQDwxJ81054; + Tue, 26 Nov 2002 13:58:59 GMT + (envelope-from miked@nag.co.uk) +Received: (from miked@localhost) + by nag.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA10724; + Tue, 26 Nov 2002 13:57:53 GMT +Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 13:57:53 +0000 +From: Mike Dewar +To: Joris van der Hoeven +Cc: texmacs-dev@gnu.org, Bill Page , + xml-litprog-l@yahoogroups.com, axiom-developer@nongnu.org, + "'Norman Ramsey'" , + "'Barry Trager'" , + "'Manuel Bronstein'" , + "'William Sit'" , cyganski@ece.WPI.EDU, + Mike Dewar +Subject: Re: [Texmacs-dev] Re: [Axiom-developer] RE: [xml-litprog-l] Re: noweb, pamphlets, and TeXmacs +Message-ID: <20021126135753.H10007@nag.co.uk> +References: <20021126095659.B10007@nag.co.uk> +Mime-Version: 1.0 +Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii +X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i +In-Reply-To: ; from TeXmacs@math.u-psud.fr on Tue, Nov 26, 2002 at 12:01:40PM +0100 +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +On Tue, Nov 26, 2002 at 12:01:40PM +0100, Joris van der Hoeven wrote: + +> > As far as rendering goes, Mozilla based its MathML rendering on TeX and +> > is really quite good. The same code also found its way into Netscape 7. +> +> But this allows you only to *render* mathematics, not *editing* it. +True, I merely quoted it because of the quality of the markup. If you +want to edit MathML/OpenMath etc. then there are lots of options: +Mathtype and WebEQ from Design Science, a free add-on to TechExplorer +from IBM (whose name I forget), JOME from the University of Nice, and +several others which I hadn't heard of until I looked at the MathML +software page a couple of minutes ago. + +Quite how useful graphical manipulation of mathematics is is +questionable, but the ability to select/cut/paste sub-expressions in a +graphical environment does seem important to me. + + +> I indeed think that the whole system MathML/Openmath is more complex +> than necessary. +Well that depends what you want to do, other people say that they are +not sophisticated enough for formal applications. For what I want to do +they're about right ;-) + +> Also, it has mainly been developed with rendering +> in mind, not editing. I finally notice that Openmath does not seem +??? MathML presentation is by definition about presentation. OpenMath +and MathML-content are about semantics which is what you need in a piece +of mathematical software. + +> to work very well. +In what sense? + +Mike. + +_____________________________________________________________________ +This message has been checked for all known viruses by Star Internet +delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Scanning Service. For further +information visit http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp or alternatively call +Star Internet for details on the Virus Scanning Service. + + + +From TeXmacs@math.u-psud.fr Tue Nov 26 09:28:04 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18Ggh1-0004Px-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 09:28:03 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18Gggz-0004Pa-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 09:28:03 -0500 +Received: from mathups.math.u-psud.fr ([129.175.52.4] helo=matups.math.u-psud.fr) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18Gggy-0004PS-00; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 09:28:01 -0500 +Received: from anh.math.u-psud.fr (anh.math.u-psud.fr [129.175.50.156]) + by matups.math.u-psud.fr (8.11.6/jtpda-5.3.3) with ESMTP id gAQERuj10721 + ; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 15:27:56 +0100 (MET) +Received: from anh (anh [129.175.50.156]) + by anh.math.u-psud.fr (Postfix) with SMTP + id 53D3EB2C8; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 15:27:55 +0100 (MET) +Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 15:27:54 +0100 (MET) +From: Joris van der Hoeven +X-Sender: texmacs@anh +To: Mike Dewar +Cc: Joris van der Hoeven , texmacs-dev@gnu.org, + Bill Page , xml-litprog-l@yahoogroups.com, + axiom-developer@nongnu.org, "'Norman Ramsey'" , + "'Barry Trager'" , + "'Manuel Bronstein'" , + "'William Sit'" , cyganski@ece.WPI.EDU +Subject: Re: [Texmacs-dev] Re: [Axiom-developer] RE: [xml-litprog-l] Re: noweb, pamphlets, and TeXmacs +In-Reply-To: <20021126135753.H10007@nag.co.uk> +Message-ID: +MIME-Version: 1.0 +Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +> Quite how useful graphical manipulation of mathematics is is +> questionable, + +For people who got brainwashed by *TeX/*ML, maybe, +but I do not think that this is a philosophical subject +for most other users. + +> > I indeed think that the whole system MathML/Openmath is more complex +> > than necessary. +> Well that depends what you want to do, other people say that they are +> not sophisticated enough for formal applications. For what I want to do +> they're about right ;-) +> +> > Also, it has mainly been developed with rendering +> > in mind, not editing. I finally notice that Openmath does not seem +> ??? MathML presentation is by definition about presentation. OpenMath +> and MathML-content are about semantics which is what you need in a piece +> of mathematical software. +> +> > to work very well. +> In what sense? + +I'm not going to start a flamewar on this and I will wait for an occasion +(and time) to write a detailed article with my opinions about this matter. + +At the moment, I am just interested in investigating what +is missing in TeXmacs to make it a good frontend for Axiom and +maybe a good environment for litterate programming and integrated help. +I have made clear what we can do in that direction: compatability with +MathML and something like Anthony's markup language for the litterate +programming. If Bill Page is willing to do some of the programming, +then that would be great. If you prefer other tools, like Mozilla, +Leo, or I don't know what, fine too, but please tell us so as soon +as possible. + + + + +From rubey@labri.fr Tue Nov 26 16:15:16 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18Gn36-0000y5-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 16:15:16 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18Gn34-0000ua-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 16:15:15 -0500 +Received: from iona.labri.fr ([147.210.8.143]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18Gn33-0000uM-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 16:15:13 -0500 +Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) + by iona.labri.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP + id 7C5DE7E86; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 22:15:12 +0100 (CET) +Received: from invite02 (invite02.labri.fr [147.210.9.236]) + by iona.labri.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP + id 824EB7E48; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 22:15:11 +0100 (CET) +Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 22:15:48 +0100 (CET) +From: Martin RUBEY +To: Mike Dewar +Cc: Joris van der Hoeven , + , Bill Page , + , , + 'Norman Ramsey' , + 'Barry Trager' , + 'Manuel Bronstein' , + 'William Sit' , +Subject: Re: [Texmacs-dev] Re: [Axiom-developer] RE: [xml-litprog-l] Re: + noweb, pamphlets, and TeXmacs +In-Reply-To: <20021126135753.H10007@nag.co.uk> +Message-ID: +MIME-Version: 1.0 +Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII +X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS new-20020517 +X-Razor-id: 4cc6c51f63816c97eada80b4fda472b1d82c67df +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +> Quite how useful graphical manipulation of mathematics is is +> questionable, but the ability to select/cut/paste sub-expressions in a +> graphical environment does seem important to me. + +kdvi just started to make "select" possible. Well, started... + + + + +From bill.page1@sympatico.ca Tue Nov 26 19:25:54 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18Gq1Z-00009M-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 19:25:53 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18Gq1W-00007L-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 19:25:52 -0500 +Received: from tomts22-srv.bellnexxia.net ([209.226.175.184]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18Gq1V-0008VX-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 19:25:49 -0500 +Received: from Asus ([206.172.142.74]) by tomts22-srv.bellnexxia.net + (InterMail vM.5.01.04.19 201-253-122-122-119-20020516) with ESMTP + id <20021127002546.CJVG19235.tomts22-srv.bellnexxia.net@Asus>; + Tue, 26 Nov 2002 19:25:47 -0500 +From: "Bill Page" +To: +Cc: +Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 19:25:42 -0500 +Message-ID: <000001c295ab$87163140$6501a8c0@Asus> +MIME-Version: 1.0 +Content-Type: text/plain; + charset="us-ascii" +Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit +X-Priority: 3 (Normal) +X-MSMail-Priority: Normal +X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4024 +Importance: Normal +In-Reply-To: <200211231717.gANHHqI12842@localhost.localdomain> +X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 +Subject: [Axiom-developer] testing cvs +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Tim, + +I've committed a very simple change to the main makefile.pamphlet +at tenkan. This change allows me to build noweb on both Cygwin +and Msys. Let me know if you can get cvs to tell you about the +change I made. If this works, I will be able to try a few more +things over the next few days. + +Cheers, +Bill Page. + + + + +From bill.page1@sympatico.ca Tue Nov 26 20:18:24 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18GqqN-0006iI-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 20:18:23 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18GqqM-0006i2-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 20:18:23 -0500 +Received: from tomts13.bellnexxia.net ([209.226.175.34] helo=tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18GqqL-0006hq-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 20:18:21 -0500 +Received: from Asus ([64.228.8.44]) by tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net + (InterMail vM.5.01.04.19 201-253-122-122-119-20020516) with ESMTP + id <20021127011820.QIYG24116.tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net@Asus>; + Tue, 26 Nov 2002 20:18:20 -0500 +From: "Bill Page" +To: +Cc: , + +Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 20:18:17 -0500 +Message-ID: <000001c295b2$de992150$6501a8c0@Asus> +MIME-Version: 1.0 +Content-Type: text/plain; + charset="us-ascii" +Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit +X-Priority: 3 (Normal) +X-MSMail-Priority: Normal +X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4024 +Importance: Normal +In-Reply-To: +X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 +Subject: [Axiom-developer] MetaPRL +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Tim, + +Thank you very much for the keyword MetaPRL. It's some +amazing stuff alright. So much more to learn now and so +little time ... But of course I couldn't resist +downloading some of the papers, documentation and the +package, + + http://cvs.metaprl.org:12000/metaprl/default.html + +afterall there are 23 useable hours in each day. Right? + + + +Cheers, +Bill Page. + + + + +From daly@idsi.net Tue Nov 26 23:27:50 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18Gtnh-0007Zw-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 23:27:49 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18Gtnf-0007X5-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 23:27:48 -0500 +Received: from flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.232]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18Gtnf-0007Va-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 23:27:47 -0500 +Received: from dialup-65.58.186.244.dial1.stamford1.level3.net ([65.58.186.244] helo=localhost.localdomain) + by flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) + id 18GtnW-0004yR-00; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 20:27:38 -0800 +Received: (from root@localhost) + by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.6) id gAR4O4k25302; + Tue, 26 Nov 2002 23:24:05 -0500 +Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 23:24:05 -0500 +Message-Id: <200211270424.gAR4O4k25302@localhost.localdomain> +From: root +To: bill.page1@sympatico.ca +CC: daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org, cyganski@ece.WPI.EDU +In-reply-to: <000001c295b2$de992150$6501a8c0@Asus> (bill.page1@sympatico.ca) +Reply-to: daly@idsi.net +References: <000001c295b2$de992150$6501a8c0@Asus> +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: MetaPRL +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Bill, + +Just got back from a Meatloaf concert. Great show. +I'll try the CVS thingie, then I gotta get my hour of coma +before I do it all again. + +Tim + + + +From daly@idsi.net Tue Nov 26 23:31:48 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18GtrY-0002Ir-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 23:31:48 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18GtrW-0002Gx-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 23:31:47 -0500 +Received: from snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.62]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18GtrV-0002Gt-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 23:31:45 -0500 +Received: from dialup-63.215.226.143.dial1.stamford1.level3.net ([63.215.226.143] helo=localhost.localdomain) + by snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) + id 18GtrT-0000TU-00; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 20:31:43 -0800 +Received: (from root@localhost) + by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.6) id gAR4SB025571; + Tue, 26 Nov 2002 23:28:11 -0500 +Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 23:28:11 -0500 +Message-Id: <200211270428.gAR4SB025571@localhost.localdomain> +From: root +To: bill.page1@sympatico.ca +CC: daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org, cyganski@ece.WPI.EDU +In-reply-to: <000001c295b2$de992150$6501a8c0@Asus> (bill.page1@sympatico.ca) +Reply-to: daly@idsi.net +References: <000001c295b2$de992150$6501a8c0@Asus> +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: MetaPRL +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +tenkan appears to be down at the moment. i'll try tomorrow. --t + + + + +From wyscc@cunyvm.cuny.edu Tue Nov 26 23:26:23 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18GtmJ-0006As-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 23:26:23 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18GtmG-0006AZ-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 23:26:22 -0500 +Received: from pop018pub.verizon.net ([206.46.170.212] helo=pop018.verizon.net) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18GtmG-0006AU-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Tue, 26 Nov 2002 23:26:20 -0500 +Received: from cunyvm.cuny.edu ([151.202.188.144]) by pop018.verizon.net + (InterMail vM.5.01.05.09 201-253-122-126-109-20020611) with ESMTP + id <20021127042619.MOY4558.pop018.verizon.net@cunyvm.cuny.edu>; + Tue, 26 Nov 2002 22:26:19 -0600 +Message-ID: <3DE4495F.F314BD07@cunyvm.cuny.edu> +Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 23:26:07 -0500 +From: William Sit +Reply-To: wyscc@cunyvm.cuny.edu +Organization: City College of New York +X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; U) +X-Accept-Language: zh,en +MIME-Version: 1.0 +To: Martin RUBEY +CC: Mike Dewar , + Joris van der Hoeven , + texmacs-dev@gnu.org, Bill Page , + xml-litprog-l@yahoogroups.com, axiom-developer@nongnu.org, + 'Norman Ramsey' , + 'Barry Trager' , + 'Manuel Bronstein' , + cyganski@ece.WPI.EDU +Subject: Re: [Texmacs-dev] Re: [Axiom-developer] RE: [xml-litprog-l] Re:noweb, + pamphlets, and TeXmacs +References: +Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii +Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit +X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH PLAIN at pop018.verizon.net from [151.202.188.144] at Tue, 26 Nov 2002 22:26:18 -0600 +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + + +Martin RUBEY wrote: +> +> > Quite how useful graphical manipulation of mathematics is is +> > questionable, but the ability to select/cut/paste sub-expressions in a +> > graphical environment does seem important to me. +> +> kdvi just started to make "select" possible. Well, started... + +Even so, this is probably display (or word-processor type) cut and +paste. My guess is it would be meaningless to pass a (sub)expression +from a dvi display to say Mathematica or Axiom. To cut and paste an +output expression to an input window and have the expression make +mathematical sense so further computation can be done on it requires +MathML (both presentation and (at least) content are passed). This is +easy for a single computer algebra system (Derive had this years ago), +but to do so across different systems needs a common protocol, and +MathML or OpenML are partial solutions. A TeX expression does not have +an unambiguous mathematical meaning. MathML tags define a unique +mathematical meaning to a subclass of mathematical expression. In some +sense, all the operations involved in a mathematical expression must be +identified by their signatures and operands by their domains. Since +Axiom is strongly typed, it is probably a good candidate to include the +signatures and domain information along with the display information. +But of course, this is again "within-one-CAS-system" approach because +other systems would not understand Axiom signatures. So what would be +needed is a common naming conventions (signatures and domains) for a +large class of mathematical operations and objects. The design of MathML +and OpenML are influenced a lot by Mathematica. Perhaps the next +generation could be influenced by Axiom? + +William +-- +William Sit +Department of Mathematics..............Email: wyscc@cunyvm.cuny.edu +City College of New York..........................Tel: 212-650-5179 +Convent Ave at West 138th Street..................Fax: 212-862-0004 +New York, NY 10031.....Asian Symposium on Computer Mathematics 2003 +USA..........................http://www.mmrc.iss.ac.cn/~ascm/ascm03 + + + +From miked@nag.co.uk Wed Nov 27 05:06:00 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18Gz4y-0002ZI-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 05:06:00 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18Gz4v-0002Sx-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 05:05:59 -0500 +Received: from mail22.messagelabs.com ([193.109.255.115]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18Gz4v-0002Ss-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 05:05:57 -0500 +X-VirusChecked: Checked +X-Env-Sender: miked@nag.co.uk +X-Msg-Ref: server-18.tower-22.messagelabs.com!1038391449!5856 +Received: (qmail 17951 invoked from network); 27 Nov 2002 10:04:09 -0000 +Received: from smtp-2.star.net.uk (212.125.75.71) + by server-18.tower-22.messagelabs.com with SMTP; 27 Nov 2002 10:04:09 -0000 +Received: (qmail 26067 invoked from network); 27 Nov 2002 10:05:07 -0000 +Received: from nagmx1.nag.co.uk (HELO nag.co.uk) (62.231.145.242) + by smtp-2.star.net.uk with SMTP; 27 Nov 2002 10:05:07 -0000 +Received: from brackley.nag.co.uk (brackley.nag.co.uk [192.156.217.21]) + by nag.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA00149; + Wed, 27 Nov 2002 10:05:00 GMT +Received: from nag.co.uk (IDENT:root@trowbridge.nag.co.uk [192.156.217.69]) + by brackley.nag.co.uk (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id gARA5TJ84482; + Wed, 27 Nov 2002 10:05:29 GMT + (envelope-from miked@nag.co.uk) +Received: (from miked@localhost) + by nag.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA11718; + Wed, 27 Nov 2002 10:04:19 GMT +Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 10:04:19 +0000 +From: Mike Dewar +To: Bill Page +Cc: maple8@yahoogroups.com, texmacs-dev@gnu.org, axiom-developer@nongnu.org, + Mike Dewar +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] RE: [maple8] Maple XML and MATH/ML +Message-ID: <20021127100419.A11697@nag.co.uk> +References: <000601c29560$a8377140$6501a8c0@Asus> <000001c29574$fc04c070$6501a8c0@Asus> +Mime-Version: 1.0 +Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii +X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i +In-Reply-To: <000001c29574$fc04c070$6501a8c0@Asus>; from bill.page1@sympatico.ca on Tue, Nov 26, 2002 at 12:55:16PM -0500 +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Hi Bill, + +I think the "html" file is a t confused! The file looks as if its +trying to be XHTML but the body of the file is HTML, not XHTML. + +The stylesheet you pointed at was written by my colleague David Carlisle +for the MathML Working Group (of which he is a member) to allow a user +(e.g. Waterloo Maple) to publish documents which can be rendered on a +number of platforms with different rendering strategies. So on Mozilla, +Amaya etc you get native rendering but on IE you'd use the MathPlayer +plugin. Its only work in progress in the sense that it will be extended +to cope with new versions as they evolve. However (a) the version WMI +quote is out-of-date (they have to have a local copy otherwise IE thinks +its a security risk), and (b) they aren't using it anyway and are +rendering via their own plugin which I believe to be based on an old +version of WebEQ. If you're interested in the real version of the +stylesheet have a look at http://www.w3.org/Math/XSL. + +Mike. + + +On Tue, Nov 26, 2002 at 12:55:16PM -0500, Bill Page wrote: +> On Tuesday, November 26, 2002 10:30 AM I wrote: +> +> http://www.maplesoft.com/standards/MathML/XSL/pmathml.xsl +> +> >... +> > Here are some links to examples of a very simple Maple +> > worksheet with the results of these exports +> > +> > http://wspage.tripod.com/maple/xml-test1.mws +> > http://wspage.tripod.com/maple/xml-test1.html +> > http://wspage.tripod.com/maple/xml-test1.xml +> > +> >... +> > If you click the 'xml-test1.html' link above, the first +> > thing you will notice is the download of a java class to render +> > the strange looking encoded math output format apparently called +> > XPPMATH, at least that is the tag that is used in both Maple's +> > internal mws format and in the exported XML. +> > +> +> The more a look at this the more extraordinary things I see +> going on. For example, the "html" file above is not really +> a properly formatted HTML document at all! (Ref. +> http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml ). The file generated by Maple +> starts with the following *XML* declaration +> +> +> href="http://www.maplesoft.com/standards/MathML/XSL/mathml.xsl"?> +> +> and has no doctype declaration at all. In fact, this declaration +> is just ignored by the browser which really starts interpreting +> the code starting with +> +> +> +> but if we follow the href on the XML declaration and hack the +> stylesheet we find some really interesting (but strange) stuff. +> +> http://www.maplesoft.com/standards/MathML/XSL/mathml.xsl +> +> http://www.maplesoft.com/standards/MathML/XSL/pmathml.xsl +> +> One of the most interesting things I see here is +> +> - +> +> Also fairly prominent is the statement +> +> +> +> +> This XSL stylesheet has some very sophisticat and complex coding +> including, but limited to, java and activeX. +> +> Almost all of this clearly seems to be work-in-progress. It +> seems pretty amazing to me that this ended up in the current +> commercial release of Maple 8 and is still publically +> accessibe on the WMI web site. I really wonder what WMI has +> in mind here? +> +> Addenda to previous message: Apparently the MATH/ML is being +> rendered by a Design Science package related to +> +> http://www.dessci.com/en/products/mathplayer/default.htm +> +> There products look quite impressive. Too bad not much of +> it is open source. +> +> Regards, +> Bill Page. +> +> +> +> _______________________________________________ +> Axiom-developer mailing list +> Axiom-developer@nongnu.org +> http://mail.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/axiom-developer +> +> _____________________________________________________________________ +> This message has been checked for all known viruses by Star Internet +> delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Scanning Service. For further +> information visit http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp or alternatively call +> Star Internet for details on the Virus Scanning Service. + +_____________________________________________________________________ +This message has been checked for all known viruses by Star Internet +delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Scanning Service. For further +information visit http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp or alternatively call +Star Internet for details on the Virus Scanning Service. + + + +From Michel.Lavaud@univ-orleans.fr Wed Nov 27 13:28:06 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18H6us-0004dd-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 13:28:06 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18H6up-0004Xi-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 13:28:05 -0500 +Received: from maat.univ-orleans.fr ([194.167.30.130] helo=mailhost.univ-orleans.fr) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18H6up-0004UK-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 13:28:03 -0500 +Received: from gremi78 (gremi78.univ-orleans.fr [193.49.77.78]) + by mailhost.univ-orleans.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) with ESMTP id TAA25445 + ; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 19:27:56 +0100 +From: michel.lavaud@univ-orleans.fr +To: wyscc@cunyvm.cuny.edu +Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 19:32:58 +0100 +MIME-Version: 1.0 +Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 +Content-transfer-encoding: Quoted-printable +Subject: Re: [Texmacs-dev] Re: [Axiom-developer] RE: [xml-litprog-l] Re:noweb, pamphlets, and TeXmacs +CC: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Message-ID: <3DE51DEA.27824.49FC83@localhost> +Priority: normal +In-reply-to: <3DE4495F.F314BD07@cunyvm.cuny.edu> +X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Hello William, + +> A TeX expression does not have +> an unambiguous mathematical meaning. MathML tags define a unique +> mathematical meaning to a subclass of mathematical expression. + +Sorry I don't see exactly what you mean, could you develop a little your +arguments? In what sense is $x_i$ for example ambiguous? + + +Michel.Lavaud@univ-orleans.fr +http://www.univ-orleans.fr/EXT/ASTEX +ftp://ftp.univ-orleans.fr/pub/tex/PC/AsTeX +liste de discussion: astex@univ-orleans.fr +Abonnement =E0 la liste: envoyer un message de contenu +"sub astex Nom Prenom Etablissement" =E0 sympa@univ-orleans.fr + + + +From daly@idsi.net Wed Nov 27 13:58:40 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18H7OR-0005wd-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 13:58:39 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18H7OP-0005w7-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 13:58:39 -0500 +Received: from grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.46]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18H7OO-0005vw-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 13:58:36 -0500 +Received: from dialup-65.58.184.146.dial1.stamford1.level3.net ([65.58.184.146] helo=localhost.localdomain) + by grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) + id 18H7OH-0001nX-00; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 10:58:30 -0800 +Received: (from root@localhost) + by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.6) id gARIsu526495; + Wed, 27 Nov 2002 13:54:56 -0500 +Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 13:54:56 -0500 +Message-Id: <200211271854.gARIsu526495@localhost.localdomain> +From: root +To: camm@enhanced.com, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +CC: daly@idsi.net +Reply-to: daly@idsi.net +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Makefile and CVS +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +The CVS change worked fine. Please move your comments from the +generated Makefile to the text block above and write them so +a new developer could understand the issue and why the change +exists. They might, for example, have the MKS toolkit which +includes strip.exe. So, for example, instead of: + +<>= +# Changed to comment out strip symbol table since -WSP +# executables have a .exe. extension under Windows. - WSP +... + +which was the old "in code" comment model. We now have a tool +for deeply explaining changes in real text. So a better form is: + +Fixed the stupid bug +<>= +... + +Just kidding. But the whole reason for using literate programming and +latex is that we are creating a living document around the "compiled" +form of the Makefile. Makefile files are just machine-generated +output. They shouldn't include comments as the machine won't care and +humans should not be reading them. + +So a better suggestion (in fuller detail) might be to mark your +changes as a code chunk, create them out of line and document the +need for the change thus: + + +......... + + +The noweb makefile will attempt to remove the symbol table of +the constructed executable using the strip program. This program +does not exist on Windows so we cannot use it. Since noweb is +a package maintained outside of Axiom's control we cannot change +the Makefile directly. Instead we apply the following patch: + +<>= + sed 's/strip/#strip/g;s/ELISP=\/dev\/null/ELISP=\/tmp\/null/' makefile > makefile.tmp ; \ + mv makefile makefile.old ; \ + mv makefile.tmp makefile ; \ + sed 's/strip/#strip/g;s/ELISP=\/dev\/null/ELISP=\/tmp\/null/' makefile.nw > makefile.nw.tmp ; \ + mv makefile.nw makefile.nw.old ; \ + mv makefile.nw.tmp makefile.nw ; \ +@ + +<>= +noweb: + @echo 13 making noweb + @mkdir -p ${OBJ}/noweb + @mkdir -p ${TMP} + @mkdir -p ${MNT}/${SYS}/bin + @( cd ${OBJ}/noweb ; \ +<> + tar -zxf ${ZIPS}/noweb-2.10a.tgz ; \ + cd ${OBJ}/noweb/src ; \ + ./awkname gawk ; \ + ${MAKE} BIN=${MNT}/${SYS}/bin LIB=${MNT}/${SYS}/bin/lib \ + MAN=${MNT}/${SYS}/bin/man \ + TEXINPUTS=${MNT}/${SYS}/bin/tex all install >${TMP}/trace ) + @echo The file marks the fact that noweb has been made > noweb + +.......... + + +Notice that the explanation will no longer show up in the Makefile. +It will explain why we need to "reach into" another Makefile rather +than change it directly. It takes the patch "out of line" so other +people can remove it later if they wish (by creating a <> +stanza or some such that they include in their platform files. + +Also, just to be painful about this but this change might better +be applied as follows: + +(1) +cd ${OBJ}/noweb/src +change the makefile +diff -Naur makefile makefile.wsp >makefile.noweb.strip + +(2) +copy makefile.noweb.strip to the $SPAD/zips directory + +(3) +modify the <>= stanza to read + +<>= +noweb: + @echo 13 making noweb + @mkdir -p ${OBJ}/noweb + @mkdir -p ${TMP} + @mkdir -p ${MNT}/${SYS}/bin + @( cd ${OBJ}/noweb ; \ + patch < ${ZIPS}/makefile.noweb.strip + tar -zxf ${ZIPS}/noweb-2.10a.tgz ; \ + cd ${OBJ}/noweb/src ; \ + ./awkname gawk ; \ + ${MAKE} BIN=${MNT}/${SYS}/bin LIB=${MNT}/${SYS}/bin/lib \ + MAN=${MNT}/${SYS}/bin/man \ + TEXINPUTS=${MNT}/${SYS}/bin/tex all install >${TMP}/trace ) + @echo The file marks the fact that noweb has been made > noweb + +I have a patch to noweb I'll be applying in the same way so I'll +end up rewriting your patch. Patch is preferred to sed because +patch handles context and is marginally easier to use since you +can "hand patch" the changes if you wish. + +I can "export" patch files back to the original projects like +noweb and GCL where they can easily apply them. + +And I expect to receive changes in patch form from people who +do not have write access to the CVS. Patch files are automatically +handled by a few tools like emacs. + +Patches may also be used between minor versions, although I'm +undecided about that. The shower-committee debate still rages. + +Changes to things we actually control, of course, will just get +made to CVS. + +I'm being verbose about the suggested changes more for the +developer community benefit than yours. I want to document the +"guidelines" for future reference. + +Feel free to argue. + + +Tim + + + + + +From daly@idsi.net Wed Nov 27 14:03:44 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18H7TM-0002zq-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 14:03:44 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18H7Ru-0002Ex-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 14:02:17 -0500 +Received: from hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.22]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18H7Rt-00029k-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 14:02:13 -0500 +Received: from dialup-65.58.184.146.dial1.stamford1.level3.net ([65.58.184.146] helo=localhost.localdomain) + by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) + id 18H7Rq-0003FZ-00; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 11:02:10 -0800 +Received: (from root@localhost) + by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.6) id gARIwa226501; + Wed, 27 Nov 2002 13:58:36 -0500 +Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 13:58:36 -0500 +Message-Id: <200211271858.gARIwa226501@localhost.localdomain> +From: root +To: michel.lavaud@univ-orleans.fr +CC: wyscc@cunyvm.cuny.edu, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +In-reply-to: <3DE51DEA.27824.49FC83@localhost> (michel.lavaud@univ-orleans.fr) +Subject: Re: [Texmacs-dev] Re: [Axiom-developer] RE: [xml-litprog-l] Re:noweb, pamphlets, and TeXmacs +Reply-to: daly@idsi.net +References: <3DE51DEA.27824.49FC83@localhost> +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Michel, + +The expression $x_i$ is ambiguous for many reasons. You don't know the +type of x. It could be a vector so x_i is an element. It could be a +symbol so x_i is a symbol. It could be a matrix so x_i could be a +vector, etc. + +Without knowing the type of x (and, by the way, of i) and the domain +of discourse x_i says nothing. + +Tim + + + +From daly@idsi.net Wed Nov 27 14:12:05 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18H7bQ-000332-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 14:12:04 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18H7bM-0002xV-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 14:12:02 -0500 +Received: from swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.123]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18H7bM-0002wb-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 14:12:00 -0500 +Received: from dialup-65.58.184.146.dial1.stamford1.level3.net ([65.58.184.146] helo=localhost.localdomain) + by swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) + id 18H7bK-00045u-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 11:11:58 -0800 +Received: (from root@localhost) + by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.6) id gARJ8O026519; + Wed, 27 Nov 2002 14:08:24 -0500 +Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 14:08:24 -0500 +Message-Id: <200211271908.gARJ8O026519@localhost.localdomain> +From: root +To: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Reply-to: daly@idsi.net +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: GCL on windows. +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Greetings! GCL Mingw is apparently in decent shape, thanks to Mike +Thomas and David Billinghurst. Compiles maxima and ACL2. You can get +the latest snapshot from +ftp://ftp.gnu.org/pub/gnu/gcl/cvs/gcl_mingw32_20021119.zip. + +Take care, + +root writes: + +> hey *, +> +> what's the state of this? does gcl run on windows under anything +> (cygwin, mingw, native)? +> +> Tim +> +> +> +> + +-- +Camm Maguire camm@enhanced.com + + + +From daly@idsi.net Wed Nov 27 16:33:15 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18H9o3-00076S-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 16:33:15 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18H9nz-00071L-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 16:33:13 -0500 +Received: from flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.232]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18H9nz-00071E-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 16:33:11 -0500 +Received: from dialup-65.58.184.146.dial1.stamford1.level3.net ([65.58.184.146] helo=localhost.localdomain) + by flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) + id 18H9nx-0000mH-00; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 13:33:10 -0800 +Received: (from root@localhost) + by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.6) id gARLTcM26609; + Wed, 27 Nov 2002 16:29:38 -0500 +Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 16:29:38 -0500 +Message-Id: <200211272129.gARLTcM26609@localhost.localdomain> +From: root +To: bill.page1@sympatico.ca +CC: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Reply-to: daly@idsi.net +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: [Gcl-devel] Re: GCL on windows. +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +>Bill Page wrote: + +> Just to be clear. MinGW/Msys is not an extension of the +> Windows operating system (like Cygwin is) but rather +> just a minimal development environment that results in +> a native Windows application. Originally there was +> just a native windows GCC compiler called MinGW. Now +> there is a rapidly growing set of utilitys and libraries +> ported from the Linux originals which makes up Msys. So +> far in my experience it is much faster than Cygwin and +> seems to be in a state of very active development where as +> Cygwin is now viewed (by some at least) as a bit "old +> fashioned". A lot of the MinGW/Msys stuff is derived by +> people with Cygwin experience. +> +> The biggest difficulty that I see in MinGW is the lack +> of the X-windows environment which is (more or less) +> unique to Unix (and part of Cygwin). Microsoft Windows +> itself *is* a windows environment but very different +> from X-windows. So porting Unix graphical applications to +> Microsoft Windows is currently rather difficult. But their +> are some people working on methods to make this easier in +> the future. +> +> After several tests and trials, I think MinGW/Msys (rather +> than Cygwin) is the best choice for building the Windows +> version of Axiom. + +Ok. I'll defer to whatever choice you find appropriate. +The graphics portion of Axiom currently amounts to the +hypertex browser and the drawing software. The interpreter +doesn't really depend on anything since it was developed +to run on a text-only mainframe. Getting interpsys and +the algebra running is the first goal. + +The windows version of Axiom used to use IBM's TexExplorer +software but that was not released. I'll cruise around the +web for some combination of tex, graphics & windows software. +We can't be the first people to need an open-source version +of this. + +Magnus has a tcl/tk front end. I believe that tcl/tk software +will run on windows. Do you know if this is true? Perhaps we +can steal the front-end as it is a stand-alone piece of +software. + +Tim + + + + +From wyscc@cunyvm.cuny.edu Wed Nov 27 16:39:18 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18H9tu-0005RO-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 16:39:18 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18H9ts-0005RB-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 16:39:18 -0500 +Received: from out003pub.verizon.net ([206.46.170.103] helo=out003.verizon.net) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18H9ts-0005R5-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 16:39:16 -0500 +Received: from cunyvm.cuny.edu ([151.202.188.144]) by out003.verizon.net + (InterMail vM.5.01.05.09 201-253-122-126-109-20020611) with ESMTP + id <20021127213915.GEMB12337.out003.verizon.net@cunyvm.cuny.edu>; + Wed, 27 Nov 2002 15:39:15 -0600 +Message-ID: <3DE53B76.2ED0461D@cunyvm.cuny.edu> +Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 16:39:02 -0500 +From: William Sit +Reply-To: wyscc@cunyvm.cuny.edu +Organization: City College of New York +X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; U) +X-Accept-Language: zh,en +MIME-Version: 1.0 +To: daly@idsi.net +CC: michel.lavaud@univ-orleans.fr, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Subject: Re: [Texmacs-dev] Re: [Axiom-developer] RE: [xml-litprog-l] + Re:noweb,pamphlets, and TeXmacs +References: <3DE51DEA.27824.49FC83@localhost> <200211271858.gARIwa226501@localhost.localdomain> +Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii +Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit +X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH PLAIN at out003.verizon.net from [151.202.188.144] at Wed, 27 Nov 2002 15:39:14 -0600 +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +michel.lavaud@univ-orleans.fr wrote: +> +> Hello William, +> +> > A TeX expression does not have +> > an unambiguous mathematical meaning. MathML tags define a unique +> > mathematical meaning to a subclass of mathematical expression. +> +> Sorry I don't see exactly what you mean, could you develop a little your +> arguments? In what sense is $x_i$ for example ambiguous? + +Tim Daly wrote: +> +> Michel, +> +> The expression $x_i$ is ambiguous for many reasons. You don't know the +> type of x. It could be a vector so x_i is an element. It could be a +> symbol so x_i is a symbol. It could be a matrix so x_i could be a +> vector, etc. +> +> Without knowing the type of x (and, by the way, of i) and the domain +> of discourse x_i says nothing. +> +> Tim + +Thanks, Tim. In fact, in typesetting, the meaning of the expression +$x_i$ also depends on its surrounding environment. Mathematicians and +physicists create their own notations, typically these are adopted +"universally" IN THE SUBAREA. Physicists typically write $a_{ij} x_i$ to +mean summation as $i$ runs through its range. So even if we know the +domain of both $x$ and of $i$, and the "operator" $\_$ (subscript, which +IS a unary operator with lots of different meanings, for example, $x_i$ +could mean the partial derivative of $x$ with respect to the $i$-th +independent variable, or the order $i$ derivative with respect to some +notationally unspecified independent variable), we still won't know what +$x_i$ means in context. Only the human mathematician or physicist can +"read between the symbols". + +This, is one reason I say MathML and OpenML are only partial solutions +to the content problem. Fortunately, in computer algebra systems, as in +contrast to typesetting or display, the systems require more precise +meanings and can handle polymorphism and overloading of operators. So +the trick is not to lose such information once an expression is sent to +the display handler. + +William + + + +From daly@idsi.net Wed Nov 27 17:22:18 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18HAZW-0006TC-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 17:22:18 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18HAZT-0006Qj-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 17:22:17 -0500 +Received: from swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.123]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18HAZT-0006Qe-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 17:22:15 -0500 +Received: from dialup-65.58.184.146.dial1.stamford1.level3.net ([65.58.184.146] helo=localhost.localdomain) + by swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) + id 18HAZR-0000lm-00; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 14:22:14 -0800 +Received: (from root@localhost) + by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.6) id gARMIgK26688; + Wed, 27 Nov 2002 17:18:42 -0500 +Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 17:18:42 -0500 +Message-Id: <200211272218.gARMIgK26688@localhost.localdomain> +From: root +To: bill.page1@sympatico.ca +CC: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Reply-to: daly@idsi.net +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Windows noweb patch +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Bill, + +I've modified the Makefile.pamphlet in the CVS. +I've added 4 files to the zips subdirectory: + noweb.modules.c.patch + noweb.modules.nw.patch + noweb.src.Makefile.patch + noweb.src.Makefile.nw.patch + +The first problem in noweb is that it elides chunknames that +it does not recognize. Thus in: + c << 2 && d >> 3 +you get the following output: + c 3 +which is clearly incorrect. +The first two patch files fix that. + +The second problems is that noweb doesn't build cleanly on Windows. +It appears you change 2 things: comment out the strip call and +change all /dev/null to /tmp/null. These changes are fixed by +the second patch. + +Since the second set of changes are windows specific you'll find that +the Makefile.pamphlet has a new chunck called <>. +When you make a Windows platform file use this chunkname rather than +the <> chunkname. + +Tim + + + + + +From daly@idsi.net Wed Nov 27 17:33:00 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18HAjr-0001Cr-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 17:32:59 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18HAjp-00016s-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 17:32:58 -0500 +Received: from grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.46]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18HAjo-00014l-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 17:32:56 -0500 +Received: from dialup-65.58.184.146.dial1.stamford1.level3.net ([65.58.184.146] helo=localhost.localdomain) + by grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) + id 18HAjm-00011B-00; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 14:32:55 -0800 +Received: (from root@localhost) + by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.6) id gARMTMw26701; + Wed, 27 Nov 2002 17:29:22 -0500 +Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 17:29:22 -0500 +Message-Id: <200211272229.gARMTMw26701@localhost.localdomain> +From: root +To: stannous@cisco.com +CC: daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Reply-to: daly@idsi.net +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: Axiom +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +I've sent a request to have an account created for you. +You'll hear back about it as soon as the sysadmin does it. + +Anonymous access uses the username "anonymous", with an empty +password. "anonymous" only has read access. So, you can tell your +users to: + +cvs -d:pserver:anonymous@axiom.tenkan.org:/home/cvs login +(empty password) +cvs -d:pserver:anonymous@axiom.tenkan.org:/home/cvs co axiom + +cd axiom/new/new +make + +Let me know what fails. + +Tim + + + + +From bill.page1@sympatico.ca Wed Nov 27 18:01:43 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18HBBf-0005WM-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 18:01:43 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18HBBb-0005Vi-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 18:01:42 -0500 +Received: from tomts19.bellnexxia.net ([209.226.175.73] helo=tomts19-srv.bellnexxia.net) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18HBBb-0005VV-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 18:01:39 -0500 +Received: from [209.226.175.18] by tomts19-srv.bellnexxia.net + (InterMail vM.5.01.04.19 201-253-122-122-119-20020516) with SMTP + id <20021127230138.HBVV27245.tomts19-srv.bellnexxia.net@[209.226.175.18]> + for ; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 18:01:38 -0500 +From: Bill Page +Organization: Daneliuk & Page +To: +Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 18:01:38 -0500 +MIME-Version: 1.0 +Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 +Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit +Message-Id: <20021127230138.HBVV27245.tomts19-srv.bellnexxia.net@[209.226.175.18]> +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: GCL on windows. +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Tim, + +On Wed, 27 Nov 2002 16:29:38 -0500 you wrote: + +> ... +> > [Bill] +> > The biggest difficulty that I see in MinGW is the lack +> > of the X-windows environment which is (more or less) +> > unique to Unix (and part of Cygwin). Microsoft Windows +> > itself *is* a windows environment but very different +> > from X-windows. So porting Unix graphical applications to +> > Microsoft Windows is currently rather difficult. But their +> > are some people working on methods to make this easier in +> > the future. +> > +> > After several tests and trials, I think MinGW/Msys (rather +> > than Cygwin) is the best choice for building the Windows +> > version of Axiom. +> +> Ok. I'll defer to whatever choice you find appropriate. +> The graphics portion of Axiom currently amounts to the +> hypertex browser and the drawing software. The interpreter +> doesn't really depend on anything since it was developed +> to run on a text-only mainframe. Getting interpsys and +> the algebra running is the first goal. +> + +Yes, of course. + +> The windows version of Axiom used to use IBM's +> TexExplorer software but that was not released. I'll +> cruise around the web for some combination of tex, +> graphics & windows software. We can't be the first +> people to need an open-source version of this. +> + +Well we have been discussing TeXmacs as a graphical +interface, right? TeXmacs does not currently run in +native windows but a version is planned. A user interested +in a graphical tex front-end to Axiom running on a PC could +still install Cygwin and run TeXmacs to interface with +Axiom running in windows native mode. + +Currently, as I understand it, TeXmacs has not "off-the- +shelf" facility to display graphical output from tools +such as GNUplot, etc. But I have seen this discussed +on the TeXmacs developer list. + +> Magnus has a tcl/tk front end. I believe that tcl/tk +> software will run on windows. Do you know if this is +> true? + +Yes. But these tools are a little "dated". If changes +are needed to Axiom then we might consider other +alternatives. I can check around and let you know what +I find. + +If our goal is just to support the existing Axiom graphics +capabilities in a platform independent way, then perhaps +simply re-coding that part of Axiom to interface with an +open source graphics package is all that would be needed. + +> Perhaps we can steal the front-end as it is a stand-alone +> piece of software. +> + +What are your current thoughts about TeXmacs? Personally +I still think it is a good match for Axiom and I would be +prepared to devote some effort to helping to extended +TeXmacs capabilities where these would better meet the +requirements of Axiom. + +I think it would be good to avoid having to develop an +Axiom specific front-end (even if it is "borrowed" from +some other open source package), if at all possible. + +Regards, +Bill Page. + + + + +From daly@idsi.net Wed Nov 27 18:26:40 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18HBZn-0006gV-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 18:26:39 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18HBZk-0006cM-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 18:26:38 -0500 +Received: from hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.22]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18HBZk-0006cD-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 18:26:36 -0500 +Received: from dialup-65.58.184.146.dial1.stamford1.level3.net ([65.58.184.146] helo=localhost.localdomain) + by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) + id 18HBZi-0006Wr-00; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 15:26:35 -0800 +Received: (from root@localhost) + by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.6) id gARNN1w26766; + Wed, 27 Nov 2002 18:23:01 -0500 +Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 18:23:01 -0500 +Message-Id: <200211272323.gARNN1w26766@localhost.localdomain> +From: root +To: bill.page1@sympatico.ca +CC: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Reply-to: daly@idsi.net +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Windows front end +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +> Bill Page wrote: +> +> ...(snip)... +> +> Well we have been discussing TeXmacs as a graphical +> interface, right? TeXmacs does not currently run in +> native windows but a version is planned. A user interested +> in a graphical tex front-end to Axiom running on a PC could +> still install Cygwin and run TeXmacs to interface with +> Axiom running in windows native mode. +> +> Currently, as I understand it, TeXmacs has not "off-the- +> shelf" facility to display graphical output from tools +> such as GNUplot, etc. But I have seen this discussed +> on the TeXmacs developer list. +> +> > Magnus has a tcl/tk front end. I believe that tcl/tk +> > software will run on windows. Do you know if this is +> > true? +> +> Yes. But these tools are a little "dated". If changes +> are needed to Axiom then we might consider other +> alternatives. I can check around and let you know what +> I find. +> +> If our goal is just to support the existing Axiom graphics +> capabilities in a platform independent way, then perhaps +> simply re-coding that part of Axiom to interface with an +> open source graphics package is all that would be needed. +> +> > Perhaps we can steal the front-end as it is a stand-alone +> > piece of software. +> +> What are your current thoughts about TeXmacs? Personally +> I still think it is a good match for Axiom and I would be +> prepared to devote some effort to helping to extended +> TeXmacs capabilities where these would better meet the +> requirements of Axiom. +> +> I think it would be good to avoid having to develop an +> Axiom specific front-end (even if it is "borrowed" from +> some other open source package), if at all possible. + +TeXmacs is fine as a front-end. I'm all in favor of it. +However, it doesn't run on Windows at the moment and we're +gonna take flak from the users who are conditioned to the +TeXexplorer front-end. Helping TeXmacs run on Windows and +work with Axiom is certainly a worthwhile goal. + +I'm a command-line oriented person and won't use a GUI even +if it exists nor do I run Windows so I defer to your decisions +in this area. Choose a direction, give it a try and follow your +whims. I'll do what I can to help. + +Tim + + + + + + + +From camm@enhanced.com Wed Nov 27 20:41:39 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18HDgQ-0006f2-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 20:41:38 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18HDgM-0006QX-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 20:41:36 -0500 +Received: from h-66-134-96-17.phlapafg.covad.net ([66.134.96.17] helo=intech19.enhanced.com) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18HDgK-0006Kz-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 20:41:32 -0500 +Received: from camm by intech19.enhanced.com with local (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) + id 18HDg0-00057b-00; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 20:41:12 -0500 +To: daly@idsi.net +Cc: stannous@cisco.com, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Re: Axiom +References: <200211272229.gARMTMw26701@localhost.localdomain> +From: Camm Maguire +Date: 27 Nov 2002 20:41:12 -0500 +In-Reply-To: root's message of "Wed, 27 Nov 2002 17:29:22 -0500" +Message-ID: <54fztmii87.fsf@intech19.enhanced.com> +Lines: 41 +X-Mailer: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.7 +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Greetings! I just saw this go by, and gave it a try myself. +obj/linux/bin/bootsys appeared to be created successfully. This also +appeared to be the final result of the build. + +Does this accurately reflect the current status? + +Take care, + +root writes: + +> I've sent a request to have an account created for you. +> You'll hear back about it as soon as the sysadmin does it. +> +> Anonymous access uses the username "anonymous", with an empty +> password. "anonymous" only has read access. So, you can tell your +> users to: +> +> cvs -d:pserver:anonymous@axiom.tenkan.org:/home/cvs login +> (empty password) +> cvs -d:pserver:anonymous@axiom.tenkan.org:/home/cvs co axiom +> +> cd axiom/new/new +> make +> +> Let me know what fails. +> +> Tim +> +> +> +> _______________________________________________ +> Axiom-developer mailing list +> Axiom-developer@nongnu.org +> http://mail.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/axiom-developer +> +> + +-- +Camm Maguire camm@enhanced.com +========================================================================== +"The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens." -- Baha'u'llah + + + +From daly@idsi.net Wed Nov 27 21:12:44 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18HEAW-0004tJ-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 21:12:44 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18HEAS-0004iQ-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 21:12:43 -0500 +Received: from hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.22]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18HEAS-0004ha-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 21:12:40 -0500 +Received: from dialup-65.58.184.146.dial1.stamford1.level3.net ([65.58.184.146] helo=localhost.localdomain) + by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) + id 18HEAQ-0000Hq-00; Wed, 27 Nov 2002 18:12:38 -0800 +Received: (from root@localhost) + by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.6) id gAS296026868; + Wed, 27 Nov 2002 21:09:06 -0500 +Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 21:09:06 -0500 +Message-Id: <200211280209.gAS296026868@localhost.localdomain> +From: root +To: camm@enhanced.com +CC: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Reply-to: daly@idsi.net +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Layers +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Yes, in the current state of the CVS the end result of the build +process is to create bootsys. + +Axiom is built from layers, more for historical reasons than by +design. + +Layer 0 is common lisp. Certain extensions are used and these +exist in libspad.a so each common lisp needs to be extended +with these extras. + +Thus building layer 0 consists of + (1) building noweb so we can parse pamphlet files + (2) building libspad.a + (3) building common lisp, resulting in obj/linux/bin/lisp + +Layer 1 is bootsys. Axiom is partially written in common lisp and +partially written in a syntactic-sugar language called boot. The +boot translator reads boot files and generates common lisp. +(Actually, MacLisp + Lisp/370 + Lisp/VM + common lisp but lets +not go there). + +The boot translator (in src/boot) is written in boot and thus needs +a boot translator to generate a boot translator. For this purpose +we "cache" the generated lisp code from the previous system and +use it to generate a new copy of the translator. Modifications to +the boot translator are not for the weak of heart. + +The src/boot build uses obj/linux/bin/lisp to compile the cached +lisp code. This code is then loaded into a clean copy of lisp +and saved as obj/linux/bin/bootsys. + +Layer 2 is depsys. The rest of the system depends on dozens of +macros and functions (maclisp-in-common-lisp, etc). Depsys is +a "compile environment" for all other system files. + +The goal of layer 2 is to generate obj/linux/bin/depsys. + +Layer 3 is interpsys. Interpsys is the Axiom interpreter which +is the code layer you talk to at the Axiom command-line prompt. +Interpsys contains hundreds of files and many layers of functionality. + +The goal of layer 3 is to generate mnt/linux/bin/interpsys. + +Layer 4 is the compiler layer. Parts of this layer have been split out +of the distribution and is now run as a separate project and website. +There are 2 compilers, the "spad" compiler and the "aldor" +compiler. They have a compatible syntax (within the constraints of +their design goals as the spad compiler assumes the interpreter but +the aldor compiler cannot). Either compiler can be used. We use both. +The aldor compiler is available at www.aldor.org. The spad compiler +is built in to the interpsys layer. + +Layer 5 is the compiled algebra code. The algebra code goes thru +its own dance in order to build up the type towers. The result of +this process is a directory of library code and a couple of +daase ("database", shortened because I did a port to DOS once, +a long time ago) files which contain information needed to look +things up. + +Layer 6 is the "utilities", like the graphics and hypertex front +end code. + +Layer 7 is the sman facility that runs the whole show. + +Eight layers in all, assuming you don't want to argue about what +is and is not a layer. I'm working on layer 2 as we speak. + +Tim + + + + +From miked@nag.co.uk Thu Nov 28 05:14:12 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18HLgS-0007dz-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 28 Nov 2002 05:14:12 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18HLgQ-0007de-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 28 Nov 2002 05:14:11 -0500 +Received: from mail22.messagelabs.com ([193.109.255.115]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18HLgP-0007dO-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 28 Nov 2002 05:14:09 -0500 +X-VirusChecked: Checked +X-Env-Sender: miked@nag.co.uk +X-Msg-Ref: server-6.tower-22.messagelabs.com!1038478446!6013 +Received: (qmail 24752 invoked from network); 28 Nov 2002 10:14:06 -0000 +Received: from smtp-3.star.net.uk (212.125.75.72) + by server-6.tower-22.messagelabs.com with SMTP; 28 Nov 2002 10:14:06 -0000 +Received: (qmail 13346 invoked from network); 28 Nov 2002 10:14:05 -0000 +Received: from nagmx1.nag.co.uk (HELO nag.co.uk) (62.231.145.242) + by smtp-3.star.net.uk with SMTP; 28 Nov 2002 10:14:05 -0000 +Received: from brackley.nag.co.uk (brackley.nag.co.uk [192.156.217.21]) + by nag.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA11651; + Thu, 28 Nov 2002 10:13:56 GMT +Received: from nag.co.uk (IDENT:root@trowbridge.nag.co.uk [192.156.217.69]) + by brackley.nag.co.uk (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id gASAEZJ11110; + Thu, 28 Nov 2002 10:14:45 GMT + (envelope-from miked@nag.co.uk) +Received: (from miked@localhost) + by nag.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA13241; + Thu, 28 Nov 2002 10:13:15 GMT +Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 10:13:15 +0000 +From: Mike Dewar +To: root +Cc: bill.page1@sympatico.ca, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Windows front end +Message-ID: <20021128101315.A13121@nag.co.uk> +References: <200211272323.gARNN1w26766@localhost.localdomain> +Mime-Version: 1.0 +Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii +X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i +In-Reply-To: <200211272323.gARNN1w26766@localhost.localdomain>; from daly@idsi.net on Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 06:23:01PM -0500 +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Hi Guys, + +You're probably aware of this but, just in case, it may help for me to +point out some of the differences between the Unix and Windows system. + +1. Graphics: On Unix this is done with a combination of bespoke Axiom +data structures and some pretty convoluted X-Windows code. On Windows +we added facilities to create OpenInventor data structures (OpenInventor +is the basis for VRML - the virtual reality markup language). The +Inventor geometries were then exported to a little application we wrote +based on the standard SceneViewer application you get with many +OpenInventor toolkits. The results were definitely superior to the Unix +version. + +NAG has a visualisation system based on Open Inventor called Iris +Explorer and some of the reasons for going down this route were product +integration and leveraging our internal expertise. However since VRML +is a well-defined standard it also made Axiom more open. The +longer-term plan was to do the same on Unix and drop the old Axiom +rendering stuff completely but sadly we never got to do this. + +I wouldn't try porting the X-based graphics to Windows but would either +use the OpenInventor stuff and one of the free VRML viewers or use the +same approach with a different standard format. For 3D graphics the OI +stuff worked pretty-much out-of-the-box, we just added menus for axes, +scales etc. For 2D plots we had to add some extra code but that wasn't +too hard. + +2. The Browser: This is the part of HyperTex which allows you to look up +domains, categories, operations etc. as opposed to the whole HyperTex +environment. For the Windows version we pushed a lot of the code which +was in the HyperTex application or used Unix scripts into either the +interpreter (via boot code) or in some cases into the underlying Lisp (I +added a grep function based on some existing NAG code for example). +Incidentally this kind of thing will probably give you problems when you +try using different lisps ... + +The upshot of this is that all you require from the front end is a +simple forms interface and everything else can be done by the +interpreter, all the old stuff using scripts and C code is obsolete. + +3. The Documentation: The documentation for the Windows system was +translated from the Unix version so that it would work inside +TechExplorer (and in some cases we also added code to TechExplorer to +support particular features). In most cases this was done by a first +pass using sed and then some tidying up via emacs macros, hand edits +etc. during the proof-reading stage. + +Again there was a long-term plan which was to migrate the HyperTex docs +to SGML which was then our standard documentation format (now it would +be XML) and then generate HyperTex, TechExplorer TeX, vanilla LaTeX as +needed. + + +So to summarise, its really not necessary to have an X environment under +Windows and, while I don't know anything about TeXmacs, it ought to be +sufficient for your needs if it supports forms. You will need a +different graphics environment but we found that relatively +straightforward, largely because the object-oriented nature of Inventor +made it easy to model the data structures in Axiom. + +Cheers, Mike. + +On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 06:23:01PM -0500, Tim Daly wrote: +> +> > Bill Page wrote: +> > +> > ...(snip)... +> > +> > Well we have been discussing TeXmacs as a graphical +> > interface, right? TeXmacs does not currently run in +> > native windows but a version is planned. A user interested +> > in a graphical tex front-end to Axiom running on a PC could +> > still install Cygwin and run TeXmacs to interface with +> > Axiom running in windows native mode. +> > +> > Currently, as I understand it, TeXmacs has not "off-the- +> > shelf" facility to display graphical output from tools +> > such as GNUplot, etc. But I have seen this discussed +> > on the TeXmacs developer list. +> > +> > > Magnus has a tcl/tk front end. I believe that tcl/tk +> > > software will run on windows. Do you know if this is +> > > true? +> > +> > Yes. But these tools are a little "dated". If changes +> > are needed to Axiom then we might consider other +> > alternatives. I can check around and let you know what +> > I find. +> > +> > If our goal is just to support the existing Axiom graphics +> > capabilities in a platform independent way, then perhaps +> > simply re-coding that part of Axiom to interface with an +> > open source graphics package is all that would be needed. +> > +> > > Perhaps we can steal the front-end as it is a stand-alone +> > > piece of software. +> > +> > What are your current thoughts about TeXmacs? Personally +> > I still think it is a good match for Axiom and I would be +> > prepared to devote some effort to helping to extended +> > TeXmacs capabilities where these would better meet the +> > requirements of Axiom. +> > +> > I think it would be good to avoid having to develop an +> > Axiom specific front-end (even if it is "borrowed" from +> > some other open source package), if at all possible. +> +> TeXmacs is fine as a front-end. I'm all in favor of it. +> However, it doesn't run on Windows at the moment and we're +> gonna take flak from the users who are conditioned to the +> TeXexplorer front-end. Helping TeXmacs run on Windows and +> work with Axiom is certainly a worthwhile goal. +> +> I'm a command-line oriented person and won't use a GUI even +> if it exists nor do I run Windows so I defer to your decisions +> in this area. Choose a direction, give it a try and follow your +> whims. I'll do what I can to help. +> +> Tim +> +> +> +> +> +> +> _______________________________________________ +> Axiom-developer mailing list +> Axiom-developer@nongnu.org +> http://mail.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/axiom-developer +> +> _____________________________________________________________________ +> This message has been checked for all known viruses by Star Internet +> delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Scanning Service. For further +> information visit http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp or alternatively call +> Star Internet for details on the Virus Scanning Service. + +_____________________________________________________________________ +This message has been checked for all known viruses by Star Internet +delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Scanning Service. For further +information visit http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp or alternatively call +Star Internet for details on the Virus Scanning Service. + + + +From daly@idsi.net Thu Nov 28 10:42:28 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18HQo8-0002GO-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 28 Nov 2002 10:42:28 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18HQkn-0001TY-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 28 Nov 2002 10:39:08 -0500 +Received: from avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.50]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18HQkm-0001Pg-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 28 Nov 2002 10:39:00 -0500 +Received: from dialup-65.59.79.44.dial1.stamford1.level3.net ([65.59.79.44] helo=localhost.localdomain) + by avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) + id 18HQkf-0005qI-00; Thu, 28 Nov 2002 07:38:53 -0800 +Received: (from root@localhost) + by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.6) id gASFZK227665; + Thu, 28 Nov 2002 10:35:20 -0500 +Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 10:35:20 -0500 +Message-Id: <200211281535.gASFZK227665@localhost.localdomain> +From: root +To: miked@nag.co.uk +CC: daly@idsi.net, bill.page1@sympatico.ca, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Windows front end +Reply-to: daly@idsi.net +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + + +> Mike Dewar wrote: +> +> You're probably aware of this but, just in case, it may help for me to +> point out some of the differences between the Unix and Windows system. + +Actually, I'm unaware of what lies ahead as I'm working on the system +layer by layer. I expect life to get much harder once I get out of +the lisp layers. The first announced version is likely to only work +as a command-line interpreter environment. The cross-platform issues +for the graphics and browser are going to be painful, I suspect. + +> 1. Graphics: On Unix this is done with a combination of bespoke Axiom +> data structures and some pretty convoluted X-Windows code. On Windows +> we added facilities to create OpenInventor data structures (OpenInventor +> is the basis for VRML - the virtual reality markup language). The +> Inventor geometries were then exported to a little application we wrote +> based on the standard SceneViewer application you get with many +> OpenInventor toolkits. The results were definitely superior to the Unix +> version. + +Is the "little application" in the code we have? If not, would NAG +be willing to share it? + +> NAG has a visualisation system based on Open Inventor called Iris +> Explorer and some of the reasons for going down this route were product +> integration and leveraging our internal expertise. However since VRML +> is a well-defined standard it also made Axiom more open. The +> longer-term plan was to do the same on Unix and drop the old Axiom +> rendering stuff completely but sadly we never got to do this. + +I'm happy to hear that work was done to make the graphics more open. +One of the stated goals on the homepage is to "give away" the graphics. +I was planning to enhance the abilities of some other open source +product (like GNUPlot) with the facilities available in Axiom. That +way they gain with new function and we gain because we don't have to +support the graphics any more. + +The graphics facility is useful and necessary but the expertise needed +to do it right is a whole other field of research. Scott Morrison did +the graphics and he's no longer following computer algebra. + +If you happen to have some useful web and/or book references I'd +appreciate it if you mention them to the group. + +I hope to define the input and output formats of the interpreter so +that others can use it. Ideally there would be 3 "pairs" of connections: + +Stdin, Stdout for the interpreter/console +Stdin, Stdout for ethernet ports so you can reach the interpreter + from network based code (and even the browser/graphics applications) +Stdin, Stdout "covers" for linked programs on the same system + +If we do that cleanly then all of the other things will just be +stand-alone applications that can communicate with the Axiom interpreter. +That way we can also leverage them for Aldor. + +> I wouldn't try porting the X-based graphics to Windows but would either +> use the OpenInventor stuff and one of the free VRML viewers or use the +> same approach with a different standard format. For 3D graphics the OI +> stuff worked pretty-much out-of-the-box, we just added menus for axes, +> scales etc. For 2D plots we had to add some extra code but that wasn't +> too hard. + +I'll take that advice. Do you happen to know of compatible VRML viewers +that work on both Windows and Unix? + +> 2. The Browser: This is the part of HyperTex which allows you to look up +> domains, categories, operations etc. as opposed to the whole HyperTex +> environment. For the Windows version we pushed a lot of the code which +> was in the HyperTex application or used Unix scripts into either the +> interpreter (via boot code) or in some cases into the underlying Lisp (I +> added a grep function based on some existing NAG code for example). +> Incidentally this kind of thing will probably give you problems when you +> try using different lisps ... + +The browser was a piece of the system that was leading edge +for its time (the web and browsers didn't exist yet). The stated +plan is to "give away" the browser. In this case what that implies +is rewriting the system so it uses a real browser instead of our +home-grown one. + +Surely you didn't write lisp that runs on only one platform?! Sigh. +Ah, well, porting is my life :-) I'm gonna be a sherpa when I grow up. +NAG shoulda hired me when they had the chance. I AM glad that you +pushed the scripts and other cruft into lisp. + +> The upshot of this is that all you require from the front end is a +> simple forms interface and everything else can be done by the +> interpreter, all the old stuff using scripts and C code is obsolete. + +This is good news. + +> 3. The Documentation: The documentation for the Windows system was +> translated from the Unix version so that it would work inside +> TechExplorer (and in some cases we also added code to TechExplorer to +> support particular features). In most cases this was done by a first +> pass using sed and then some tidying up via emacs macros, hand edits +> etc. during the proof-reading stage. + +In this world the docs are supposed to be in noweb pamphlets from +which we can generate LaTeX. Hopefully the front-end will handle the +cross-platform issues so we don't have to. + +> Again there was a long-term plan which was to migrate the HyperTex docs +> to SGML which was then our standard documentation format (now it would +> be XML) and then generate HyperTex, TechExplorer TeX, vanilla LaTeX as +> needed. + +For the browser stuff there is a noweb to html conversion function. +How well that will handle all of our nonsense remains to be seen. +The fact that noweb pamphlets are "pre-final-format" allows us to +be flexible of our target choices and is one of the reasons I chose it. +Sometimes we want TeX, sometimes HTML and sometimes MathML or XML. +Noweb is designed to allow that. + +> So to summarise, its really not necessary to have an X environment under +> Windows and, while I don't know anything about TeXmacs, it ought to be +> sufficient for your needs if it supports forms. You will need a +> different graphics environment but we found that relatively +> straightforward, largely because the object-oriented nature of Inventor +> made it easy to model the data structures in Axiom. + +OpenInventor, eh? Sigh, yet another thing to learn. TeXmacs has +potential but does not currently run on Windows. If it did it would +solve a fair number of issues. + +As I said earlier, Axiom is likely to make its first appearance as +a command-line interpreter (no doubt causing us to take some flak). +Rebuilding the rest of the tools is going to be an exercise in +creativity. It will have the unfortunate side-effect that I'll +have to learn Windows :-) + +I do appreciate the advice and guidance. It's been years since I've +seen this code. + +Tim + + + +From bill.page1@sympatico.ca Thu Nov 28 11:25:12 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18HRTU-0007Bg-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 28 Nov 2002 11:25:12 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18HRTR-00072p-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 28 Nov 2002 11:25:11 -0500 +Received: from tomts21-srv.bellnexxia.net ([209.226.175.183]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18HRTQ-00070X-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 28 Nov 2002 11:25:08 -0500 +Received: from [209.226.175.18] by tomts21-srv.bellnexxia.net + (InterMail vM.5.01.04.19 201-253-122-122-119-20020516) with SMTP + id <20021128162507.IFDS981.tomts21-srv.bellnexxia.net@[209.226.175.18]>; + Thu, 28 Nov 2002 11:25:07 -0500 +From: Bill Page +Organization: Daneliuk & Page +To: , +CC: , +Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 11:25:07 -0500 +MIME-Version: 1.0 +Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 +Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit +Message-Id: <20021128162507.IFDS981.tomts21-srv.bellnexxia.net@[209.226.175.18]> +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: Windows front end +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Tim, + +On Thu, 28 Nov 2002 10:35:20 -0500 you wrote: +> ... +> OpenInventor, eh? Sigh, yet another thing to learn. +> TeXmacs has potential but does not currently run on +> Windows. If it did it would solve a fair number of +> issues. +> ... + +Actually, TeXmacs *does* run on Windows. The only drawback +is that it requires that the user install at least a +minimal Cygwin environment plus the XFree86 x-server. +What is means in real terms is adding a Cygwin-specific +library (dll) which provides most of the standard Linux +api. Running the x-server opens a new Windows window that +looks (for the most part) just like Linux minus the fancy +window manager (KDE or whatever). TeXmacs runs in this +window and can interact with other windows applications. + +The installation is a bit complex since it is not most +people's intention to only install a minimal x-server +environment. But I think I could package it fairly well. +In addition to this added complexity, the main drawback +is a sacrifice of performance compared to native windows +applications. It seems that the Cygwin unix emulation is +not particularly efficient. + +Regards, +Bill Page. + + + + + +From daly@idsi.net Thu Nov 28 11:33:51 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18HRbr-000877-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 28 Nov 2002 11:33:51 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18HRbp-00086v-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 28 Nov 2002 11:33:50 -0500 +Received: from mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.48]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18HRbp-00086r-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 28 Nov 2002 11:33:49 -0500 +Received: from dialup-65.59.79.44.dial1.stamford1.level3.net ([65.59.79.44] helo=localhost.localdomain) + by mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) + id 18HRbn-0000VU-00; Thu, 28 Nov 2002 08:33:47 -0800 +Received: (from root@localhost) + by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.6) id gASGUCs27738; + Thu, 28 Nov 2002 11:30:12 -0500 +Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 11:30:12 -0500 +Message-Id: <200211281630.gASGUCs27738@localhost.localdomain> +From: root +To: bill.page1@sympatico.ca +CC: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Windows and TeXmacs +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +I agree that you can run TeXmacs on a Windows box using +the techniques you've outlined and that is a possible +"first step". By the phrase "TeXmacs doesn't run on Windows" +I was implying that it runs using the native Windows API. + +Packaging up the necessary pieces in a zip file so they could +be unzipped into place and appear as a "complete application" +would be a useful thing to do. At least we would know what +pieces are necessary to get a minimally runnable system. + +What do you feel are the issues to get it to run in a Mingw +environment? + +Tim + + + +From bill.page1@sympatico.ca Thu Nov 28 12:15:01 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18HSFg-00083r-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 28 Nov 2002 12:15:00 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18HSFf-00082y-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 28 Nov 2002 12:15:00 -0500 +Received: from tomts9.bellnexxia.net ([209.226.175.53] helo=tomts9-srv.bellnexxia.net) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18HSFe-00082u-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 28 Nov 2002 12:14:58 -0500 +Received: from [209.226.175.18] by tomts9-srv.bellnexxia.net + (InterMail vM.5.01.04.19 201-253-122-122-119-20020516) with SMTP + id <20021128171457.BOJD4359.tomts9-srv.bellnexxia.net@[209.226.175.18]>; + Thu, 28 Nov 2002 12:14:57 -0500 +From: Bill Page +Organization: Daneliuk & Page +To: root +CC: , +Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 12:14:57 -0500 +MIME-Version: 1.0 +Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 +Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit +Message-Id: <20021128171457.BOJD4359.tomts9-srv.bellnexxia.net@[209.226.175.18]> +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: Windows and TeXmacs +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Tim, + +> Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 11:30:12 -0500 +> ... +> What do you feel are the issues to get it [TeXmacs] to +> run in a Mingw environment? +> + +The MinGW environment is just native windows. It has no +special unix emulation layer. To get TeXmacs to compile +under MinGW and run under Windows requires (at least) +some replacement for the x11 library. There does exist +an open source preliminary version of such a replacement +library that interfaces directly with the Windows api +(no x-windows necessary). I have discussed it briefly +with another developer who has used it successfully (with +a few changes/additions). This might be an option for +TeXmacs. David Allouche (texmacs developer) has done a +review of the other requirements for TeXmacs on windows +and (I believe) considers such a port to Windows possible. +However I do not think it is a priority for now. + +I have only done some rather unsophisticated C programming +in Windows so I do not have any feeling at all about how +long it might take me (working basically from scratch) to +make such a change. My preference would be for me to +contribute to the effort at some higher level or a small +and externally directed part of it. + +Regards, +Bill Page. + + + + +From daly@idsi.net Thu Nov 28 12:23:58 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18HSOK-0008Hu-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 28 Nov 2002 12:23:56 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18HSOC-0007nw-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 28 Nov 2002 12:23:52 -0500 +Received: from falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.74]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18HSOB-0007la-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 28 Nov 2002 12:23:47 -0500 +Received: from dialup-65.59.79.44.dial1.stamford1.level3.net ([65.59.79.44] helo=localhost.localdomain) + by falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) + id 18HSO2-0003Vo-00; Thu, 28 Nov 2002 09:23:39 -0800 +Received: (from root@localhost) + by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.6) id gASHK6O27755; + Thu, 28 Nov 2002 12:20:06 -0500 +Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 12:20:06 -0500 +Message-Id: <200211281720.gASHK6O27755@localhost.localdomain> +From: root +To: stannous@cisco.com, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +CC: daly@idsi.net +Reply-to: daly@idsi.net +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: FreeBSD...Re: Axiom +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Sam, + +The system is trying to extract the platform specific Makefile +from the top level Makefile.pamphlet. To see what is happening +notice that there is a number associated with the line just +before the failure. In this case, the number is "2". + +You can see that make is still in the home directory so the +Makefile that is being executed is the top level Makefile. +Edit this Makefile and search for the string "echo 2" and you will +find the last echo line that was successfully executed. + +Immediately after that line comes the line: + @ ${SPADBIN}/notangle -t8 -RMakefile.${SYS} Makefile.pamphlet >Makefile.${SYS} + +This is calling notangle from the mnt/linux/bin subdirectory, asking +notangle to expand the "root" Makefile.Linux. This is the line that +failed (notangle is a shell script that calls markup). + +Therefore, the noweb subsystem must not be installed correctly. + +Noweb is built once and only once. Subsequent makes will not +rebuild it if it exists. + +In order to fix your problem you need to type: + + make clean + make + +The "make clean" will destroy the noweb installation. +The "make" will rebuild it and should work. + +Let me know if this fails. + +Tim + + + +From daly@idsi.net Thu Nov 28 13:14:36 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18HTBL-0001u7-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 28 Nov 2002 13:14:35 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18HTBJ-0001tp-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 28 Nov 2002 13:14:34 -0500 +Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.122]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18HTBJ-0001tj-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 28 Nov 2002 13:14:33 -0500 +Received: from dialup-65.59.79.44.dial1.stamford1.level3.net ([65.59.79.44] helo=localhost.localdomain) + by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) + id 18HTB8-0002vv-00; Thu, 28 Nov 2002 10:14:23 -0800 +Received: (from root@localhost) + by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.6) id gASIAow27774; + Thu, 28 Nov 2002 13:10:50 -0500 +Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 13:10:50 -0500 +Message-Id: <200211281810.gASIAow27774@localhost.localdomain> +From: root +To: stannous@cisco.com, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Reply-to: daly@idsi.net +Subject: [Axiom-developer] FreeBSD...Re: Axiom +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Another subtle issue has occurred to me. + +You mentioned that you actually changed the top level Makefile.pamphlet +Normally if you change the top level Makefile.pamphlet the system will +NOT try to rebuild it automatically. You have to do it by hand by +typing: + +export PATH=/spad/mnt/linux/bin:$PATH +export SPAD=/spad/mnt/linux +document Makefile + +There is a subtle catch-22 you should be aware of. These instructions +will NOT work in a clean system since noweb does not yet exist. It +might or might not be related to your problem but I'll explain it +anyway so it is documented. + +If you don't have noweb you have to create it first. +Lets assume your install path is /spad and you're using linux +as your platform: + +(1) cd /spad +(2) make SPAD=/spad/mnt/linux start + +This will make noweb and install it in the /spad subtree. +Axiom is designed to never write outside its subtree. + +Tim + + + + + + + + +From bill.page1@sympatico.ca Thu Nov 28 13:38:13 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18HTYD-0008Lx-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 28 Nov 2002 13:38:13 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18HTYB-0008Li-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 28 Nov 2002 13:38:12 -0500 +Received: from tomts25.bellnexxia.net ([209.226.175.188] helo=tomts25-srv.bellnexxia.net) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18HTYB-0008Jv-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 28 Nov 2002 13:38:11 -0500 +Received: from [209.226.175.18] by tomts25-srv.bellnexxia.net + (InterMail vM.5.01.04.19 201-253-122-122-119-20020516) with SMTP + id <20021128183809.OSTE1456.tomts25-srv.bellnexxia.net@[209.226.175.18]>; + Thu, 28 Nov 2002 13:38:09 -0500 +From: Bill Page +Organization: Daneliuk & Page +To: ,, +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] FreeBSD...Re: Axiom +Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 13:38:09 -0500 +MIME-Version: 1.0 +Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 +Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit +Message-Id: <20021128183809.OSTE1456.tomts25-srv.bellnexxia.net@[209.226.175.18]> +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Tim, + +There is another problem, which I have so far neglected +to mention in our conversations, that occurs if you +attempt to use a different install path than + + /home/axiomgnu/new + +There are several places in the current pamphlet files +where this directory name is hard coded and does not +depend on the environment variables. In order to get it +to compile on my system, I had to create this directory. +After downloading the files from cvs at tenkan I also +had to fix the problem of the /new/new/ path so that the +contents and sub-directoys of + + .../axiom/new/new + +ended up in + + /home/axiomgnu/new + +( e.g. mv /whereever/axiom/new/new /home/axiom ) + +Then on my Linux box, at least the make process goes +right through to bootsys. + +At least some of the places that the hardcoding occurs +is in the LaTex style file names. You might want to do +a + + find ... | grep '/home/axiomgnu' + +command to locate all of these (and a few others) I think. + +Let me if you would like help with this. + +Also, in the fix for the use of strip in windows systems, +I think a better solution than the one I implemented would +be to introduce a new environment variable for the extension +that is automatically assigned by gcc under Windows (both +Cygwin and Msys). Say $EXE, which would be set to null +in the platform specific files for unix installations and +set to ".exe" for Windows. Then whereever strip x occurs +in the make files, we would need to write strip x${EXE}. + +Shall I make this change in what I have now and upload it +to tenkan? + +Regards, +Bill Page. +> +> From: root +> Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 13:10:50 -0500 +> To: stannous@cisco.com, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +> Subject: [Axiom-developer] FreeBSD...Re: Axiom +> +> Another subtle issue has occurred to me. +> +> You mentioned that you actually changed the top level Makefile.pamphlet +> Normally if you change the top level Makefile.pamphlet the system will +> NOT try to rebuild it automatically. You have to do it by hand by +> typing: +> +> export PATH=/spad/mnt/linux/bin:$PATH +> export SPAD=/spad/mnt/linux +> document Makefile +> +> There is a subtle catch-22 you should be aware of. These instructions +> will NOT work in a clean system since noweb does not yet exist. It +> might or might not be related to your problem but I'll explain it +> anyway so it is documented. +> +> If you don't have noweb you have to create it first. +> Lets assume your install path is /spad and you're using linux +> as your platform: +> +> (1) cd /spad +> (2) make SPAD=/spad/mnt/linux start +> +> This will make noweb and install it in the /spad subtree. +> Axiom is designed to never write outside its subtree. +> +> Tim +> +> +> +> +> +> +> +> _______________________________________________ +> Axiom-developer mailing list +> Axiom-developer@nongnu.org +> http://mail.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/axiom-developer +> + + + + +From daly@idsi.net Thu Nov 28 21:20:02 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18Hal7-0000bx-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 28 Nov 2002 21:20:01 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18Hal5-0000a7-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 28 Nov 2002 21:20:00 -0500 +Received: from grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.46]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18Hal5-0000Zr-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Thu, 28 Nov 2002 21:19:59 -0500 +Received: from dialup-63.215.233.16.dial1.stamford1.level3.net ([63.215.233.16] helo=localhost.localdomain) + by grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) + id 18Hal3-0006kJ-00; Thu, 28 Nov 2002 18:19:57 -0800 +Received: (from root@localhost) + by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.6) id gAT2GLK28130; + Thu, 28 Nov 2002 21:16:21 -0500 +Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 21:16:21 -0500 +Message-Id: <200211290216.gAT2GLK28130@localhost.localdomain> +From: root +To: bill.page1@sympatico.ca +CC: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Reply-to: daly@idsi.net +Subject: [Axiom-developer] SPAD, strip and dev/null +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +Bill, + +I did a complete walk of the files I uploaded. There are +hardcoded paths in src/scripts/boxup, src/scripts/mytangle, +and src/scripts/myweave. These functions are only used by +me and won't be shipped. I'll remove them from the final +distribution but I'm actively using them for various +purposes during the construction. As far as I know there +are no other uses for boxup, mytangle and myweave. + +There are two uses of "/home/axiomgnu/new" in the root +Makefile.pamphlet which need to be changed. I used to +compute these dynamically in the distant past but I have +to remember the magic. All you should have to do is set +a shell variable SPAD to the correct path and everything +should work. This will also be fixed before it gets into +the final distribution on savannah. + +Make sure you're searching for "/home/axiomgnu" in a clean +distribution. GCL and noweb "capture" the path in their +configure scripts but that should all go away when you do +a make clean. + +About the strip & /dev/null.... +I'm going to redo that change as it uses /tmp/null instead +and this violates the rule that Axiom never writes outside +its own source tree. I need to use ${TMP}/null instead. +I'll also make the EXE change you suggested. + +Tim + + + +From miked@nag.co.uk Fri Nov 29 05:25:24 2002 +Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18HiKq-0004HT-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Fri, 29 Nov 2002 05:25:24 -0500 +Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) + id 18HiKn-0004HG-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Fri, 29 Nov 2002 05:25:23 -0500 +Received: from mail22.messagelabs.com ([193.109.255.115]) + by monty-python.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.10) + id 18HiKn-0004HC-00 + for axiom-developer@nongnu.org; Fri, 29 Nov 2002 05:25:21 -0500 +X-VirusChecked: Checked +X-Env-Sender: miked@nag.co.uk +X-Msg-Ref: server-15.tower-22.messagelabs.com!1038565507!8413 +Received: (qmail 14343 invoked from network); 29 Nov 2002 10:25:07 -0000 +Received: from softdnserror (HELO smtp-5.star.net.uk) (212.125.75.74) + by server-15.tower-22.messagelabs.com with SMTP; 29 Nov 2002 10:25:07 -0000 +Received: (qmail 10664 invoked from network); 29 Nov 2002 10:25:06 -0000 +Received: from nagmx1.nag.co.uk (HELO nag.co.uk) (62.231.145.242) + by softdnserror with SMTP; 29 Nov 2002 10:25:06 -0000 +Received: from brackley.nag.co.uk (brackley.nag.co.uk [192.156.217.21]) + by nag.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA23088; + Fri, 29 Nov 2002 10:24:58 GMT +Received: from nag.co.uk (IDENT:root@trowbridge.nag.co.uk [192.156.217.69]) + by brackley.nag.co.uk (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id gATAPnJ17362; + Fri, 29 Nov 2002 10:25:57 GMT + (envelope-from miked@nag.co.uk) +Received: (from miked@localhost) + by nag.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA15613; + Fri, 29 Nov 2002 10:24:19 GMT +Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 10:24:19 +0000 +From: Mike Dewar +To: root +Cc: bill.page1@sympatico.ca, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Windows front end +Message-ID: <20021129102419.C15569@nag.co.uk> +References: <200211281535.gASFZK227665@localhost.localdomain> +Mime-Version: 1.0 +Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii +X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i +In-Reply-To: <200211281535.gASFZK227665@localhost.localdomain>; from daly@idsi.net on Thu, Nov 28, 2002 at 10:35:20AM -0500 +Sender: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +Errors-To: axiom-developer-admin@nongnu.org +X-BeenThere: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 +Precedence: bulk +List-Help: +List-Post: +List-Subscribe: , + +List-Id: Axiom Developers +List-Unsubscribe: , + +List-Archive: + +On Thu, Nov 28, 2002 at 10:35:20AM -0500, Tim Daly wrote: + +> > 1. Graphics: On Unix this is done with a combination of bespoke Axiom +> > data structures and some pretty convoluted X-Windows code. On Windows +> > we added facilities to create OpenInventor data structures (OpenInventor +> > is the basis for VRML - the virtual reality markup language). The +> > Inventor geometries were then exported to a little application we wrote +> > based on the standard SceneViewer application you get with many +> > OpenInventor toolkits. The results were definitely superior to the Unix +> > version. +> +> Is the "little application" in the code we have? If not, would NAG +> be willing to share it? +No and no :-( As I said its based on something which was part of the +Inventor toolkit we were using and that is a commercial product which we +were licensing. However it shouldn't be too difficult to find a free VRML +viewer and adapt that. + +> I'm happy to hear that work was done to make the graphics more open. +> One of the stated goals on the homepage is to "give away" the graphics. +> I was planning to enhance the abilities of some other open source +> product (like GNUPlot) with the facilities available in Axiom. That +> way they gain with new function and we gain because we don't have to +> support the graphics any more. +I think we looked at GNUPlot and decided it wasn't good enough because +it lacked many of the features for manipulating 3D images that were in +the Unix version. Using Open Inventor/VRML means you can export images +to industrial-strength visualisation packages which was important to us. +After we released Axiom under Windows, Maple moved their graphics onto +OpenGL (the toolkit Open Inventor is built on) so we're not the only +people who think that this is a good approach :-) Of course GNUplot has +probably come a long way since we looked at it and may be suitable for +your needs, but I doubt its as good as Mathematica and Maple's +offerings. + +> The graphics facility is useful and necessary but the expertise needed +> to do it right is a whole other field of research. Scott Morrison did +> the graphics and he's no longer following computer algebra. +Don't underestimate the importance of visualisation and computer +algebra. Over the years I've met a number of users who chose Axiom +primarily because of its graphics. + +> If you happen to have some useful web and/or book references I'd +> appreciate it if you mention them to the group. +http://www.web3d.org/vrml/vrml.htm seems to be agood place to start +investigating VRML. + +> I hope to define the input and output formats of the interpreter so +> that others can use it. Ideally there would be 3 "pairs" of connections: +> +> Stdin, Stdout for the interpreter/console +> Stdin, Stdout for ethernet ports so you can reach the interpreter +> from network based code (and even the browser/graphics applications) +> Stdin, Stdout "covers" for linked programs on the same system +> +> If we do that cleanly then all of the other things will just be +> stand-alone applications that can communicate with the Axiom interpreter. +> That way we can also leverage them for Aldor. +A lot of this works already (its how sman communicates with the +interpreter) and we've experimented with reading and writing OpenMath as +well. The biggest difficulty might be replacing InputForm which looks simple +enough but has some quite complicated parsing rules. + +> > I wouldn't try porting the X-based graphics to Windows but would either +> > use the OpenInventor stuff and one of the free VRML viewers or use the +> > same approach with a different standard format. For 3D graphics the OI +> > stuff worked pretty-much out-of-the-box, we just added menus for axes, +> > scales etc. For 2D plots we had to add some extra code but that wasn't +> > too hard. +> +> I'll take that advice. Do you happen to know of compatible VRML viewers +> that work on both Windows and Unix? +Well the SceneViewer application which came with our toolkit works on +both (as does our Iris Explorer product which also uses it). I think +that there are some Java applications for VRML which presumably work on +both, although they might depend on other things such as OpenGL libraries +being available. + +> The browser was a piece of the system that was leading edge +> for its time (the web and browsers didn't exist yet). The stated +> plan is to "give away" the browser. In this case what that implies +> is rewriting the system so it uses a real browser instead of our +> home-grown one. +> +> Surely you didn't write lisp that runs on only one platform?! Sigh. +Certainly not, what a disgraceful slur (although I have been known to +write lisp that runs on no platforms at all) :-) When I said that we +changed the underlying lisp I meant that we added C code to CCL and +exposed it as lisp functions (i.e. the grep commands in CCL aren't part +of Common Lisp). + +You should bear in mind that when we started the porting exercise to CCL +it didn't exist as such, and was in fact CSL (as in the inaptly-named +standard lisp used by Reduce). I don't think CCL is a complete common +lisp implementation and I'm sure that we used some of the standard lisp +feautures/behaviours somewhere, even though we tried to avoid doing so. + +> In this world the docs are supposed to be in noweb pamphlets from +> which we can generate LaTeX. Hopefully the front-end will handle the +> cross-platform issues so we don't have to. +Sounds good :-) + +> As I said earlier, Axiom is likely to make its first appearance as +> a command-line interpreter (no doubt causing us to take some flak). +> Rebuilding the rest of the tools is going to be an exercise in +> creativity. It will have the unfortunate side-effect that I'll +> have to learn Windows :-) +Tell me about it ... + +Cheers, Mike. + +_____________________________________________________________________ +This message has been checked for all known viruses by Star Internet +delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Scanning Service. For further +information visit http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp or alternatively call +Star Internet for details on the Virus Scanning Service. + + + diff --git a/book/2002-11.txt b/book/2002-11.txt new file mode 100644 index 0000000..ca369e7 --- /dev/null +++ b/book/2002-11.txt @@ -0,0 +1,9936 @@ + +\start +Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 11:48:42 -0500 +From: root +To: Bill Page , Robert Morelli , + Philippe Toffin , axiom-developer@nongnu.org +CC: daly@idsi.net + +Gentlemen, + +All three of you (Bill Page, Robert Morelli, and Philippe Toffin) have +expressed interest in helping with Axiom. I'm starting to set up the +machinery so we can communicate. I have a service provider who has +set up CVS services for me where I can practice remote management of +a project while I get the first version of the code set up. I've +asked for a userid with write access for each of you. Once that arrives +I'll let you know where and how to access the code. + +Please do the following: + a) download noweb and try a simple example. + b) make sure you copy axiom-developer@nongnu.org on your emails so + we have a record of this process. as more developers join I can + point them at the record and get them up to speed. + +The userids should arrive shortly and I'll let you know as soon as +they are available. Working remotely on a project can be frustrating +(I've already done it) and there will be times when you feel like +you are either neglected or out of the loop of the discussions. +Please try to be patient with your fellow developers. They are all +volunteers like yourself and they have real lives, real time +constraints, and real interests that may not match yours. + +Thanks for volunteering. + +\start +Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 16:54:21 -0500 +From: Bill Page +To: +CC: +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: [Axiom-mail] + +Hello everyone, + +Rather than duplicate email, I think I will try sending +this reply just to the axiom-developer list. Tim could +you please let me know if this is ok and if everything is +working as expected with this email list. Is this email +being forwarded to the other people currently interested +in working on AXIOM development? + +On 2002/11/01 Fri AM 11:48:42 EST daly@idsi.net wrote: +> ... +> Please do the following: +> a) download noweb and try a simple example. +> b) make sure you copy axiom-developer@nongnu.org on your +> emails so we have a record of this process. as more +> developers join I can point them at the record and get +> them up to speed. +> + +I am new to noweb but the concept is familiar to me. Also +Linux is not my usual working environment although I do +use it for several things including Aldor and running a +NAT router on my network. I currently use RedHat 7.2 and +intend to install 8.0 pretty soon. + +Do any of you have experience with the cygwin environment +under Windows? I the following web site seems to contain +some current information and a detailed recipe for running +noweb (as well as ICON and MikTex) under cygwin on Windows: + + http://www.literateprogramming.com/noweb/nowebinstall.html + +I have tried this and it seems to work exactly as +advertised. + +Will it be possible for me to use the cygwin environment +for develop work on AXIOM? If it is possible, do you think +it is advisable? + +\start +Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 21:57:49 -0500 +From: root +To: Bill Page , Robert Morelli , + Philippe Toffin , axiom-developer@nongnu.org +CC: daly@idsi.net, axiom-mail@nongnu.org +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: [Axiom-mail] Status + +All, + +Be sure you've subscribed to the axiom-developer mailing list as I'll only +be copying the list from now on so we can journal the discussions. I urge +you to actually try these instructions because it will make sure that we +share the same ability to create, use and view pamphlets. If these +instructions don't work for you let me know because we need to make +sure you've got a proper environment set up. + +I've uploaded 3 examples of literate programming to illustrate styles. + +An Algebra Example: + +The first is called dhmatrix.pamphlet. The instructions for use are: + +1) wget http://home.earthlink.net/~jgg964/dhmatrix.pamphlet +2) notangle dhmatrix.pamphlet >dhmatrix.spad +3) noweave dhmatrix.pamphlet >dhmatrix.tex +4) latex dhmatrix.tex +5) latex dhmatrix.tex +6) xdvi dhmatrix.dvi + +step (1) will fetch the file. (wget is a useful utility for fetching + files given by a url. how you actually get the file is up to you) +step (2) will read the pamphlet file and create a spad file. + spad is the algebra language of Axiom. This file is extracted from + the pamphlet file and when diff'ed against the original source + shows no difference (an important point since we don't want to + introduce errors by wrapping the original source files into a + literate style). +step (3) will extract the tex output from the pamphlet file. notice + that the dhmatrix.tex file has commands like \documentclass + prepended automatically by noweb. This is, in general, not what + we want so normally we will use the -delay parameter to noweave. + However for this particular example I am experimenting with the + ability to collect many pamphlets into a booklet and I deliberately + left off the \documentclass, etc. The default behavior of noweb + works in this case. +step (4) and (5) read the dhmatrix.tex file and create dhmatrix.dvi + We need to latex it twice to get the cross-references right. I + don't believe there are any cross-references in this file yet but + I do this by habit. +step (6) will let us view the dhmatrix.dvi file. You could also use + other utilities like dvips to create a postscript file or dvipdf + to create a pdf file. I tend to work directly from the dvi file. + +The dhmatrix.pamphlet file is an example of documenting the algebra +code. The original dhmatrix.spad file (which I wrote) was taken from +Richard Paul's Ph.D. thesis which became a book (Robot Manipulators). +Richard gave me permission to quote from his thesis for documenting +the domain. There is much more work to be done but this pamphlet was +written as a first experiment. + +In general I hope to search out primary sources for the algebra +that lives in Axiom and either get permission to directly quote +the relevant paper or study the paper and write a new pamphlet. +There is a large piece of work to track down the original works. + +The next piece of algebra documentation is to use Barry Trager's +Ph.D. thesis to document the integration code. I have his thesis +and permission to use it for documentation purposes. There is a +long leap from the thesis to the code so I have a fair bit of +background research I need to do before I can write up the +pamphlet. The original thesis is 85 pages. + + + +A MAKEFILE Example: + +The second file I've uploaded is actually from the sources we'll +be using. It is a Makefile in the Codemist Common Lisp (CCL) subtree. +The instructions are: + +1) wget http://home.earthlink.net/~jgg964/Makefile.pamphlet +2) notangle -t8 Makefile.pamphlet >Makefile +3) noweave -delay Makefile.pamphlet >Makefile.tex +4) latex Makefile.tex +5) latex Makefile.tex +6) xdvi -expert -s 3 Makefile.dvi + +step (1) will fetch the file. +step (2) will read the pamphlet file and create the Makefile. Notice + the -t8 (tabs every 8 spaces) parameter to notangle. In general we + will need this parameter and it doesn't hurt to have it if there are + no tabs so we will use it all the time. +step (3) noweave will read the pamphlet file and create the tex output. + Notice the -delay option to noweave. We have included the \documentstyle + and other header information in the pamphlet file already. The -delay + option allows us to do this. Unless the file is going to be included + as part of a larger document (like the algebra file above) we will + generally write our own document headers. +steps (4) and (5) are latex->dvi done twice to get reference right. + You are certain to get a complaint about a missing noweb.sty file + because this Makefile was ripped out of the real source tree. + For demo purposes you can modify the line in the original pamphlet + file from: +\usepackage{/home/axiomgnu/new/mnt/linux/bin/tex/noweb} + to: +\usepackage{noweb} + and rerun the command. I would ask you to resist the urge to + change the tex file directly as you need to think of the pamphlet + file as the source and everything else as machine-generated files. +step (6) invokes xdvi with -expert (which eliminates the buttons as + I know the keyboard commands) and -s 3 (which gives sufficient + magnification so I can read it). + +This makefile shows a documentation style for Makefiles in general. + +Makefiles are generally very verbose in their stanzas because we will +not be doing compiles in the same directories as the source files nor +will we be depending on default stanzas to do compiles. + +We need to document the various stanzas and any special options that +we might add to the compile commands. Look for the TPD string which +I use to ifdef any changes I made to the original C sources. This +shows up as a -DTPD on the compile line for that particular stanza. + +Also note that the end of the Makefile.tex contains references to +other pamphlets. The reason for these to support a future plan. We'd +like to be able to accept new code, particularly algebra code, that +we can add to the system in a reasonably automated fashion. The +references will give us this connection. I expect to expand the +format later. These are only placeholders. + +The other reason for the references is that the commands are not +actually documented in the Makefile. The Makefile only documents +build information and other special instructions. For instance, +in another Makefile (not shown here) you need to build a special +Axiom library before you build the C code. While the Makefiles +know this it would be easy for a human to overlook. Instructions +on how to use a particular command as well as documentation on +the C code that implements the command do not belong in the Makefile +but reside in the pamphlet file for the command itself. + +Makefiles will also contain information about what a particular +directory contains and why it exists in the source tree. + + + +A Non-Axiom Example: + +This is an example using Java to show how to build a stand-alone +command and its Makefile + +1) wget http://home.earthlink.net/~jgg964/Magman.pamphlet +2) notangle -t8 Magman.pamphlet >Makefile +3) make + +This illustrates a couple of useful points. First, the default +output of running notangle is the stanza marked <<*>>= in the +original source file. In Magman.pamphlet this is the Makefile. +If you read the dvi file that gets generated (or read the +generated Makefile if you must (sigh)) you will see that we +use the -R feature of notangle. The -R flag will extract particular +tags from the pamphlet file. So, if this were C code we could embed +the .h file, the .c file, and the associated Makefile into the pamphlet +and send them as one file. + +Another point is that this pamphlet file has real mathematics and +real references in it. We will need this to explain sections of Axiom. +In the long term plan we want people to submit papers to an Axiom +Journal that includes the mathematics and executable code. That way +reviewers can test the code, readers can understand the code, the +system can import the code and maintainers can update the code. + +This code is not related to Axiom but is here to illustrate the +embedded Makefile and mathematics points. If you don't have Java +this will fail but that is not important. Note that we mix Java +C and Makefile in the same pamphlet file. + +\start +Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 22:10:06 -0500 +From: "Bill Page" +To: +Cc: +Subject: [Axiom-developer] examples + +Tim, + +I have successfully downloaded your 3 sample pamphlet +files and completed the recommended exercises. So far +everything seems to be working ok for me win cygwin +under Windows XP just as you describe. It seems to me +that this should work quite well. + +Let me know when you have the user id for access to +CVS. + +Thanks. + +Bill Page. + +> -----Original Message----- +> From: axiom-mail-admin@nongnu.org +> [mailto:axiom-mail-admin@nongnu.org] On Behalf Of root +> Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 9:58 PM +> To: Bill Page; Robert Morelli; Philippe Toffin; +> axiom-developer@nongnu.org +> Cc: daly@idsi.net; axiom-mail@nongnu.org +> Subject: Re: [Axiom-mail] Status +> +> +> All, +> +> Be sure you've subscribed to the axiom-developer mailing list +> as I'll only be copying the list from now on so we can +> journal the discussions. I urge you to actually try these +> instructions because it will make sure that we share the same +> ability to create, use and view pamphlets. If these +> instructions don't work for you let me know because we need +> to make sure you've got a proper environment set up. +> +> I've uploaded 3 examples of literate programming to illustrate styles. +> +> An Algebra Example: +> +> The first is called dhmatrix.pamphlet. The instructions for use are: +> +> 1) wget http://home.earthlink.net/~jgg964/dhmatrix.pamphlet +> 2) notangle dhmatrix.pamphlet >dhmatrix.spad +> 3) noweave dhmatrix.pamphlet >dhmatrix.tex +> 4) latex dhmatrix.tex +> 5) latex dhmatrix.tex +> 6) xdvi dhmatrix.dvi +> +> step (1) will fetch the file. (wget is a useful utility for fetching +> files given by a url. how you actually get the file is up +> to you) step (2) will read the pamphlet file and create a spad file. +> spad is the algebra language of Axiom. This file is extracted from +> the pamphlet file and when diff'ed against the original source +> shows no difference (an important point since we don't want to +> introduce errors by wrapping the original source files into a +> literate style). +> step (3) will extract the tex output from the pamphlet file. notice +> that the dhmatrix.tex file has commands like \documentclass +> prepended automatically by noweb. This is, in general, not what +> we want so normally we will use the -delay parameter to noweave. +> However for this particular example I am experimenting with the +> ability to collect many pamphlets into a booklet and I deliberately +> left off the \documentclass, etc. The default behavior of noweb +> works in this case. +> step (4) and (5) read the dhmatrix.tex file and create dhmatrix.dvi +> We need to latex it twice to get the cross-references right. I +> don't believe there are any cross-references in this file yet but +> I do this by habit. +> step (6) will let us view the dhmatrix.dvi file. You could also use +> other utilities like dvips to create a postscript file or dvipdf +> to create a pdf file. I tend to work directly from the dvi file. +> +> The dhmatrix.pamphlet file is an example of documenting the +> algebra code. The original dhmatrix.spad file (which I wrote) +> was taken from Richard Paul's Ph.D. thesis which became a +> book (Robot Manipulators). Richard gave me permission to +> quote from his thesis for documenting the domain. There is +> much more work to be done but this pamphlet was written as a +> first experiment. +> +> In general I hope to search out primary sources for the +> algebra that lives in Axiom and either get permission to +> directly quote the relevant paper or study the paper and +> write a new pamphlet. There is a large piece of work to track +> down the original works. +> +> The next piece of algebra documentation is to use Barry +> Trager's Ph.D. thesis to document the integration code. I +> have his thesis and permission to use it for documentation +> purposes. There is a long leap from the thesis to the code so +> I have a fair bit of background research I need to do before +> I can write up the +> pamphlet. The original thesis is 85 pages. +> +> +> +> A MAKEFILE Example: +> +> The second file I've uploaded is actually from the sources +> we'll be using. It is a Makefile in the Codemist Common Lisp +> (CCL) subtree. The instructions are: +> +> 1) wget http://home.earthlink.net/~jgg964/Makefile.pamphlet +> 2) notangle -t8 Makefile.pamphlet >Makefile +> 3) noweave -delay Makefile.pamphlet >Makefile.tex +> 4) latex Makefile.tex +> 5) latex Makefile.tex +> 6) xdvi -expert -s 3 Makefile.dvi +> +> step (1) will fetch the file. +> step (2) will read the pamphlet file and create the Makefile. Notice +> the -t8 (tabs every 8 spaces) parameter to notangle. In general we +> will need this parameter and it doesn't hurt to have it if +> there are +> no tabs so we will use it all the time. +> step (3) noweave will read the pamphlet file and create the +> tex output. +> Notice the -delay option to noweave. We have included the +> \documentstyle +> and other header information in the pamphlet file already. +> The -delay +> option allows us to do this. Unless the file is going to +> be included +> as part of a larger document (like the algebra file above) we will +> generally write our own document headers. +> steps (4) and (5) are latex->dvi done twice to get reference right. +> You are certain to get a complaint about a missing noweb.sty file +> because this Makefile was ripped out of the real source tree. +> For demo purposes you can modify the line in the original pamphlet +> file from: \usepackage{/home/axiomgnu/new/mnt/linux/bin/tex/noweb} +> to: +> \usepackage{noweb} +> and rerun the command. I would ask you to resist the urge to +> change the tex file directly as you need to think of the pamphlet +> file as the source and everything else as +> machine-generated files. step (6) invokes xdvi with -expert +> (which eliminates the buttons as +> I know the keyboard commands) and -s 3 (which gives sufficient +> magnification so I can read it). +> +> This makefile shows a documentation style for Makefiles in general. +> +> Makefiles are generally very verbose in their stanzas because +> we will not be doing compiles in the same directories as the +> source files nor will we be depending on default stanzas to +> do compiles. +> +> We need to document the various stanzas and any special +> options that we might add to the compile commands. Look for +> the TPD string which I use to ifdef any changes I made to the +> original C sources. This shows up as a -DTPD on the compile +> line for that particular stanza. +> +> Also note that the end of the Makefile.tex contains +> references to other pamphlets. The reason for these to +> support a future plan. We'd like to be able to accept new +> code, particularly algebra code, that we can add to the +> system in a reasonably automated fashion. The +> references will give us this connection. I expect to expand +> the format later. These are only placeholders. +> +> The other reason for the references is that the commands are +> not actually documented in the Makefile. The Makefile only +> documents build information and other special instructions. +> For instance, in another Makefile (not shown here) you need +> to build a special Axiom library before you build the C code. +> While the Makefiles know this it would be easy for a human to +> overlook. Instructions on how to use a particular command as +> well as documentation on the C code that implements the +> command do not belong in the Makefile but reside in the +> pamphlet file for the command itself. +> +> Makefiles will also contain information about what a +> particular directory contains and why it exists in the source tree. +> +> +> +> A Non-Axiom Example: +> +> This is an example using Java to show how to build a +> stand-alone command and its Makefile +> +> 1) wget http://home.earthlink.net/~jgg964/Magman.pamphlet +> 2) notangle -t8 Magman.pamphlet >Makefile +> 3) make +> +> This illustrates a couple of useful points. First, the +> default output of running notangle is the stanza marked +> <<*>>= in the original source file. In Magman.pamphlet this +> is the Makefile. If you read the dvi file that gets generated +> (or read the generated Makefile if you must (sigh)) you will +> see that we use the -R feature of notangle. The -R flag will +> extract particular tags from the pamphlet file. So, if this +> were C code we could embed the .h file, the .c file, and the +> associated Makefile into the pamphlet +> and send them as one file. +> +> Another point is that this pamphlet file has real mathematics +> and real references in it. We will need this to explain +> sections of Axiom. In the long term plan we want people to +> submit papers to an Axiom +> Journal that includes the mathematics and executable code. +> That way reviewers can test the code, readers can understand +> the code, the system can import the code and maintainers can +> update the code. +> +> This code is not related to Axiom but is here to illustrate +> the embedded Makefile and mathematics points. If you don't have Java +> this will fail but that is not important. Note that we mix +> Java C and Makefile in the same pamphlet file. + +\start +Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 21:57:20 -0500 +From: root +To: bill.page1@sympatico.ca +CC: daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: examples + +Excellent. Rumor has it that CCL will run under windows and cygwin so +you might end up taking the lead in applying fixes and testing those +platforms. I'm still getting CCL ready for first release. Once that +comes out we can see what the windows and cygwin issues are. + +\start +Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 17:48:52 -0500 +From: Bill Page +To: +CC: +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Re: examples + +Tim, + +Ok, that's fine with me. I am willing to run with cygwin +for now. If necessary, I can switch over to Red Hat Linux +on another system later (or maybe I will work in parallel +on both systems if I have enough time). + +What is the situation with CCL (Codemist Common Lisp, +right?)? Is Codemist making it public domain? It seems +to me that when I installed REDUCE (also based on CCL), +that the lisp interpreter was "proprietary". + +Is there anything in particular you would recommend in +terms of getting ready for CCL? + +Regards, +Bill Page. + +> +> From: root +> Date: 2002/11/03 Sun PM 09:57:20 EST +> To: bill.page1@sympatico.ca +> CC: daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +> Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: examples +> +> Excellent. Rumor has it that CCL will run under windows and cygwin so +> you might end up taking the lead in applying fixes and testing those +> platforms. I'm still getting CCL ready for first release. Once that +> comes out we can see what the windows and cygwin issues are. + +\start +Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 18:13:28 -0500 +From: Bill Page +To: +CC: +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Re: examples + +Tim, + +What is the story about the version of CCL (and Axiom??) +that is available at the Codemist website + + http://www.codemist.co.uk/ + +(click on the CSL/CCL link). The same thing is also +apparently at + + http://homepage.ntlworld.com/codemist/ + +In a quick web search several people have apparently +already noticed that this is now available but no one +mentions any notice or statement from Codemist. + +> +> From: root +> Date: 2002/11/03 Sun PM 09:57:20 EST +> To: bill.page1@sympatico.ca +> CC: daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +> Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: examples +> +> Excellent. Rumor has it that CCL will run under windows and cygwin so +> you might end up taking the lead in applying fixes and testing those +> platforms. I'm still getting CCL ready for first release. Once that +> comes out we can see what the windows and cygwin issues are. +> +> Tim + +\start +Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 19:44:29 -0500 +From: root +To: bill.page1@sympatico.ca +CC: daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Subject: [Axiom-developer] ccl.tgz + +re: http://www.codemist.co.uk/ccl.tgz + +These were the original files I used for downloading, I believe. +Google must have found them from somewhere. They are massively changed +into literate format in the current system though the pamphlet files +contain little more than source code at the moment. The makefiles are +wildly different and are documented. I haven't concentrated on +documenting any of the internals yet except where I need to make +changes. That step will occur when I have cycles to spare. + +The REDUCE lisp interpreter was (and portions still are) proprietary. +Arthur Norman has released portions of the code necessary to build Axiom +under the BSD style license used by NAG. + +re: getting ready for CCL + +I've created a CVS directory on the real website (it is only +the license directory and it contains the text of the licenses +I've found in the source code consolidated into single files). +See if you can check out the axiom subtree. It should contain +the following structure: + + axiom + license + LICENSE.AXIOM + LICENSE.BULL + LICENSE.CCL + LICENSE.EAY + LICENSE.FSF + LICENSE.NOWEB + LICENSE.RAND + LICENSE.SMC + +Please make note of all of the steps required to get these files, +including what pages you had to visit and what permissions you needed +(I believe you'll have to generate an ssh key). I'll use your steps +document as instructions for new developers so try to be as detailed +as possible. Once you can reach these files I'll start CVS adding the +tree I have now. That will allow us to see if you can build the lisps. +It all builds cleanly here but I have a monoculture of Linux systems. + +Tim + +\start +Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 21:26:45 -0500 +From: root +To: bill.page1@sympatico.ca +CC: daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Subject: [Axiom-developer] AIM Instant Message + +I've registered with the AOL Instant Messenger service under +the screen name of "gnuaxiom". If you have access to this +service try adding me to your buddy list. + +\start +Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 19:55:37 -0500 +From: root +To: bill.page1@sympatico.ca +CC: daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Subject: [Axiom-developer] ccl.tgz + +When you've succeeded doing a CVS checkout I think we should figure +out a mechanism where we can instant message each other (and any other +developers). I know that the AOL things don't run here but there must +be a common format between thee and me. This will vastly shorten the +time it takes to communicate. + +\start +Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 06:34:08 -0500 +From: root +To: toffin@math.unicaen.fr +CC: daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Axiom Development + +> Daly, +> +> I have been working with Axiom for many years, first with a version for +> IBM risc6000, (this plattform is not running any more), and now with a +> Linux version that I got from Nag some time ago. +> I am desesperately trying to run my former programs: I enclosed somes +> files with a very simple Domain definition, with one single function; +> you can see the result of the compilation wich is fine, and the result of +> the running wich is interrupted because it does not find the Integers!!! +> +> I do not know if you are the appropriate person able to tell me what is +> wrong; may be there is some open forum for questions: could you forward +> this if it is the case? +> +> thanks anyway +> +> philippe + +Philippe, + +I'll look at this after work tonight. I'm the "appropriate" person as +I'm the only person. We'll eventually have a task list and a bug list +running (actually, they exist but so far they all come to me anyway +so sending me the files directly is quicker). We have to figure out +who is responsible for what parts of the system which will take time. + +I have set up an AOL Instant Messenger client (my screen name is +gnuaxiom). That way everyone who has subscribed to the developer +mailing list will be able to communicate in real time rather than +thru email. + +I'm working to set developers up with write access to CVS on tenkan, +my private CVS server. That way we can make mistakes and work out +details of communicating and working together. The root admin guy +is at a conference until wednesday of this week but I should be ready +shortly after that. + +I posted a single directory with a few files in it on the real CVS. +See if you can do a CVS checkout of the tree. You will need to +create an ssh key (with the -t rsa1 option). You won't yet have +write access to the source but you can read it. + +\start +Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 06:23:41 -0500 +From: root +To: bill.page1@sympatico.ca +CC: daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: list of developers + +> Bill Page wrote: +> +> Tim, +> +> The "Developers List" at +> +> http://savannah.nongnu.org/projects/axiom +> +> still shows only you as a developer. Should I expect to +> see the other three people (including myself) in this list? +> Is this necessary before I can get full access to CVS? +> +> I have made some first attempts to access the axiom cvs +> repository. I can certainly view it via the web with no +> problem. But I don't seem to be able to use :pserver: access +> (at least not from where I am working for the next 2 days - +> behind a rather strick firewall). I'll try this again from +> home on Thursday. +> +> I have also set up and registered an SSH key. I understand +> it takes some time to become effective. It is not working +> yet, but I will try again later today. + +Bill, + +Being on the developer's list will give you write access which we're +really not ready for yet. People will be added to the list when we've +figured out the rest of the machinery and how we are going to +communicate. And we need to decide areas of responsibility so we don't +clobber each other's code as CVS does not support locking. Besides, +at the moment there is nothing to modify. We need to filter the first +few changes thru me until I'm sure developers understand the system. +It is a big system and simple changes can have widespread +consequences. One of the parts we need to get working is a regression +test tree. That used to be wired into the makefiles but only for the +final algebra. We need to do much more thorough testing. + +I'm working on adding developers to the write list on tenkan where I +prototype work and things are much more relaxed as the work is not +publicly available. We can freely damage things there while we work +out the bugs of interacting. Unfortunately the root guy is at a lisp +conference in san fransisco until wednesday. I'll let you know +further details as soon as I know. + +However, you should be able to have read access. Try: + +cvs -z3 -d(yourUserId)@savannah.gnu.org:/cvsroot/axiom co axiom + +it should prompt you for your RSA key. If it isn't prompting you +for the key you might have generated a key without using the +-t rsa1 option. It won't let you login but it will let you do +a checkout. If this doesn't work let me know and we'll debug it. +Be sure to write down whatever you do to fix it as you may be +the first one with the problem but other developers will certainly +fall into the same trap. + +As for communications, I succeeded in setting up AIM on linux. +My screen name is gnuaxiom (axiom was either taken or too short). +If you can't get AIM running lets pick a common instant message +platform so we can improve communications. I'd like to figure out +how to log the message streams so we can share the experience but +so far I don't see how to with this client. If I had the cycles +I'd grab the source and hack it in but that's pretty low on the +long list. I'm generally available after about 5pm EST. + +I checked further into the CCL source code you found. It might build a +running CCL (I didn't try) but it is missing the files necessary to +support Axiom. The benefit of playing with that file might be that you +learn to build CCL using their makefiles. This could be good as +you'll know the details of running it under cygwin and windows, +neither of which I can test but both of which it would be nice to have +running. The down sides are that the makefiles are different and it +won't run Axiom. + +\start +Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 12:25:34 -0500 +From: Bill Page +To: +CC: +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] ccl.tgz + +Tim, + +Unfortunately AOL (and instant messaging in general) +isn't accessible from the computers as my current +"day job". But it shouldn't be a problem when I am at +home (tomorrow). + +I have continued to try to access the cvs repository but +I am unable to get past the password prompt that is +generated when I do + +$ cvs -dbillpage1@subversions.gnu.org:/cvsroot/axiom co axiom +billpage1@subversions.gnu.org's password: +Permission denied, please try again. +billpage1@subversions.gnu.org's password: +Permission denied, please try again. +billpage1@subversions.gnu.org's password: +Permission denied. +cvs [checkout aborted]: end of file from server + +The documentation says that I would get this prompt if +my public key is not being recognized. But I have double +checked everything and I am quite sure that I have +generated the rsa1 key properly. I've set protocol 1 in +the ssh config file and I have uploaded the public key +to Savannah (and waited the appropriate amount of time). +So I don't think that's the problem. I also thought that +maybe the rather strict firewall rules here where I am +working might prevent an SSH connection, but the network +guru's here assure me that SSH should be possible - +although they warn that almost all non-standard port +usage is disabled. I know that the :pserver: protocol on +cvs uses port 2401 which I am quite sure is on the +disabled list, so that explains why anonymous mode also +does not work (if you have not done anything else to +prevent it). + +Anyway, tomorrow I will try all this again from the other +side of the firewall from my other machines at home. + +Also, in my spare time here I've been poking around the +source for CCL that I downloaded from the Codemist site. +My first attempts to build this under cygwin have been +unsuccessful. There seem to be a number of notes embedded +in make files etc. that need to be consulted and changed +before the make files, as downloaded, will run. There is +also a makemake.c bootstrap program that looks a little +more promising, but although it generated a new set of +make files, those also did not work on my first try. +I don't intend to spend much time on this, but I will let +you know if I make any progress. + +I look forward to seeing (and helping to create) the well +documented noweb version of this stuff. + +Cheers, +Bill Page. + + +> +> From: root +> Date: 2002/11/04 Mon PM 07:55:37 EST +> To: bill.page1@sympatico.ca +> CC: daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +> Subject: [Axiom-developer] ccl.tgz +> +> When you've succeeded doing a CVS checkout I think we should figure +> out a mechanism where we can instant message each other (and any other +> developers). I know that the AOL things don't run here but there must +> be a common format between thee and me. This will vastly shorten the +> time it takes to communicate. + +\start +Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 12:52:41 -0500 +From: Bill Page +To: +CC: , +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] AIM Instant Message + +Tim, + +I have the Windows instant messaging thing installed at +home and it is supposed to be AOL compatible. I will give +it a try tomorrow. Actually, I very seldom ever use the +instant stuff since I seldom seem to be online when the +person I want to talk to is also online and I find it +rather inefficient in any case. I prefer email for it's +asynchronicity and offline "think time" (plus spellchecker +). But if a quick conversation would help, I am not +at all adverse to the old fashioned telephone. + +If you want you can reach me at + + (613) 546-9795 + +when I'm at home (Thursday -> Sunday) or at + + (613) 996-5896 + +when I am at work. + +Regards, +Bill Page. + +> +> From: root +> Date: 2002/11/04 Mon PM 09:26:45 EST +> To: bill.page1@sympatico.ca +> CC: daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +> Subject: [Axiom-developer] AIM Instant Message +> +> I've registered with the AOL Instant Messenger service under +> the screen name of "gnuaxiom". If you have access to this +> service try adding me to your buddy list. + +\start +Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 00:16:36 -0500 +From: root +To: bill.page1@sympatico.ca +CC: daly@idsi.net, daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] AIM Instant Message + +Bill, +I've uploaded the latest version to tenkan. +I'm going to try to contact my sysadmin and get the developers +set up with access so we can experiment with working together. + +\start +Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 00:14:27 -0500 +From: root +To: daly@idsi.net +CC: toffin@math.unicaen.fr, daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Axiom Development + +Philippe, + +Sorry, I didn't get a chance to look at your problem last night. +I had a surprise presentation I have to set up for a meeting today. + +\start +Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 00:24:49 -0500 +From: root +To: A.G.Grozin@inp.nsk.su +CC: daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Subject: [Axiom-developer] clef + +clef is a single program. the source (without the include files) +is attached. let me know if you need more. + +Tim + +----------------------------------------------------------------- + +/* +Copyright (c) 1991-2002, The Numerical ALgorithms Group Ltd. +All rights reserved. + +Redistribution and use in source and binary forms, with or without +modification, are permitted provided that the following conditions are +met: + + - Redistributions of source code must retain the above copyright + notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer. + + - Redistributions in binary form must reproduce the above copyright + notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer in + the documentation and/or other materials provided with the + distribution. + + - Neither the name of The Numerical ALgorithms Group Ltd. nor the + names of its contributors may be used to endorse or promote products + derived from this software without specific prior written permission. + +THIS SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED BY THE COPYRIGHT HOLDERS AND CONTRIBUTORS "AS +IS" AND ANY EXPRESS OR IMPLIED WARRANTIES, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED +TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A +PARTICULAR PURPOSE ARE DISCLAIMED. IN NO EVENT SHALL THE COPYRIGHT OWNER +OR CONTRIBUTORS BE LIABLE FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, +EXEMPLARY, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES (INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, +PROCUREMENT OF SUBSTITUTE GOODS OR SERVICES; LOSS OF USE, DATA, OR +PROFITS; OR BUSINESS INTERRUPTION) HOWEVER CAUSED AND ON ANY THEORY OF +LIABILITY, WHETHER IN CONTRACT, STRICT LIABILITY, OR TORT (INCLUDING +NEGLIGENCE OR OTHERWISE) ARISING IN ANY WAY OUT OF THE USE OF THIS +SOFTWARE, EVEN IF ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGE. +*/ + +#include "useproto.h" +#include +#include +#include +#include +#include +#include +#include +#include +#include +#include + + +#if defined (SGIplatform) +#include +#endif + + +#include "edible.h" +#include "com.h" +#include "bsdsignal.h" + +#include "bsdsignal.H1" +#include "openpty.H1" +#include "prt.H1" +#include "edin.H1" +#include "wct.H1" +#include "edible.H1" +#include "fnct_key.H1" + +#ifdef unlikely +#define log 1 +#define logterm 1 +#define siglog 1 +#endif + + +#define Cursor_shape(x) + + +#ifdef siglog +int sigfile; +char sigbuff[256]; +#endif + +/* Here are the term structures I need for setting and resetting the + terminal characteristics. */ + +struct termios childbuf; /* the childs normal operating termio */ +struct termios oldbuf; /* the initial settings */ +struct termios rawbuf; /* the parents raw state, when it is doing nothing */ +struct termios canonbuf; /* set it to be canonical */ + +/* the terminals mapping of the function keys */ +unsigned char _INTR, _QUIT, _ERASE, _KILL, _EOF, _EOL, _RES1, _RES2; + + +int ppid; /* the parents's parent pid */ +int child_pid; /* the childs process id */ + +short INS_MODE ; /* Flag for insert mode */ +short ECHOIT = 1; /* Flag for echoing */ +short PTY; /* Flag which tells me whether I should echo newlines */ + +int MODE; /* am I in cbreak, raw, or canonical */ + +char in_buff[1024]; /* buffer for storing characters read until they are processed */ +char buff[MAXLINE]; /** Buffers for collecting input and **/ +int buff_flag[MAXLINE]; /** flags for whether buff chars + are printing + or non-printing **/ + + +char controllerPath[20]; /* path name for opening the controller side */ +char serverPath[20]; /* path name for opening the server side */ + +int contNum, serverNum; /* file descriptors for pty's */ +int num_read; /* Number of chars read */ + +#ifdef log +int logfd; +char logpath[30]; +#endif + + + + + +int +#ifdef _NO_PROTO +main(argc, argv) + int argc; + char *argv[]; +#else +main(int argc, char *argv[]) +#endif + +{ + fd_set rfds; /* the structure for the select call */ + int code; /* return code from system calls */ + char out_buff[MAXLINE]; /* from child and stdin */ + int out_flag[MAXLINE] ; /* initialize the output flags */ + char *program; /* a string to hold the child program invocation */ + char **pargs = 0; /* holds parts of the command line */ + int not_command = 1; /* a flag while parsing the command line */ + + + + /* try to get a pseudoterminal to play with */ + if (ptyopen(&contNum, &serverNum, controllerPath, serverPath) == -1) { + perror("ptyopen failed"); + exit(-1); + } + + /* call the routine that handles signals */ + catch_signals(); + + /* parse the command line arguments - as with the aixterm the command + argument -e should be last on the line. */ + + while(*++argv && not_command) { + if(!strcmp(*argv, "-f")) + load_wct_file(*++argv); + else if(!strcmp(*argv, "-e")) { + not_command = 0; + pargs = ++argv; + } + else { + fprintf(stderr, "usage: clef [-f fname] -e command\n"); + exit(-1); + } + } + skim_wct(); + +#ifdef log + sprintf(logpath, "/tmp/cleflog%d", getpid()); + logfd = open(logpath, O_CREAT | O_RDWR, 0666); +#endif + + /* get the original termio settings, so the child has them */ + + if(tcgetattr(0,&childbuf) == -1) { + perror("clef trying to get the initial terminal settings"); + exit(-1); + } + + /* start the child process */ + + child_pid = fork(); + switch(child_pid) { + case -1 : + perror("clef can't create a new process"); + exit(-1); + case 0: + /* CHILD */ + /* Dissasociate form my parents group so all my child processes + look at my terminal as the controlling terminal for the group */ + setsid(); + + + serverNum = open(serverPath,O_RDWR); + + /* since I am the child, I can close ptc, and dup pts for all it + standard descriptors */ + if( (dup2(serverNum, 0) == -1) || + (dup2(serverNum, 1) == -1) || + (dup2(serverNum, 2) == -1) ) { + perror("clef trying to dup2"); + exit(-1); + } + + /* since they have been duped, close them */ + close(serverNum); + close(contNum); + + + /* To make sure everything is nice, set off enhedit */ + /* childbuf.c_line = 0; */ + + /* reconfigure the child's terminal get echoing */ + if(tcsetattr(0, TCSAFLUSH, &childbuf) == -1) { + perror("clef child trying to set child's terminal"); + exit(-1); + } + + /* fire up the child's process */ + if(pargs){ + execvp( pargs[0], pargs); + perror("clef trying to execvp its argument"); + fprintf(stderr, "Process --> %s\n", pargs[0]); + } + else{ + program = getenv("SHELL"); + if (!program) + program = strdup("/bin/sh"); + else + program = strdup (program); + execlp( program,program, 0); + perror("clef trying to execlp the default child"); + fprintf(stderr, "Process --> %s\n", program); + } + exit(-1); + break; + /* end switch */ + } + /* PARENT */ + /* Since I am the parent, I should start to initialize some stuff. + I have to close the pts side for it to work properly */ + + close(serverNum); + ppid = getppid(); + + /* Iinitialize some stuff for the reading and writing */ + init_flag(out_flag, MAXLINE); + define_function_keys(); + init_reader(); + PTY = 1; + init_parent(); + + /* Here is the main loop, it simply starts reading characters from + the std input, and from the child. */ + + while(1) { /* loop forever */ + + /* use select to see who has stuff waiting for me to handle */ + /* set file descriptors for ptc and stdin */ + FD_ZERO(&rfds); + FD_SET(contNum,&rfds); + FD_SET(0,&rfds); + set_function_chars(); +#ifdef log + { + char modepath[30]; + sprintf(modepath, "\nMODE = %d\n", MODE); + write(logfd, modepath, strlen(modepath)); + } +#endif +#ifdef logterm + { + struct termio ptermio; + char pbuff[1024]; + tcgetattr(contNum, &ptermio); + sprintf(pbuff, "child's settings: Lflag = %d, Oflag = %d, Iflag = %d\n", + ptermio.c_lflag, ptermio.c_oflag, ptermio.c_iflag); + write(logfd, pbuff, strlen(pbuff)); + } +#endif + + code = select(FD_SETSIZE,(void *) &rfds, NULL, NULL, NULL); + for(; code < 0 ;) { + if(errno == EINTR) { + check_flip(); + code = select(FD_SETSIZE,(void *) &rfds, NULL, NULL, NULL); + } + else { + perror("clef select failure"); + exit(-1); + } + } + + /* reading from the child **/ + if( FD_ISSET(contNum,&rfds)) { + if( (num_read = read(contNum, out_buff, MAXLINE)) == -1) { + num_read = 0; + } +#ifdef log + write(logfd, "OUT<<<<<", strlen("OUT<<<<<")); + write(logfd, out_buff, num_read); +#endif + if(num_read > 0) { + /* now do the printing to the screen */ + if(MODE!= CLEFRAW) { + back_up(buff_pntr); + write(1,out_buff, num_read); + print_whole_buff(); /* reprint the input buffer */ + } + else write(1,out_buff, num_read); + } + } /* done the child stuff */ + /* I should read from std input */ + else { + if(FD_ISSET(0,&rfds)) { + num_read = read(0, in_buff, MAXLINE); +#ifdef log + write(logfd, "IN<<<<<", strlen("IN<<<<<")); + write(logfd, in_buff, num_read); +#endif + check_flip(); + if(MODE == CLEFRAW ) + write(contNum, in_buff, num_read); + else + do_reading(); + } + } + } +} + + +void +#ifdef _NO_PROTO +init_parent() +#else +init_parent(void) +#endif +{ + + /* get the original termio settings, so I never have to check again */ + if(tcgetattr(0, &oldbuf) == -1) { + perror("clef trying to get terminal initial settings"); + exit(-1); + } + + /* get the settings for my different modes */ + if ((tcgetattr(0, &canonbuf) == -1) || + (tcgetattr(0, &rawbuf) == -1) ) { + perror("clef trying to get terminal settings"); + exit(-1); + } + + + canonbuf.c_lflag &= ~(ICANON | ECHO | ISIG); + /* read before an eoln is typed */ + + canonbuf.c_lflag |= ISIG; + + /* canonbuf.c_line = 0; turn off enhanced edit */ + + canonbuf.c_cc[VMIN] = 1; /* we want every character */ + canonbuf.c_cc[VTIME] = 1; /* these may require tweaking */ + + /* also set up the parents raw setting for when needed **/ + rawbuf.c_oflag = rawbuf.c_iflag = rawbuf.c_lflag /* = rawbuf.c_line */ = 0; + rawbuf.c_cc[VMIN] = 1; + rawbuf.c_cc[VTIME] = 1; + + + if(tcsetattr(0, TCSAFLUSH, &canonbuf) == -1) { + perror("clef setting parent terminal to canonical processing"); + exit(0); + } + + /* initialize some flags I will be using */ + MODE = CLEFCANONICAL; + INS_MODE = 1; + Cursor_shape(2); +} + + +void +#ifdef _NO_PROTO +hangup_handler(sig) + int sig; +#else +hangup_handler(int sig) +#endif +{ +#ifdef siglog + sigfile = open(sigbuff, O_RDWR | O_APPEND); + write(sigfile, "Hangup Handler\n", strlen("Hangup Handler\n")); + close(sigfile); +#endif + /* try to kill my child if it is around */ + if(kill(child_pid, 0)) kill(child_pid, SIGTERM); + if(kill(ppid, 0) >= 0) { + /* fix the terminal and exit */ + if(tcsetattr(0, TCSAFLUSH, &oldbuf) == -1) { + perror("clef restoring terminal in hangup handler"); + } + printf("\n"); + } + /* remove the temporary editor filename */ + unlink(editorfilename); + exit(-1); +} + +void +#ifdef _NO_PROTO +terminate_handler(sig) + int sig; +#else +terminate_handler(int sig) +#endif +{ +#ifdef siglog + sigfile = open(sigbuff, O_RDWR | O_APPEND); + write(sigfile, "Terminate Handler\n", strlen("Terminate Handler\n") + 1); + close(sigfile); + sleep(1); +#endif + kill(child_pid, SIGTERM); + /* fix the terminal, and exit */ + if(tcsetattr(0, TCSAFLUSH, &oldbuf) == -1) { + perror("clef restoring terminal in terminate handler"); + } + printf("\n"); + Cursor_shape(2); + fprintf(stderr, "\n"); + /* remove the temporary editor filename */ + unlink(editorfilename); + exit(0); +} + +void +#ifdef _NO_PROTO +interrupt_handler(sig) + int sig; +#else +interrupt_handler(int sig) +#endif +{ +#ifdef siglog + sigfile = open(sigbuff, O_RDWR | O_APPEND); + write(sigfile, "Interrupt Handler\n", strlen("Interrupt Handler\n") + 1); + close(sigfile); + sleep(1); +#endif + kill(child_pid, SIGINT); +} + +void +#ifdef _NO_PROTO +child_handler(sig) + int sig; +#else +child_handler(int sig) +#endif +{ +#ifdef siglog + sigfile = open(sigbuff, O_RDWR | O_APPEND ); + write(sigfile, "Child Handler\n", strlen("Child Handler\n") + 1); + close(sigfile); +#endif + Cursor_shape(2); + close(contNum); + if(kill(ppid, 0) >= 0) { + /* fix the terminal, and exit */ + if(tcsetattr(0, TCSAFLUSH, &oldbuf) == -1) { + perror("clef restoring terminal in child handler"); + } + printf("\n"); + } + /* remove the temporary editor filename */ + unlink(editorfilename); + exit(0); +} + +void +#ifdef _NO_PROTO +alarm_handler(sig) + int sig; +#else +alarm_handler(int sig) +#endif +{ + int newppid = getppid(); +#ifdef siglog + sigfile = open(sigbuff, O_RDWR | O_APPEND); + write(sigfile, "Alarm Handler\n", strlen("Alarm Handler\n")+ 1 ); + close(sigfile); +#endif + /* simply gets the parent process id, if different, it terminates , + otherwise it resets the alarm */ + + if(ppid == newppid) { + alarm(60); + return; + } + else { + /* once that is done fix the terminal, and exit */ + if(tcsetattr(0, TCSAFLUSH, &oldbuf) == -1) { + perror("clef restoring terminal in alarm handler"); + } + Cursor_shape(2); + fprintf(stderr, "\n"); + /* remove the temporary editor filename */ + unlink(editorfilename); + exit(0); + } +} + +/* a procedure which tells my parent how to catch signals from its children */ +void +#ifdef _NO_PROTO +catch_signals() +#else +catch_signals(void) +#endif +{ +#ifdef siglog + sprintf(sigbuff, "/tmp/csig%d", getpid()); + sigfile = open(sigbuff, O_RDWR | O_TRUNC | O_CREAT); + write(sigfile, "Started \n", strlen("Started \n")); + close(sigfile); +#endif + bsdSignal(SIGHUP, hangup_handler,RestartSystemCalls); + bsdSignal(SIGCHLD,child_handler,RestartSystemCalls); + bsdSignal(SIGTERM, terminate_handler,RestartSystemCalls); + bsdSignal(SIGINT, interrupt_handler,RestartSystemCalls); + bsdSignal(SIGALRM, alarm_handler,RestartSystemCalls); + alarm(60); +} + +/* Here is where I check the child's termio settings, and try to copy them. + I simply trace through the main modes (CLEFRAW, CLEFCANONICAL) and + try to simulate them */ +void +#ifdef _NO_PROTO +check_flip() +#else +check_flip(void) +#endif +{ + return; + +#if 0 + /*simply checks the termio structure of the child */ + + if(tcgetattr(contNum, &childbuf) == -1) { + perror("clef parent getting child's terminal in check_termio"); + } + if(childbuf.c_lflag & ICANON) { + if(MODE != CLEFCANONICAL) { + flip_canonical(contNum); + MODE = CLEFCANONICAL; + } + } + else { + if(MODE != CLEFRAW) { + flip_raw(contNum); + MODE = CLEFRAW; + } + } + /* While I am here, lets set the echo */ + if(childbuf.c_lflag & ECHO) ECHOIT = 1; + else ECHOIT = 0; +#endif +} + + + +void +#ifdef _NO_PROTO +flip_raw(chann) + int chann; +#else +flip_raw(int chann) +#endif +{ + + if(MODE == CLEFCANONICAL) + send_buff_to_child(chann); + + if(tcsetattr(0, TCSAFLUSH, &rawbuf) == -1) { + perror("clef resetting parent to raw "); + exit(-1); + } +} + + +void +#ifdef _NO_PROTO +flip_canonical(chann) + int chann; +#else +flip_canonical(int chann) +#endif +{ + if(tcsetattr(0, TCSAFLUSH, &canonbuf) == -1) { + perror("clef resetting parent to canonical "); + exit(-1); + } + if(INS_MODE) + Cursor_shape(5); + else + Cursor_shape(2); +} + +void +#ifdef _NO_PROTO +etc_get_next_line(line, nr, fd) + char *line; + int *nr; + int fd; +#else +etc_get_next_line(char * line,int * nr,int fd) +#endif +{ + *nr = read(fd, line, 1024); + if(*nr == -1) { + perror("Reading /etc/master"); + } + if(*nr == 0) { + fprintf(stderr, "Not found \n"); + } +} + +#define etc_whitespace(c) ((c == ' ' || c == '\t')?(1):(0)) + + +void +#ifdef _NO_PROTO +set_function_chars() +#else +set_function_chars(void) +#endif +{ + /* get the special characters */ + _INTR = childbuf.c_cc[VINTR]; + _QUIT = childbuf.c_cc[VQUIT]; + _ERASE = childbuf.c_cc[VERASE]; + _KILL = childbuf.c_cc[VKILL]; + _EOF = childbuf.c_cc[VEOF]; + _EOL = childbuf.c_cc[VEOL]; + return; +} + + +\start +Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 09:06:41 -0500 +From: "Bill Page" +To: +Cc: +Subject: RE: [Axiom-developer] AIM Instant Message + +Tim, + +On Wednesday, November 06, 2002 12:53 PM I wrote: +> +> I have the Windows instant messaging thing installed at +> home and it is supposed to be AOL compatible. + +Ooops, that's wrong. It is not compatible. Silly me. + +I will get AIM installed later today and see if we +can make it work. + +\start +Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 09:50:00 -0500 +From: "Bill Page" +To: +Cc: +Subject: [Axiom-developer] CVS access + +Tim, + +Ok I have successfully checked out the axiom module from +the CVS repository using the instructions at + + https://savannah.nongnu.org/cvs/?group=axiom + +Working from home, I do not have a "fascist firewall" to +worry about. So the anonymous access via :pserver: worked +fine the first time. The commands I used under the Cygwin +bash shell were: + +------------ + +$ cvs -d:pserver:anoncvs@subversions.gnu.org:/cvsroot/axiom login +(Logging in to anoncvs@subversions.gnu.org) +CVS password: + +Administrator@ASUS ~ +$ cvs -z3 -d:pserver:anoncvs@subversions.gnu.org:/cvsroot/axiom co axiom +cvs server: Updating axiom +cvs server: Updating axiom/license +U axiom/license/LICENSE.AXIOM +U axiom/license/LICENSE.BULL +U axiom/license/LICENSE.CCL +U axiom/license/LICENSE.EAY +U axiom/license/LICENSE.FSF +U axiom/license/LICENSE.NOWEB +U axiom/license/LICENSE.RAND +U axiom/license/LICENSE.SMC + +------------- + +"Developer CVS Access via SSH" was not necessary in order +to checkout the files. But I have generated another rsa1 +key for my machine here at home and added to my account +profile at Savannah. In an hour or so (to give Savannah +a chance to update their key database), I will try to do +the checkout again in "developer" mode. + +Regards, +Bill Page. + +On Wednesday, November 06, 2002 12:26 PM I wrote: +> ... +> I have continued to try to access the cvs repository but +> I am unable to get past the password prompt that is +> generated when I do +> +> $ cvs -dbillpage1@subversions.gnu.org:/cvsroot/axiom co axiom +> billpage1@subversions.gnu.org's password: Permission denied, +> please try again. billpage1@subversions.gnu.org's password: +> Permission denied, please try again. +> billpage1@subversions.gnu.org's password: Permission denied. +> cvs [checkout aborted]: end of file from server +> +> The documentation says that I would get this prompt if +> my public key is not being recognized. But I have double +> checked everything and I am quite sure that I have generated +> the rsa1 key properly. I've set protocol 1 in the ssh config +> file and I have uploaded the public key to Savannah (and +> waited the appropriate amount of time). So I don't think +> that's the problem. I also thought that maybe the rather +> strict firewall rules here where I am working might prevent +> an SSH connection, but the network guru's here assure me that +> SSH should be possible - although they warn that almost all +> non-standard port usage is disabled. I know that the +> :pserver: protocol on cvs uses port 2401 which I am quite +> sure is on the disabled list, so that explains why anonymous +> mode also does not work (if you have not done anything else +> to prevent it). +> +> Anyway, tomorrow I will try all this again from the other +> side of the firewall from my other machines at home. +> + +\start +Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 11:32:21 -0500 +From: "Bill Page" +To: +Cc: +Subject: [Axiom-developer] NAG demo version of AXIOM - flexlm license? + +Tim, + +It has occurred to me that during our work on the +open source version of AXIOM it would be very nice +to have a previous operational version of AXIOM +available for testing and comparison. To that end +I have installed the Windows PC version of AXIOM +that was sent to me by NAG several years ago. It is +on a Cdrom labelled + + NAG PC/CD Software Collection Edition 5 + PCCD/5 September 1999 + +I am able to install AXIOM successfully under +Windows XP after copying the install directory +to hard disk and setting NT compatibility mode on +the setup program, but when I run AXIOM, it is +looking for a flexlm license.dat file. The demo +arrangement was that you could ask NAG to send you +a license file by email that was valid for 30 days. +Of course I don't have such a file and therefore +AXIOM (or more specifically, "techexpl.exe") refuses +to run. I get a similar message when I try to run +the TTY interface version). + +BTW, what interface is included in the version of +AXIOM with which we will be working? + +Anyway, I was wondering if your relationship with +the people at NAG is "flex"ible enough that it would +be possible to ask someone there for a valid license +file? I understand, of course that NAG no longer +supports AXIOM as a product, but perhaps they are +sympathetic to the open source development project? + +I don't suppose it would be particularly easy (or +legal) to try to hack around the flex license check... +I was thinking that perhaps it would be possible +to find an old or revised version of techexpl.exe that +does not do this license check and would still be +compatible with the rest of AXIOM. Howe ever I am not +sufficiently familiar with how the interface between +techexplorer and AXIOM works (used to work?). There is +apparently a new version of techexplorer available for +IBM which runs as a browser plug-in. I presume that this +new version would not be compatible with AXIOM, right? + +What do you think? + +\start +Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 17:13:53 +0000 +From: Mike Dewar +To: Bill Page +Cc: daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org, Mike Dewar +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] NAG demo version of AXIOM - flexlm license? + +Dear Bill, + +I've already supplied Tim with a copy of the last release of Axiom for +this purpose. You won't get anywhere with trying to use other versions +of Techexplorer with that version of Axiom because (a) they are +incompatible, and (b) the license management is also in CCL. + +Techexplorer remains the property of IBM and while we have rights to +parts of it we were explicitly forbidden to allow the use of any of them +with OpenAxiom. The sources we released should allow you to build Axiom +under Windows but only with a fairly basic TTY-style interface. Due to +the complexity of the build process and (until NT 4 came along) the +general flakiness of Windows we always built all the Windows image files +for CCL on Unix, so I'd strongly recommend getting a Linux version +running first before you tackle Windows. + +We are very sympathetic to the Open Source project (we wouldn't have +gone to the considerable time and expense to release the code under an +open license otherwise), however I'm not sure whether we can issue new +licenses for old versons of Axiom since this might breach our "severance +agreement" with IBM. + +Regards, Mike. + + +On Thu, Nov 07, 2002 at 11:32:21AM -0500, Bill Page wrote: +> Tim, +> +> It has occurred to me that during our work on the +> open source version of AXIOM it would be very nice +> to have a previous operational version of AXIOM +> available for testing and comparison. To that end +> I have installed the Windows PC version of AXIOM +> that was sent to me by NAG several years ago. It is +> on a Cdrom labelled +> +> NAG PC/CD Software Collection Edition 5 +> PCCD/5 September 1999 +> +> I am able to install AXIOM successfully under +> Windows XP after copying the install directory +> to hard disk and setting NT compatibility mode on +> the setup program, but when I run AXIOM, it is +> looking for a flexlm license.dat file. The demo +> arrangement was that you could ask NAG to send you +> a license file by email that was valid for 30 days. +> Of course I don't have such a file and therefore +> AXIOM (or more specifically, "techexpl.exe") refuses +> to run. I get a similar message when I try to run +> the TTY interface version). +> +> BTW, what interface is included in the version of +> AXIOM with which we will be working? +> +> Anyway, I was wondering if your relationship with +> the people at NAG is "flex"ible enough that it would +> be possible to ask someone there for a valid license +> file? I understand, of course that NAG no longer +> supports AXIOM as a product, but perhaps they are +> sympathetic to the open source development project? +> +> I don't suppose it would be particularly easy (or +> legal) to try to hack around the flex license check... +> I was thinking that perhaps it would be possible +> to find an old or revised version of techexpl.exe that +> does not do this license check and would still be +> compatible with the rest of AXIOM. Howe ever I am not +> sufficiently familiar with how the interface between +> techexplorer and AXIOM works (used to work?). There is +> apparently a new version of techexplorer available for +> IBM which runs as a browser plug-in. I presume that this +> new version would not be compatible with AXIOM, right? +> +> What do you think? + +\start +Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 12:56:42 -0500 +From: "Bill Page" +To: +Cc: +Subject: [Axiom-developer] RE: CVS access + +Tim, + +On Thursday, November 07, 2002 9:50 AM I wrote: +> ... +> "Developer CVS Access via SSH" was not necessary in order +> to checkout the files. But I have generated another rsa1 +> key for my machine here at home and added to my account +> profile at Savannah. In an hour or so (to give Savannah +> a chance to update their key database), I will try to do +> the checkout again in "developer" mode. +> + +I still can't seem to get "developer CVS access" to work +at Savannah. Although I have generated an rsa1 key and +registered the public key in my Savannah account, I still +get the following results: + +--------------- + +$ cvs -z3 -dbillpage1@subversions.gnu.org:/cvsroot/axiom co axiom +billpage1@subversions.gnu.org's password: +Permission denied, please try again. +billpage1@subversions.gnu.org's password: +Permission denied, please try again. +billpage1@subversions.gnu.org's password: +Permission denied (publickey,password,keyboard-interactive). +cvs [checkout aborted]: end of file from server (consult above messages +if any) + +-------------- + +Note: The documentation says that I would only be asked +for a password if the authentication fails, but if I do +try to enter a password anyway, after three failed +attempts I don't always get the full + + Permission denied (publickey,password,keyboard-interactive). + +message. Sometimes it just says + + Permission denied. + +I am beginning to wonder whether this mode works only +if one is also registered as a "developer" for the +project. You explained earlier why at this time only +you are registered as a developer. + +\start +Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 16:15:29 -0500 +From: root +To: acn1@cam.ac.uk +CC: daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: posting CCL + +Arthur, + +Sorry about that. I collected the licenses from the source code. I'm +not sure why the license text differs but I must have made a mistake +somewhere. I've been using the distribution from the website you gave +me not the distribution from nag, as requested. I'll modify the +LICENSE.CCL file that is posted. I have no intention of changing any +licenses in any way. I'm working on the code on a different CVS site +so I can make my mistakes in private and, hopefully, minimize these +issues. Let me know if you see anything else that you'd like me to +change and I'll try to fix it. + +Tim + +----------------- attached file --------------------------------- + +I observe on the Savannah/Axiom web-site that you have posted some +licenses and expect to put CCL there soon. May I requeat that you check +the license that I have released CCL under and do not publish a confusing +file called LICENSE.CCL that differs from it, and that you do not put CCL +files on savannah until this has been checked. Sorry to be a pain! It is +good that things are moving forward. + +The only CCL files I have put in a deliberate public place are on +www.codemist.co.uk. CCL files you got via NAG are not intended (certainly +by me) to fall under any license that NAG applies to parts of Axiom that +it itself releases. What follows is the license file that I include in the +distribution on www.codemist.co.uk... + +=============================================================================== + + CCL Public License 1.0 + ====================== + + +Copyright (C) 2002, Codemist Ltd. All rights reserved. +acn@codemist.co.uk + + +Redistribution and use in source and binary forms, with or without +modification, are permitted provided that the following conditions +are met: + +(1) Redistributions of source code must retain the above copyright notice, +this list of conditions and the following disclaimer. + +(2) Redistributions in binary form must reproduce the above copyright +notice, +this list of conditions and the following disclaimer in the documentation +and/or other materials provided with the distribution. + +(3) Neither the name of Codemist nor the names of other contributors may +be used to endorse or promote products derived from this software without +specific prior written permission. + +(4) If you distribute a modified form or either source or binary code + (a) you must make the source form of these modification available + to Codemist; + (b) you grant Codemist a royalty-free license to use, modify + or redistribute your modifications without limitation; + (c) you represent that you are legally entitled to grant these rights + and that you are not providing Codemist with any code that violates + any law or breaches any contract. + +THIS SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED BY THE COPYRIGHT HOLDERS AND CONTRIBUTORS +"AS IS" AND ANY EXPRESS OR IMPLIED WARRANTIES, INCLUDING, BUT NOT +LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS +FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE ARE DISCLAIMED. IN NO EVENT SHALL THE COPYRIGHT +OWNER OR CONTRIBUTORS BE LIABLE FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, +SPECIAL, EXEMPLARY, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES (INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED +TO, PROCUREMENT OF SUBSTITUTE GOODS OR SERVICES; LOSS OF USE, DATA, OR +PROFITS; OR BUSINESS INTERRUPTION) HOWEVER CAUSED AND ON ANY THEORY OF +LIABILITY, WHETHER IN CONTRACT, STRICT LIABILITY, OR TORT (INCLUDING +NEGLIGENCE OR OTHERWISE) ARISING IN ANY WAY OUT OF THE USE OF THIS +SOFTWARE, EVEN IF ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGE. + +======================================================================== + + +\start +Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 17:22:34 -0500 +From: root +To: daly@idsi.net +CC: acn1@cam.ac.uk, daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Re: posting CCL + +The CVS tree has been updated with your change. -- Tim + +\start +Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 18:03:30 -0500 +From: root +To: bill.page1@sympatico.ca +CC: daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: CVS access + +Bill, + +The problem is likely that you are not using ssh to do the +connection since the CVS_RSH is not set. If it is not set +I believe that CVS defaults to using RSH and will ask you +to log in. You don't need a login and only need to be a +developer to have write access. I tried checking out the +code as anonymous and it worked. + +\start +Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 18:01:23 -0500 +From: root +To: bill.page1@sympatico.ca +CC: daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: CVS access + +Bill, + +Check that your shell variable CVS_RSH is set to "ssh". + +\start +Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 18:20:16 -0500 +From: root +To: bill.page1@sympatico.ca +CC: daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: NAG demo version of AXIOM - flexlm license? + +Bill, + +I helped install the flexlm hooks into Axiom when it was first +delivered so I'm well aware of how it works. The technical +aspects are not at issue. + +However, I have an agreement with NAG where they have asked +me not to distribute their version of Axiom. While I don't agree +with all the lawyers who have taken over programming I have to +say that NAG's been very cooperative and helpful. I see every +reason to do anything they ask. + +The down side, as you point out, is that developers other than +myself will not have a reference version of the system. However +this will change once we get a clean system build and the NAG +version will quickly become out of date. Thus the issue will be +gone in the near term. Until then it will be up to me to check +the resulting code against the NAG version. + +All I can counsel is patience. + +\start +Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 18:27:36 -0500 +From: root +To: bill.page1@sympatico.ca +CC: daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: CVS access + +Sigh. Actually, I was mistaken in my anonymous test which is unrelated +to the CVS_RSH shell variable. However, setting this variable should +cure the problem. If not, let me know. + +\start +Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 19:07:44 -0500 +From: "Bill Page" +To: +Cc: +Subject: RE: [Axiom-developer] Re: NAG demo version of AXIOM - flexlm license? + +Tim, + +On Thursday, November 07, 2002 6:20 PM you wrote: +> ... +> The down side, as you point out, is that developers other +> than myself will not have a reference version of the system. +> However this will change once we get a clean system build and +> the NAG version will quickly become out of date. Thus the +> issue will be gone in the near term. Until then it will be up +> to me to check the resulting code against the NAG version. +> +> All I can counsel is patience. +> + +No problem. I'm just trying to get something interesting +started here on my side. + +And thanks also to Mike Dewar for explaining NAG's view +point. I understand why what I asked might be difficult. +I must say that a do really appreciate all of the efforts +that the people at NAG have made to make the source code +for this new "OpenAxiom" available. Thank you very much +indeed! + +\start +Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 18:47:15 -0500 +From: root +To: bill.page1@sympatico.ca +CC: daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: CVS access + +Ummm, that would make no sense so we must be missing something. +Why would an anonymous user be able to check out the source tree +but not the developer? + +I'll create another id and try it from there. + +\start +Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 19:07:46 -0500 +From: root +To: bill.page1@sympatico.ca +CC: daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: CVS access + +I've created a new userid, new key pair and registered a new key. +I noticed in the process that there is a checkbox on the +"account configuration" page titled "Enable CVS admin commands". +I didn't check that (yet) but that might be related. +In any case, I'll let you know how I solve this. + +\start +Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 18:54:35 -0500 +From: "Bill Page" +To: +Cc: +Subject: [Axiom-developer] RE: CVS access + +Tim, + +On Thursday, November 07, 2002 6:01 PM you wrote: +> +> Check that your shell variable CVS_RSH is set to "ssh". +> + +Yes, I set CVS_RSH to "ssh" as described at + + https://savannah.nongnu.org/cvs/?group=axiom + +> The problem is likely that you are not using ssh to do the +> connection since the CVS_RSH is not set. If it is not set I +> believe that CVS defaults to using RSH and will ask you to +> log in. + +You are right that I get a different error message +if I do not set CVS_RSH to "ssh", however it does +not work when it is set correctly. If I use the +-t trace option on cvs, I can see that it attempts +to use ssh as the following shell output shows + +-------- + +Administrator@ASUS ~ +$ export CVS_RSH=ssh + +Administrator@ASUS ~ +$ cvs -t -dbillpage1@subversions.gnu.org:/cvsroot/axiom co axiom +cvs checkout: notice: main loop with +CVSROOT=billpage1@subversions.gnu.org:/cvsr +oot/axiom + -> Starting server: ssh subversions.gnu.org -l billpage1 cvs server +billpage1@subversions.gnu.org's password: +Permission denied, please try again. +billpage1@subversions.gnu.org's password: +Permission denied, please try again. +billpage1@subversions.gnu.org's password: +Permission denied. +cvs [checkout aborted]: end of file from server (consult above +messages if any) + +Administrator@ASUS ~ +$ + +----------------- + +In fact if I just try to start a secure shell with the +usual command + +$ ssh subversions.gnu.org -l billpage1 cvs server + +I get the same result. + +> You don't need a login and only need to be a +> developer to have write access. I tried checking out +> the code as anonymous and it worked. + +Yes as I said in my earlier message it is possible to +checkout the code as anoncvs via the :pserver: protocol. +In this case no rsa1 key and no ssh is required. This +is described on the Savannah web page I referred to +above. + +It seems to me that the ssh type of secure access +would only be required by someone who is intending +to check code back into the repository and perhaps +the check out function does not work in the case of +using ssh if the user is not also been authorized to +check code in. + +\start +Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 21:01:07 -0500 +From: root +To: bill.page1@sympatico.ca, miked@nag.co.uk, rubey@labri.fr, + toffin@math.unicaen.fr, axiom-developer@nongnu.org, tim@tenkan.org +Subject: [Axiom-developer] accounts on tenkan + +Please send a note to tim@tenkan.org (no, it is not me) +and tell him your preferred userid and password. He will +set you up with all the necessary things to help develop +Axiom. Tenkan.org is the site where we can "play in the +sandbox" until we work out the coordination issues. + +\start +Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 06:47:37 -0500 +From: root +To: bill.page1@sympatico.ca, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Subject: [Axiom-developer] AIM + +We can't use the AIM client. Somebody broke into my box last night +thru that door. Sigh. + +\start +Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 10:23:44 -0500 +From: "Bill Page" +To: , +Subject: [Axiom-developer] RE: AIM + + +Tim, + +Gee, you must live in a rough cyber neighborhood ... +I hope everything is ok. + +Are you running a firewall (iptables with NAT or similar +on Linux)? If not it's not that hard to setup and there +are several very simple "How-To's" available that explain +it quite clearly. I connect to the Internet that way and +share the connection with Windows and a wireless LAN here +at home. + +Bill. + +> -----Original Message----- +> From: root [mailto:daly@idsi.net] +> Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 6:48 AM +> To: bill.page1@sympatico.ca; axiom-developer@nongnu.org +> Subject: AIM +> +> +> We can't use the AIM client. Somebody broke into my box last +> night thru that door. Sigh. + +\start +Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 22:28:44 -0500 +From: root +To: bill.page1@sympatico.ca +CC: tim@tenkan.org, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: accounts on tenkan + + +> Hello Tim and Tim, + +tim@tenkan.org is my son. + +> I take it that you are not the same person but somehow +> related? +> +> Thanks for setting up the account. I was able to login +> and to check out files. I did +> +> $ cvs ... co axiom +> +> and I am currently in middle of the process of downloading +> the whole set of project files. It is taking a rather long +> time to download - there are some BIG files in the zips +> directory. Here are a few initial questions. I'll probably +> have more when the download is done and I've had a change +> to look them over a little better. + +Yes, there are some "serious big files" in zips at the moment. +There are 3 lisp platforms that Axiom is planned to run on, each +of which has advantages: CCL (Codemist Common Lisp), GCL (Gnu +Common Lisp) and CMUCL (Carnegie-Mellon University Common Lisp). +The current Makefile will build CCL from the lsp/ccl subtree and +GCL from the zips directory. The next version (or the one thereafter) +will also build CMUCL. + +> I noticed that the directory structure is a little odd +> +> axiom +> new +> new +> license +> lsp +> src +> zips +> original +> ... +> +> Did you intend to have two subdirectories names new? +> Is there a purpose for the outter most one? + +The axiom/new/new is a mistake but there is no way to delete directories +thru cvs which is why i set up a practice site. The mistake was not +intentional (by definition, I guess). + +The original directory was also a test case and can be ignored. + +> +> BTW, the serious big files in zips seem to be mostly +> Common Lisp stuff? How does that fit in compared to the +> Codemist Lisp? +> +> Finally, where should I start? Will the Makefile.pamphlet +> in the .../lsp/ subdirectory build a working CCL? It still +> looks a little "skinny" in terms of documentation... + +You should read the axiom/new/new/Makefile.dvi file (assuming xdvi +works on your machine. otherwise you might need to convert it to +pdf or ps. give me some feedback on formats). In theory you only +need change to axiom/new/new and type make. save a console trace +and we can fix what fails. + +The Makefile is set up so you can type + make clean +and it will reset you back to the initial conditions. if you +make changes to any files in the source tree they will get +re-expanded when you next type + make +i go to great lengths to cache work so the minimum work +necessary to build a system occurs. However the make clean +will assume you want to start fresh and will destroy everything +(except changes in the src directory). + +You can comment out the build of either ccl or gcl in the +new/lsp/Makefile.pamphlet file (never change the raw Makefile as +it gets rewritten) and the change will happen in the next build. + +Alternatively you can comment out the call in the new/Makefile.pamphlet +(which is the top level Makefile source and it treated as special) +but you need to recreate the Makefile by hand. Building the top level +Makefile will assume that you have the mnt/linux/bin/document command +and the mnt/linux/bin/tex/noweb.sty file. These are automatically +created by the + make +command. Once the first make is done you can make changes in the +new/Makefile.pamphlet file and recreate it by typing: + mnt/linux/bin/document Makefile +(note: not Makefile.pamphlet, just Makefile) + +Except for the top level Makefile every other change to the system +should happen magically by typing make in the axiom/new/new directory. +If it doesn't let me know and I'll fix it. The Makefile.pamphlet tree +is supposed to document and automate all of the knowledge necessary +to build a system from scratch. + +To test the result you can do: + cd mnt/linux/bin + echo "(+ 2 2)" | ./ccl + echo "(+ 2 2)" | ./gcl + +The correct answer is left up to the student but whatever it is +they should be = (but not eq). + +> +> On my side: I've spent some of my spare time today trying +> to build a working version of TeXmacs under Cygwin. It is +> supposed to be posssible but still in "testing" mode +> according to their web site, but very few details were +> provided. So far no success. I've connected to their email +> list for further help. + +As for TeXmacs just send a message to Joris van der Hoeven. He's +exceptional at responding (vdhoeven@texmacs.org). Andrey G. Grozin + is also quite responsive. + +\start +Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 23:09:09 -0500 +From: root +To: "Bill Page" +Cc: daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Subject: [Axiom-developer] documentation + +Oh, right. I forgot to mention that you can type: + cd axiom/new/new + make document +and it will make the directory structure in the INT +subdirectory mirroring the top level structure: + new + int + lsp + ccl + src + src + lib +... + +Each subdirectory should contain .dvi files which either are a more +complete explanation of the sources or need to be written. There +should be one .dvi file for each .pamphlet file in the lsp and source +trees. + +\start +Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 20:50:41 -0500 +From: root +To: bill.page1@sympatico.ca +CC: daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: first steps + +well, THAT went poorly :-) + +I guess I should have mentioned that you can change the environment +variables from their default values to your new values. The only +one you should have to change is the SPAD variable. So, assuming +you tried to install axiom in /usr/local try: + + cd /usr/local/axiom + make SPAD=/usr/local/axiom + +You could either eliminate the extra level of new or include it in +the command line. It won't be there in the final system. + +There is a certain catch-22 about using the document command on +the root Makefile. I'll have to give it a bit more thought. + +noweb will generate non-fatal errors (the error 1 ignored message) +This is normal in my setup. I have to figure out why but the build +completes fine with the few errors that do occur. + +The noweb is part of the 'all' stanza but it is only made the first +time. Once the noweb stanza successfully completes you'll find a +file 'noweb' in the top level directory. If this file exists the +Makefile will not attempt to build noweb. This is documented in +the Makefile.pamphlet file. Erasing this file will cause noweb to +be rebuilt. + +If you want you can build noweb yourself and do a + cd /usr/local/axiom + touch noweb +and the Makefile will no longer attempt to build noweb. Of course +you'll have to do the copy of the final commands into the +$SPAD/mnt/linux/bin directory. + +The "console read hang" is due to a syntax error introduced into the +Makefile.pamphlet file in src/Makefile.pamphlet. In order to reduce +the amount of tex-related output the output is redirected to +$SPAD/obj/tmp/trace. Look at this file for the error. Methinks +you must have changed this file. + +Each echoed line from a Makefile stanza has a locally unique number. +You can find problems by looking at the last "Entering directory" +message (which tells you which Makefile will be run) and then +searching the makefile for the unique number. This will tell you +the failing stanza. Search for 'echo' and you should see them. + +Your system build failed because you don't have the Xlib libraries. +You need the following RPMS installed to build the system on RedHat 8.0 +XFree86-devel-4.2.0-72.i386.rpm (for /usr/X11R6/include/X11/Xlib.h) + +Hope this helps. + +Tim + +========================= attached file ========================= + +Tim, + +Here is the result of my first attempt to use your +Makefile.pamphlet. Perhaps I have included more details +below then you need, but I thought I would give you a +flavor of what I am seeing so far. Please let me know +if I should continue like this or be more brief. + +--------- +$ cd /usr/src/axiom/new + +Administrator@CANDIS-SYSADM1 /usr/src/axiom/new +$ ls +CVS Makefile Makefile.dvi Makefile.pamphlet README license lsp src zips + +Administrator@CANDIS-SYSADM1 /usr/src/axiom/new +$ make +3 checking directory structure +4 Environment: SPAD=/home/axiomgnu/new LSP=/home/axiomgnu/new/lsp SRC=/home/axio +mgnu/new/src INT=/home/axiomgnu/new/int OBJ=/home/axiomgnu/new/obj SYS=linux MNT +=/home/axiomgnu/new/mnt ZIPS=/home/axiomgnu/new/zips SPADBIN=/home/axiomgnu/new/ +mnt/linux/bin CC=gcc RANLIB=ranlib CCLBASE=/home/axiomgnu/new/obj/linux/ccl/ccll +isp TMP=/home/axiomgnu/new/obj/tmp +cp: cannot stat `/home/axiomgnu/new/src/scripts/*': No such file or directory +make: *** [rootdirs] Error 1 + +Administrator@CANDIS-SYSADM1 /usr/src/axiom/new +$ + +------------ + +Note first of all that I eliminated the extra level of +/new/new so compared to what I got from cvs + + axiom/new/* --> axiom/* + +Secondly on my system under Cygwin, it is normal to load +new source files in /usr/new, hence the files are in + + /usr/src/axiom + +As the above console trace shows, the make stopped when it +could now find the /home/axiomgnu/new directory pointed to +by the variable SPAD. + +I read the Makefile.dvi (after converting it to a .pdf file) +but did not see any mention of a hard coded directory +name. Anyway, I continued by changing the SPAD= statement +in the Makefile.pamphlet file. But when I tried to use the +command + + document Makefile + +of course my system did not find the document script. +Instead I entered the commands + + notangle -t8 Makefile.pamphlet > Makefile.new + mv Makefile Makefile.old + mv Makefile.new Makefile + +but then the build process aborted during the make of +noweb as shown below + +------------------- + +Administrator@CANDIS-SYSADM1 /usr/src/axiom/new +$ pwd +/usr/src/axiom/new + +Administrator@CANDIS-SYSADM1 /usr/src/axiom/new +$ vi Makefile.pamphlet + +Administrator@CANDIS-SYSADM1 /usr/src/axiom/new +$ notangle -t8 Makefile.pamphlet > Makefile.new + +Administrator@CANDIS-SYSADM1 /usr/src/axiom/new +$ ls -l +total 75 +drwxrwxrwx 2 Administ None 0 Nov 12 19:31 CVS +-rwxrwxrwx 1 Administ None 2850 Nov 6 20:17 Makefile +-rwxrwxrwx 1 Administ None 39176 Nov 6 20:17 Makefile.dvi +-rw-rw-rw- 1 Administ None 2850 Nov 12 19:52 Makefile.new +-rwxrwxrwx 1 Administ None 24812 Nov 12 19:52 Makefile.pamphlet +-rwxrwxrwx 1 Administ None 106 Nov 6 20:17 README +drwxrwxrwx 3 Administ None 4096 Nov 12 19:31 license +drwxrwxrwx 4 Administ None 0 Nov 12 19:31 lsp +drwxrwxrwx 6 Administ None 0 Nov 12 19:31 src +drwxrwxrwx 4 Administ None 0 Nov 12 19:30 zips + +Administrator@CANDIS-SYSADM1 /usr/src/axiom/new +$ mv Makefile Makefile.old + +Administrator@CANDIS-SYSADM1 /usr/src/axiom/new +$ mv Makefile.new Makefile + +Administrator@CANDIS-SYSADM1 /usr/src/axiom/new +$ make +3 checking directory structure +4 Environment: SPAD=/usr/src/axiom/new LSP=/usr/src/axiom/new/lsp SRC=/usr/src/a +xiom/new/src INT=/usr/src/axiom/new/int OBJ=/usr/src/axiom/new/obj SYS=linux MNT +=/usr/src/axiom/new/mnt ZIPS=/usr/src/axiom/new/zips SPADBIN=/usr/src/axiom/new/ +mnt/linux/bin CC=gcc RANLIB=ranlib CCLBASE=/usr/src/axiom/new/obj/linux/ccl/ccll +isp TMP=/usr/src/axiom/new/obj/tmp +5 making noweb +make[1]: [install-shell] Error 1 (ignored) +make[1]: [install-code] Error 1 (ignored) +strip: c/nt: No such file or directory +strip: c/markup: No such file or directory +strip: c/mnt: No such file or directory +strip: c/finduses: No such file or directory +make[1]: *** [install-code] Error 1 +make: *** [noweb] Error 2 + +Administrator@CANDIS-SYSADM1 /usr/src/axiom/new +$ + +------------------- + +I wonder whether the make of noweb should be included in +the 'all' stanza. I removed it from Makefile.pamphlet and +then tried again but it stopped apparently waiting for +input from the console ... strange. + +--------------- + +Administrator@CANDIS-SYSADM1 /usr/src/axiom/new +$ vi Makefile.pamphlet + +Administrator@CANDIS-SYSADM1 /usr/src/axiom/new +$ notangle -t8 Makefile.pamphlet > Makefile.new + +Administrator@CANDIS-SYSADM1 /usr/src/axiom/new +$ mv Makefile.new Makefile + +Administrator@CANDIS-SYSADM1 /usr/src/axiom/new +$ make +3 checking directory structure +4 Environment: SPAD=/usr/src/axiom/new LSP=/usr/src/axiom/new/lsp SRC=/usr/src/a +xiom/new/src INT=/usr/src/axiom/new/int OBJ=/usr/src/axiom/new/obj SYS=linux MNT +=/usr/src/axiom/new/mnt ZIPS=/usr/src/axiom/new/zips SPADBIN=/usr/src/axiom/new/ +mnt/linux/bin CC=gcc RANLIB=ranlib CCLBASE=/usr/src/axiom/new/obj/linux/ccl/ccll +isp TMP=/usr/src/axiom/new/obj/tmp +8 making /usr/src/axiom/new/src/Makefile from /usr/src/axiom/new/src/Makefile.pa +mphlet + +------------- + +Pressing control-D several times (means end of file on +unix), seemed to allow the build process to continue but +it eventually failed again + +---------- + +7 making /usr/src/axiom/new/src +make[1]: Entering directory `/usr/src/axiom/new/src' +3 making /usr/src/axiom/new/src/scripts/Makefile from /usr/src/axiom/new/src/scr +ipts/Makefile.pamphlet +2 making /usr/src/axiom/new/src/scripts +make[2]: Entering directory `/usr/src/axiom/new/src/scripts' +1 making /usr/src/axiom/new/src/scripts +make[2]: Leaving directory `/usr/src/axiom/new/src/scripts' +7 making /usr/src/axiom/new/src/lib/Makefile from /usr/src/axiom/new/src/lib/Mak +efile.pamphlet +6 making /usr/src/axiom/new/src/lib +make[2]: Entering directory `/usr/src/axiom/new/src/lib' +2 making /usr/src/axiom/new/int/lib/bsdsignal.c from /usr/src/axiom/new/src/lib/ +bsdsignal.c.pamphlet +3 making /usr/src/axiom/new/obj/linux/lib/bsdsignal.o from /usr/src/axiom/new/in +t/lib/bsdsignal.c +8 making /usr/src/axiom/new/int/lib/cursor.c from /usr/src/axiom/new/src/lib/cur +sor.c.pamphlet +9 making /usr/src/axiom/new/obj/linux/lib/cursor.o from /usr/src/axiom/new/int/l +ib/cursor.c +11 making /usr/src/axiom/new/int/lib/edin.c from /usr/src/axiom/new/src/lib/edin +.c.pamphlet +12 making /usr/src/axiom/new/obj/linux/lib/edin.o from /usr/src/axiom/new/int/li +b/edin.c +14 making /usr/src/axiom/new/int/lib/fnct_key.c from /usr/src/axiom/new/src/lib/ +fnct_key.c.pamphlet +15 making /usr/src/axiom/new/obj/linux/lib/fnct_key.o from /usr/src/axiom/new/in +t/lib/fnct_key.c +17 making /usr/src/axiom/new/int/lib/halloc.c from /usr/src/axiom/new/src/lib/ha +lloc.c.pamphlet +18 making /usr/src/axiom/new/obj/linux/lib/halloc.o from /usr/src/axiom/new/int/ +lib/halloc.c +20 making /usr/src/axiom/new/int/lib/openpty.c from /usr/src/axiom/new/src/lib/o +penpty.c.pamphlet +21 making /usr/src/axiom/new/obj/linux/lib/openpty.o from /usr/src/axiom/new/int +/lib/openpty.c +23 making /usr/src/axiom/new/int/lib/pixmap.c from /usr/src/axiom/new/src/lib/pi +xmap.c.pamphlet +24 making /usr/src/axiom/new/obj/linux/lib/pixmap.o from /usr/src/axiom/new/int/ +lib/pixmap.c +/usr/src/axiom/new/int/lib/pixmap.c:5:22: X11/Xlib.h: No such file or directory +/usr/src/axiom/new/int/lib/pixmap.c:6:23: X11/Xutil.h: No such file or directory + +/usr/src/axiom/new/int/lib/pixmap.c:7:21: X11/Xos.h: No such file or directory +In file included from /usr/src/axiom/new/int/lib/pixmap.c:17: +/usr/src/axiom/new/src/include/spadcolors.h:3:19: X11/X.h: No such file or direc +tory +In file included from /usr/src/axiom/new/int/lib/pixmap.c:17: +/usr/src/axiom/new/src/include/spadcolors.h:27: parse error before "colorMap" +/usr/src/axiom/new/src/include/spadcolors.h:27: warning: data definition has no +type or storage class +In file included from /usr/src/axiom/new/int/lib/pixmap.c:19: +/usr/src/axiom/new/src/include/pixmap.H1:9: parse error before '*' token +/usr/src/axiom/new/src/include/pixmap.H1:10: parse error before '*' token +In file included from /usr/src/axiom/new/int/lib/pixmap.c:21: +/usr/src/axiom/new/src/include/spadcolors.H1:15: parse error before '*' token +/usr/src/axiom/new/src/include/spadcolors.H1:16: parse error before '*' token +/usr/src/axiom/new/src/include/spadcolors.H1:17: parse error before '*' token +/usr/src/axiom/new/src/include/spadcolors.H1:19: parse error before '*' token +/usr/src/axiom/new/src/include/spadcolors.H1:20: parse error before '*' token +In file included from /usr/src/axiom/new/int/lib/pixmap.c:260: +/usr/src/axiom/new/src/include/xpm.h:45:23: X11/Xlib.h: No such file or director +y +/usr/src/axiom/new/src/include/xpm.h:46:24: X11/Xutil.h: No such file or directo +ry +In file included from /usr/src/axiom/new/int/lib/pixmap.c:260: +/usr/src/axiom/new/src/include/xpm.h:121: parse error before '*' token +/usr/src/axiom/new/src/include/xpm.h:131: parse error before '*' token +/usr/src/axiom/new/src/include/xpm.h:143: parse error before "Visual" +/usr/src/axiom/new/src/include/xpm.h:143: warning: no semicolon at end of struct + or union +/usr/src/axiom/new/src/include/xpm.h:144: warning: data definition has no type o +r storage class +/usr/src/axiom/new/src/include/xpm.h:175: parse error before "exactColors" +/usr/src/axiom/new/src/include/xpm.h:175: warning: data definition has no type o +r storage class +/usr/src/axiom/new/src/include/xpm.h:184: parse error before "nalloc_pixels" +/usr/src/axiom/new/src/include/xpm.h:184: warning: data definition has no type o +r storage class +/usr/src/axiom/new/src/include/xpm.h:187: parse error before "alloc_close_colors +" +/usr/src/axiom/new/src/include/xpm.h:187: warning: data definition has no type o +r storage class +/usr/src/axiom/new/src/include/xpm.h:199: parse error before '}' token +/usr/src/axiom/new/src/include/xpm.h:199: warning: data definition has no type o +r storage class +/usr/src/axiom/new/src/include/xpm.h:285: parse error before '*' token +/usr/src/axiom/new/src/include/xpm.h:291: parse error before '*' token +/usr/src/axiom/new/src/include/xpm.h:298: parse error before '*' token +/usr/src/axiom/new/src/include/xpm.h:304: parse error before '*' token +/usr/src/axiom/new/src/include/xpm.h:311: parse error before '*' token +/usr/src/axiom/new/src/include/xpm.h:317: parse error before '*' token +/usr/src/axiom/new/src/include/xpm.h:323: parse error before '*' token +/usr/src/axiom/new/src/include/xpm.h:329: parse error before '*' token +/usr/src/axiom/new/src/include/xpm.h:335: parse error before '*' token +/usr/src/axiom/new/src/include/xpm.h:342: parse error before '*' token +/usr/src/axiom/new/src/include/xpm.h:348: parse error before '*' token +/usr/src/axiom/new/src/include/xpm.h:354: parse error before '*' token +/usr/src/axiom/new/src/include/xpm.h:363: parse error before '*' token +/usr/src/axiom/new/src/include/xpm.h:386: parse error before '*' token +/usr/src/axiom/new/src/include/xpm.h:392: parse error before '*' token +/usr/src/axiom/new/src/include/xpm.h:398: parse error before '*' token +/usr/src/axiom/new/src/include/xpm.h:404: parse error before '*' token +/usr/src/axiom/new/int/lib/pixmap.c:271: parse error before '*' token +/usr/src/axiom/new/int/lib/pixmap.c: In function `read_pixmap_file': +/usr/src/axiom/new/int/lib/pixmap.c:274: parse error before "attr" +/usr/src/axiom/new/int/lib/pixmap.c:275: `XImage' undeclared (first use in this +function) +/usr/src/axiom/new/int/lib/pixmap.c:275: (Each undeclared identifier is reported + only once +/usr/src/axiom/new/int/lib/pixmap.c:275: for each function it appears in.) +/usr/src/axiom/new/int/lib/pixmap.c:275: `xireturn' undeclared (first use in thi +s function) +/usr/src/axiom/new/int/lib/pixmap.c:278: `attr' undeclared (first use in this fu +nction) +/usr/src/axiom/new/int/lib/pixmap.c:280: `ZPixmap' undeclared (first use in this + function) +/usr/src/axiom/new/int/lib/pixmap.c:286: `False' undeclared (first use in this f +unction) +/usr/src/axiom/new/int/lib/pixmap.c:294: `display' undeclared (first use in this + function) +/usr/src/axiom/new/int/lib/pixmap.c:294: `filename' undeclared (first use in thi +s function) +/usr/src/axiom/new/int/lib/pixmap.c:294: `xi' undeclared (first use in this func +tion) +/usr/src/axiom/new/int/lib/pixmap.c:295: invalid type argument of `unary *' +/usr/src/axiom/new/int/lib/pixmap.c:296: invalid type argument of `unary *' +/usr/src/axiom/new/int/lib/pixmap.c: At top level: +/usr/src/axiom/new/int/lib/pixmap.c:314: parse error before '*' token +/usr/src/axiom/new/int/lib/pixmap.c: In function `write_pixmap_file': +/usr/src/axiom/new/int/lib/pixmap.c:317: parse error before "attr" +/usr/src/axiom/new/int/lib/pixmap.c:318: `XImage' undeclared (first use in this +function) +/usr/src/axiom/new/int/lib/pixmap.c:318: `xi' undeclared (first use in this func +tion) +/usr/src/axiom/new/int/lib/pixmap.c:318: `xireturn' undeclared (first use in thi +s function) +/usr/src/axiom/new/int/lib/pixmap.c:322: `dsp' undeclared (first use in this fun +ction) +/usr/src/axiom/new/int/lib/pixmap.c:322: `wid' undeclared (first use in this fun +ction) +/usr/src/axiom/new/int/lib/pixmap.c:322: `x' undeclared (first use in this funct +ion) +/usr/src/axiom/new/int/lib/pixmap.c:322: `y' undeclared (first use in this funct +ion) +/usr/src/axiom/new/int/lib/pixmap.c:322: `AllPlanes' undeclared (first use in th +is function) +/usr/src/axiom/new/int/lib/pixmap.c:322: `ZPixmap' undeclared (first use in this + function) +/usr/src/axiom/new/int/lib/pixmap.c:324: `fn' undeclared (first use in this func +tion) +make[2]: *** [/usr/src/axiom/new/obj/linux/lib/pixmap.o] Error 1 +make[2]: Leaving directory `/usr/src/axiom/new/src/lib' +make[1]: *** [libdir] Error 2 +make[1]: Leaving directory `/usr/src/axiom/new/src' +make: *** [srcdir] Error 2 + +Administrator@CANDIS-SYSADM1 /usr/src/axiom/new +$ + +---------------- + +So that's it for now, maybe you can see some simple things +I might do to make make work a little better. + +\start +Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 21:02:47 -0500 +From: root +To: bill.page1@sympatico.ca +CC: daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Subject: [Axiom-developer] First steps, part-dieu + +Ok, I mistyped: + +If you installed in /usr/local/axiom you need to set SPAD to include new: + + cd /usr/local/axiom/new + make SPAD=/usr/local/axiom/new + +also the noweb file is in the new directory so the cmds should read: + + cd /usr/local/axiom/new + touch noweb + +I'm not sure if rpm files will install in Cygwin. If not we need to +find a different method for creating the /usr/X11R6/include/X11 files. + +\start +Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 22:33:07 -0500 +From: Bill Page +To: +CC: , +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: first steps + +Tim, + +On 2002/11/12 Tue PM 08:50:41 EST you wrote: +> +> well, THAT went poorly :-) +> + +Not to worry ... I know I am making it hard for myself +trying to do this on cygwin right away. + +> I guess I should have mentioned that you can change the +> environment variables from their default values to your +> new values. The only one you should have to change is the +> SPAD variable. So, assuming you tried to install axiom +> in /usr/local try: +> +> cd /usr/local/axiom +> make SPAD=/usr/local/axiom +> + +Yes, this is good. I think it should be in the Makefile.dvi +and/or in the README file. + +> ... +> If you want you can build noweb yourself and do a +> cd /usr/local/axiom +> touch noweb +> and the Makefile will no longer attempt to build noweb. +> Of course you'll have to do the copy of the final +> commands into the $SPAD/mnt/linux/bin directory. +> + +Ok I see how that can work. At the present time the +commands that you included to make noweb fail under +cygwin. I have already installed noweb is a different +way. Some users also may have noweb installed and may +not want to rebuild it. So again, this would be a good +note to put in the README file. Perhaps there is some +reliable way to tell whether noweb has already been +installed? Of course it might be in different places on +different systems. + +> The "console read hang" is due to a syntax error +> introduced into the Makefile.pamphlet file in +> src/Makefile.pamphlet. In order to reduce the amount of +> tex-related output the output is redirected to +> $SPAD/obj/tmp/trace. Look at this file for the error. +> Methinks you must have changed this file. +> + +The contents of the trace file shows that I am missing +the noweb.sty file from my LaTex directory. Apparently +it was latex that was waiting for console input. Perhaps +this is an artifact of the fact that I did not let the +Makefile build noweb for me? In this case I may have to +add the file manually to the + + /usr/share/texmf/tex/latex/base + +directory. + +------------ + +Administrator@CANDIS-SYSADM1 /usr/src/axiom/new/obj/tmp +$ cat trace +This is TeX, Version 3.14159 (Web2C 7.3.7) +(./Makefile.tex +LaTeX2e <2001/06/01> +Babel and hyphenation patterns for american, french, german, ngerman, n +ohyphenation, loaded. +(/usr/share/texmf/tex/latex/base/article.cls +Document Class: article 2001/04/21 v1.4e Standard LaTeX document class +(/usr/share/texmf/tex/latex/base/size10.clo)) + +! LaTeX Error: File `noweb.sty' not found. + +Type X to quit or to proceed, +or enter new name. (Default extension: sty) + +Enter file name: +! Emergency stop. + + +l.3 \begin + {document}^^M +No pages of output. +Transcript written on Makefile.log. +This is TeX, Version 3.14159 (Web2C 7.3.7) +(./Makefile.tex +LaTeX2e <2001/06/01> +Babel and hyphenation patterns for american, french, german, ngerman, n +ohyphenation, loaded. +(/usr/share/texmf/tex/latex/base/article.cls +Document Class: article 2001/04/21 v1.4e Standard LaTeX document class +(/usr/share/texmf/tex/latex/base/size10.clo)) + +! LaTeX Error: File `noweb.sty' not found. + +Type X to quit or to proceed, +or enter new name. (Default extension: sty) + +Enter file name: +! Emergency stop. + + +l.3 \begin + {document}^^M +No pages of output. +Transcript written on Makefile.log. + +Administrator@CANDIS-SYSADM1 /usr/src/axiom/new/obj/tmp +$ + +----------------- + +> +> Your system build failed because you don't have the Xlib +> libraries. You need the following RPMS installed to build +> the system on RedHat 8.0 XFree86-devel-4.2.0-72.i386.rpm +> (for /usr/X11R6/include/X11/Xlib.h) + +Hmmm... I did install the cywin standard XFree86 stuff but +maybe that does not include the libraries? This is going +to take a litte more research. + +> +> Hope this helps. +> + +Yes, it helped a lot. I let you know how I progress. + +\start +Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 22:28:01 -0500 +From: root +To: bill.page1@sympatico.ca +CC: daly@idsi.net, daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: first steps + +Touching any pamphlet file will cause it to be rebuilt during +the make. This requires noweb to exist. + +If the make fails to install noweb then the +$SPAD/mnt/linux/bin/tex/noweb.sty file and the +$SPAD/mnt/linux/bin/notangle and $SPAD/mnt/linux/bin/noweave +commands will not exist. These two commands and the style file +are required to rebuild a pamphlet. They are built as part of +the noweb build. + +Additionally, there is a command called 'document' in +$SPAD/src/scripts that gets copied to $SPAD/mnt/linux/bin +and is used to build the pamphlet files. + +You can create these by hand as follows: + + cd /usr/local/axiom/new + mkdir -p mnt/linux/bin/tex + cp (whereEverItExists)/notangle mnt/linux/bin + cp (whereEverItExists)/noweave mnt/linux/bin + cp (whereEverItExists)/noweb.sty mnt/linux/bin/tex + cp src/scripts/* /mnt/linux/bin + +The mkdir -p option creates any subdirectories that don't +exist on the specified path if necessary. Once these files +exist in mnt/linux/bin you need to update your PATH: + +export PATH=/usr/local/axiom/new/mnt/linux/bin:$PATH + +and the notangle, noweave and document commands should exist. + +\start +Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 20:32:11 -0500 +From: "Bill Page" +To: +Cc: +Subject: [Axiom-developer] making ccl on cygwin + +Tim, + +I have been trying hard to get CCL to compile +and link under Cygwin. I have resolved most +problems but I've run into a problem with the +"rusty" coding in CCL relating to remote procedure +calls (rpc). There are several variants of the +rpc api, the one being used by CCL is originally +from SUN. Cygwin does not normally include this +so the #include "rpc/rpc.h" is not defined +instead there is a "win32/rpc.h" which has a +somewhat different set of interface routines +and parameters. I was able to locate a version +of the SUN rpc which had been adapted for Cygwin +but it is not being directly maintained by the +Cygwin people. Anyway, after installing it +successfully, I got further with the CCL compile +but then ran into some C code that does not +conform to the standards expected by gcc version +3.2 (at least not with the options that the +Makefile contains). + +What version of C compiler are you using? Is +it gcc 3.2 on Red Hat 8.0 linux or some other? + +Anyway, I was wondering what you might think +about a some surgery to get rid of what appears +to be some "code rot" in this part of CCL? Is +rpc really needed for Axiom? I can imagine that +it might be relevant to someone interested in +parallel processing versions etc. but I expect +that anyone serious about doing this sort of +development would prefer a more modern inter- +process communication protocol than rpc? No? + +What do you think? + +\start +Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 20:50:39 -0500 +From: root +To: bill.page1@sympatico.ca +CC: daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: making ccl on cygwin + +Bill, + +Two possible directions: + +First, I'm told that Cygwin has been replaced with native code +that runs directly in Windows which, of course, would require +that you redo your whole environment and seems a bit extreme. + +Second, I believe that rpc is used for the graphics but I'm not +certain yet. If you have changes you'd like to propose the best +current path to follow would be to: + +(1) modify the .pamphlet files with changes to the code and some +paragraphs explaining what you changed and why. + +(2) surround any changes you make in C code with some flag like +-DCYGWIN or -DBXP (Bill X Page). Note that I used -DTPD to mark +some of my changes so I could revisit them later. Add the new +-DBXP flag on the gcc lines of the stanzas that compile the +changed files. Make a note of it in the Makefile.pamphlet file. + +(3) create a patch file that can be applied to the original +.pamphlet file and send me the patches. try to make sure that +a patch implements only one "conceptual" change at a time. +That is, it might affect several files but only changes one +function, like rpc functionality. I've been making changes also +so I'm going to have to carefully merge your patches with my +changed files. + +In general, focus on getting the image built and runnable. +We'll do detailed debugging as we have time. + +I'm using redhat 7.2 (gcc 2.95), 7.2 (gcc 2.96) and 8.0 (gcc 3.1) +Send me a patch for the compile flags change you'd like. + +I should have the bootsys layer ready to upload shortly. +Once we get out of the C code and into a running lisp life +should be much easier. + +\start +Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 21:51:50 -0500 +From: root +To: bill.page@sympatico.ca +CC: daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Subject: [Axiom-developer] document command + +How are you at writing bash shell scripts? + +The document command currently takes one argument +which is the name of a pamphlet file. If the name +ends in .pamphlet it clips it off. + +In the Makefiles I call the document command if +there are changes. The document command calls latex +which generates a tremendous amount of output most +of which I ignore. In order to reduce the noise I +code lines like: + document Makefile >${TMP}/trace + +This has a problem. If the .pamphlet file has a +syntax error then latex will put up a read and hang. +Since the output is being sent to a file nothing +will appear on the console and the whole make +process appears to hang. + +A slightly better solution would be to implement an +option on document to specify the output file like: + document -o ${TMP}/trace Makefile +Then we can make a global variable called NOISE. +By default we set + NOISE=-o ${TMP}/trace +and write + document ${NOISE} Makefile + +Then if there is a hung make a developer can write + make NOISE= +and the lines change into + document Makefile +which will output all of the latex. + +I'm not much of a bash programmer. +If you know bash could you take a stab at +rewriting document to take a "-o file" option? +If not, I'll look at it. + +\start +Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 12:36:39 -0500 +From: root +To: bill.page1@sympatico.ca +CC: daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Subject: [Axiom-developer] bash script + +re: bash script. + +Nevermind. I finally beat it into submission. Apparently you can't +nest if statements and you can't have a space in the assignment +command surrounding the '=' sign. + +I'm surprised that comments don't need a character in column 6. +Cretinous language. +The designers should be shot. + +Anyway, it works and it will fix the "hung console" problem +(not really as it will still hang but the real fix will require +more work as i have to figure out how to convince latex not to +read from the console and also return a failing return code so +i can react to it better. sigh) + +\start +Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 18:00:55 -0500 +From: "Bill Page" +To: +Cc: +Subject: [Axiom-developer] RE: making ccl on cygwin + +Tim, + +I've succeded in building CCL and am now working +on GCL. GCL should be easier, I hope. + +On Friday, November 15, 2002 8:51 PM you wrote: +> +> Two possible directions: +> +> First, I'm told that Cygwin has been replaced with +> native code that runs directly in Windows which, of +> course, would require that you redo your whole +> environment and seems a bit extreme. + +Although I am willing to work towards a direct Windows +implementation of Axiom, I think the "half-way" point +represented by Cygwin is a better target at this +point - not too far away from Linux but far enough +to represent some (but hopefully not too many) +challenges. + +> +> Second, I believe that rpc is used for the graphics +> but I'm not certain yet. If you have changes you'd +> like to propose the best current path to follow would +> be to: +> +> (1) modify the .pamphlet files with changes to the +> code and some paragraphs explaining what you changed +> and why. +> +> (2) surround any changes you make in C code with some +> flag like -DCYGWIN or -DBXP (Bill X Page). Note that +> I used -DTPD to mark some of my changes so I could +> revisit them later. Add the new -DBXP flag on the gcc +> lines of the stanzas that compile the changed files. +> Make a note of it in the Makefile.pamphlet file. +> + +I have been able to retain rpc and will mark the few +changes that I needed to make to get it to compile as +you suggest above. + +> (3) create a patch file that can be applied to the +> original .pamphlet file and send me the patches. +> Try to make sure that a patch implements only one +> "conceptual" change at a time. That is, it might +> affect several files but only changes one function, +> like rpc functionality. I've been making changes +> also so I'm going to have to carefully merge your +> patches with my changed files. + +Ok. By "patch file" do you mean the output of diff? + +In the future do you intend to make use of the +"concurrent" functionality of cvs to keep track +of these sort of "parallel" changes? + +> +> In general, focus on getting the image built and +> runnable. We'll do detailed debugging as we have +> time. + +Understood. + +> +> I'm using redhat 7.2 (gcc 2.95), 7.2 (gcc 2.96) +> and 8.0 (gcc 3.1) Send me a patch for the compile +> flags change you'd like. + +Do you feel like upgrading to the current release +of gcc 3.2? + + http://gcc.gnu.org/gcc-3.2/ + +It isn't necessary of course but 3.2 is supposed to +be more "standard" than previous versions. + + http://gcc.gnu.org/gcc-3.2/c++-abi.html + + +> +> I should have the bootsys layer ready to upload +> shortly. Once we get out of the C code and into a +> running lisp life should be much easier. +> + +I am looking forward to that! + +\start +Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 18:04:18 -0500 +From: root +To: bill.page1@sympatico.ca +CC: daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: making ccl on cygwin + +I'm uploading and cleaning the cvs at the moment. +I'll answer shortly. + +\start +Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 19:42:38 -0500 +From: root +To: bill.page1@sympatico.ca +CC: daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: making ccl on cygwin + +I've uploaded the machinery to build bootsys. + +In theory you should just need to type make and it +will eventually build obj/linux/bin/bootsys. +You should be able to run this image thus: + cd obj/linux/bin + ./bootsys + +re: Cygwin. That's fine. I wasn't objecting to using +Cygwin but just passing along information. + +re: diff and patch. yes. you should be able to + diff -Naur oldfile newfile +do man patch for details + +re: using CVS. yes, we'll be using CVS to make these +changes shortly. At the moment I'm doing "forward" work +on CVS, that is, I'm uploading new code as I build it +and clean it up. I'm trying to get a clean version of +CVS and my working directories have acres of cruft that +should never get uploaded (e.g. the partial "original" +directories"). Once I get a grip on CVS we'll work +exclusively thru CVS. For now, however, please bear +with me and use patch files. + +Especially problematic about using CVS for the initial +port to Cygwin is that, to do it correctly, you need to +modify the top level Makefile with new stanzas. You should +be building on obj/cygwin, not obj/linux. I know how to +make that magic happen but I haven't sufficiently explained +it in the Makefile. I'm going to use your example (given +that you get to be the pioneer) to force me to explain +how and why to make changes while porting. + +You may notice three other things in the top level Makefile. +First, you made the contributors list. Second, there is a +FAQ section with your build questions. If you think of more +we should add them. Third, the author line is now Nicolas +Bourbaki. He apparently was a French general that screwed +up badly. In the 30s a group of French mathematicians started +using that pseudonym to publish their results. Given that +there are many tens of contributors to Axiom it seemed +unreasonable to attribute particular pieces to anyone and +unreasonable to attribute the pamphlet files to me. So, +Bourbaki seems like a reasonable alternative. + +I've upgraded my redhat 8 box to 3.2. I can't upgrade +the other boxes as I have to use them for other code. +Yes, 3.2 is correct but only if you use the latest +"standard" as the definition of correctness. Most of +the C and C++ code I have is badly broken by the +language definition changes. I have a lot of things +that need fixing and I need the old compiler to keep +runnable versions of my code. + +The latest version, just to add to your confusion, +is running on GCL, not CCL. I've discovered a problem +with CCL and sent a note to Arthur. CCL isn't really +a common lisp and never pretended to be. However, it +has an obscure model of "compile-file" and I have to +ponder how to build upon it. Just to continue development +I switched to GCL for the moment. If I've done my job +right you shouldn't notice. + +You'll notice that the CVS directory is much lighter to +download. I've gone thru several download/upload iterations +so I can be sure you get a clean copy. The "original" directory +is still built but is empty. It was partially uploaded by +mistake anyway. The annoying new/new still exists and I'll +fix that soon. The zips directory is lighter as cmucl is gone. +I'll add back an abbreviated version when I get the build to +succeed. It is a matter of some annoyance that CVS will not +delete directories. + +\start +Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 09:36:10 +0000 +From: Mike Dewar +To: Bill Page +Cc: daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] making ccl on cygwin + +Hi Bill, + +The versions of Axiom up to 2.2 for Windows were built with Watcom C +because it was the fastest C compiler around at the time. We moved to +Visual C++ (version 6 I think) for Axiom 2.3 since Watcom C was no +longer supported. We never built a cygwin version. The version of CCL +you have is a merge of our latest version with Arthur Norman's, and I +haven't tried building it under Windows. + +The license manager certainly needed RPC, as did our link to the NAG +Library (on Unix only). I'm not sure whether any of the graphics or +sman code used it - I don't think so but I could be wrong. + +The code I sent to Tim was tested on Redhat Linux (nominally 6.2 but it +gets patched and upgraded constantly) with gcc 2.91.66. + +Good luck! + +Mike. + +On Fri, Nov 15, 2002 at 08:32:11PM -0500, Bill Page wrote: +> Tim, +> +> I have been trying hard to get CCL to compile +> and link under Cygwin. I have resolved most +> problems but I've run into a problem with the +> "rusty" coding in CCL relating to remote procedure +> calls (rpc). There are several variants of the +> rpc api, the one being used by CCL is originally +> from SUN. Cygwin does not normally include this +> so the #include "rpc/rpc.h" is not defined +> instead there is a "win32/rpc.h" which has a +> somewhat different set of interface routines +> and parameters. I was able to locate a version +> of the SUN rpc which had been adapted for Cygwin +> but it is not being directly maintained by the +> Cygwin people. Anyway, after installing it +> successfully, I got further with the CCL compile +> but then ran into some C code that does not +> conform to the standards expected by gcc version +> 3.2 (at least not with the options that the +> Makefile contains). +> +> What version of C compiler are you using? Is +> it gcc 3.2 on Red Hat 8.0 linux or some other? +> +> Anyway, I was wondering what you might think +> about a some surgery to get rid of what appears +> to be some "code rot" in this part of CCL? Is +> rpc really needed for Axiom? I can imagine that +> it might be relevant to someone interested in +> parallel processing versions etc. but I expect +> that anyone serious about doing this sort of +> development would prefer a more modern inter- +> process communication protocol than rpc? No? +> +> What do you think? + +\start +Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 08:55:43 -0500 +From: root +To: Norman Ramsey +Cc: daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Subject: [Axiom-developer] [axiom] Undefined Chunks behavior + +Norman, + +Some of the code I'm processing includes files that define +the language used and contains code like: + <<' Name '>> +which is, of course, view as a chunk. The default behavior of +an undefined chunk elides the << >> pair. It would be more +useful to me if the default behavior was to output the chunk +exactly as found. Another example is C code that does: + x << 3 && y >> 2 +where again it would be useful to have the default behavior +to be an unchanged output. + +Is there a way to do this currently? If not, can you recommend +a place where I could look to apply this change? + +\start +Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 10:36:01 -0500 +From: root +To: nr@eecs.harvard.edu +CC: daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: [axiom] Undefined Chunks behavior + +Thanks. I'll look at the filter technique. Sort of a "do no harm" default. + +I'm familiar with the @<< escape but it will mean that I have to change +the original documents whereas defaulting to an unchanged document means +that I don't introduce semantic errors (like lost shifts in C) if I +miss an undefined chunk message. + +\start +Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 10:25:47 -0500 +From: Norman Ramsey +To: daly@idsi.net +Subject: Re: [axiom] Undefined Chunks behavior + +You could write a noweb filter to do this easily enough, +but the `correct', sanctioned way to solve this problem is to +escape the source code by writing, e.g., + + @<<' Name '@>> + +N + +\start +Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 20:35:36 -0500 +From: root +To: nr@eecs.harvard.edu +CC: daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Re: [axiom] Undefined Chunks behavior + +Actually, it appears that the correct fix is to modify modules.c +(line 201 in modules.nw, line 117 in modules.c) to create a new, +dummy Module that expands into <> if foo is not found and +then calls expand on that. + +I don't see how to do this with filters. Perhaps I'm missing something. + +\start +Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 22:54:08 -0500 +From: root +To: nr@eecs.harvard.edu +CC: daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Subject: [Axiom-developer] [axiom] Undefined Chunks behavior + +Norman, + +I have included two patch files you can apply to change the +behavior for undefined chunks. Previously undefined chunks +generated an error and were elided from the output. Now they are +complained about but included in the output surrounded by +the << and >> symbols which should recreate the original input. + +This seems to do the "least harm" to the file as it reproduces +what it doesn't understand. + +The change is explained in the nw file. + +To fix these you only need to cd to the noweb/src/c directory +and type: + patch >= + newmod = lookup(p->contents); + if (newmod==NULL) { +- errormsg (Error, "undefined chunk name: @<<%s@>>", p->contents); ++ errormsg (Error, "ignoring undefined chunk name: @<<%s@>>", p->contents); + error=Error; ++ printf("@<<%s@>>",p->contents); + } else { + int retcode; + if (*locformat == 0 && partial_distance == 0) { + + +======================== modules.c.patch ============================== +--- modules.c Wed Mar 28 13:49:22 2001 ++++ modules.c.tpd Mon Nov 18 22:26:35 2002 +@@ -1,4 +1,3 @@ +-#line 50 "modules.nw" + static char rcsid[] = "$Id: modules.nw,v 2.16 2001/03/28 18:44:46 nr Exp nr $"; + static char rcsname[] = "$Name: v2_10a $"; + #include +@@ -11,18 +10,14 @@ + #include "columns.h" + #include "strsave.h" + +-#line 110 "modules.nw" + static struct modpart * + newmodpart(int type, char *s, Location *loc); /* create a new module part */ + + static + void append(Module mp, struct modpart *p); +-#line 227 "modules.nw" + static int seekcycle(Module mp, Parent parent); +-#line 132 "modules.nw" + static char *lastfilename = 0; + static int lastlineno = -1; +-#line 41 "modules.nw" + Module newmodule (char *modname) { + Module p = (Module) malloc (sizeof (struct module)); + checkptr(p); +@@ -31,12 +26,10 @@ + p->head = p->tail = NULL; + return p; + } +-#line 74 "modules.nw" + void add_part (Module mp, char *s, Parttype type, Location *loc) { + struct modpart *p = newmodpart(type,s,loc); + append (mp,p); + } +-#line 79 "modules.nw" + static struct modpart * + newmodpart(int type, char *s, Location *loc) { + struct modpart *p = (struct modpart *) malloc (sizeof (struct modpart)); +@@ -44,19 +37,15 @@ + p->ptype = type; + if (s) { + p->contents = strsave(s); +- +-#line 104 "modules.nw" +-{ int k = strlen(p->contents)-1; +- if (p->contents[k] == '\n') p->contents[k] = '\0'; +- else impossible("input line doesn't end with newline"); +-} +-#line 87 "modules.nw" ++ { int k = strlen(p->contents)-1; ++ if (p->contents[k] == '\n') p->contents[k] = '\0'; ++ else impossible("input line doesn't end with newline"); ++ } + } + if (loc) p->loc = *loc; + p->next = NULL; + return p; + } +-#line 93 "modules.nw" + static + void append(Module mp, struct modpart *p) { + /* append p to mp's list of modparts */ +@@ -67,12 +56,10 @@ + mp->tail = p; + } + } +-#line 137 "modules.nw" + void resetloc(void) { + lastfilename = 0; + lastlineno = -1; + } +-#line 145 "modules.nw" + int expand (Module mp, int indent, int partial_distance, Parent parent, + char *locformat, FILE *out) { + struct modpart *p; +@@ -80,69 +67,51 @@ + int error=Normal; + struct parent thismodule; /* the value only matters when we're expanding a module */ + +- +-#line 219 "modules.nw" +-thismodule.this = mp; +-thismodule.parent = parent; +-#line 153 "modules.nw" +- +-#line 222 "modules.nw" +-if (seekcycle(mp, parent)) { +- errormsg(Error, "<<%s>>", mp->name); +- return Error; +-} ++ thismodule.this = mp; ++ thismodule.parent = parent; ++ if (seekcycle(mp, parent)) { ++ errormsg(Error, "<<%s>>", mp->name); ++ return Error; ++ } + +-#line 155 "modules.nw" + for (p=mp->head; p!=NULL; p=p->next) { + switch (p->ptype) { +- case STRING: +-#line 176 "modules.nw" +-if (*(p->contents) != '\0') { +- if (*locformat) { +- if (printloc(out,locformat,p->loc,partial_distance) && (p != mp->head)) +- indent_for(partial_distance, out); +- } else if (partial_distance == 0) { +- indent_for(indent, out); +- partial_distance = indent; +- } +- fprintf(out,"%s",p->contents); +- partial_distance = limitcolumn(p->contents, partial_distance); +-} +-#line 157 "modules.nw" +- ; break; +- case MODULE: +-#line 201 "modules.nw" +-newmod = lookup(p->contents); +-if (newmod==NULL) { +- errormsg (Error, "undefined chunk name: <<%s>>", p->contents); +- error=Error; +-} else { +- int retcode; +- if (*locformat == 0 && partial_distance == 0) { +- indent_for(indent, out); +- partial_distance = indent; +- } +- retcode = expand (newmod, partial_distance, partial_distance, +- &thismodule, locformat, out); +- if (retcode > error) error = retcode; +-} +-partial_distance = limitcolumn(p->contents, partial_distance + 2) + 2; +- /* account for surrounding brackets */ +-#line 158 "modules.nw" +- ; break; +- case NEWLINE: +-#line 188 "modules.nw" +-partial_distance = 0; +-putc('\n', out); +-lastlineno++; +-#line 159 "modules.nw" +- ; break; ++ case STRING: if (*(p->contents) != '\0') { ++ if (*locformat) { ++ if (printloc(out,locformat,p->loc,partial_distance) && (p != mp->head)) ++ indent_for(partial_distance, out); ++ } else if (partial_distance == 0) { ++ indent_for(indent, out); ++ partial_distance = indent; ++ } ++ fprintf(out,"%s",p->contents); ++ partial_distance = limitcolumn(p->contents, partial_distance); ++ }; break; ++ case MODULE: newmod = lookup(p->contents); ++ if (newmod==NULL) { ++ errormsg (Error, "ignoring undefined chunk name: <<%s>>", p->contents); ++ error=Error; ++ printf("<<%s>>",p->contents); ++ } else { ++ int retcode; ++ if (*locformat == 0 && partial_distance == 0) { ++ indent_for(indent, out); ++ partial_distance = indent; ++ } ++ retcode = expand (newmod, partial_distance, partial_distance, ++ &thismodule, locformat, out); ++ if (retcode > error) error = retcode; ++ } ++ partial_distance = limitcolumn(p->contents, partial_distance + 2) + 2; ++ /* account for surrounding brackets */; break; ++ case NEWLINE: partial_distance = 0; ++ putc('\n', out); ++ lastlineno++;; break; + default: impossible("bad part type"); + } + } + return error; + } +-#line 229 "modules.nw" + static int seekcycle(Module mp, Parent parent) { + if (parent == NULL) { + return 0; +@@ -155,57 +124,45 @@ + return 0; + } + } +-#line 251 "modules.nw" + int printloc(FILE *fp, char *fmt, Location loc, int partial) { + char *p; + if (*fmt + && (loc.filename!=lastfilename || lastlineno != loc.lineno)) { + if (partial) putc('\n',fp); +- +-#line 263 "modules.nw" +-for (p = fmt; *p; p++) { +- if (*p == '%') { +- switch (*++p) { +- case '%': putc('%', fp); break; +- case 'N': putc('\n', fp); break; +- case 'F': fprintf(fp, "%s", loc.filename); break; +- case 'L': fprintf(fp, "%d", loc.lineno); break; +- case '-': case '+': +- if (isdigit(p[1]) && p[2] == 'L') { +- fprintf(fp, "%d", *p == '+' ? loc.lineno + (p[1] - '0') +- : loc.lineno - (p[1] - '0')); +- p += 2; +- } else +- +-#line 283 "modules.nw" +-{ static int complained = 0; +- if (!complained) { +- errormsg(Error,"Bad format sequence ``%%%c'' in -L%s",*p,fmt); +- complained = 1; +- } +-} +-#line 277 "modules.nw" +- break; +- default: +-#line 283 "modules.nw" +-{ static int complained = 0; +- if (!complained) { +- errormsg(Error,"Bad format sequence ``%%%c'' in -L%s",*p,fmt); +- complained = 1; +- } +-} +-#line 278 "modules.nw" +- break; ++ for (p = fmt; *p; p++) { ++ if (*p == '%') { ++ switch (*++p) { ++ case '%': putc('%', fp); break; ++ case 'N': putc('\n', fp); break; ++ case 'F': fprintf(fp, "%s", loc.filename); break; ++ case 'L': fprintf(fp, "%d", loc.lineno); break; ++ case '-': case '+': ++ if (isdigit(p[1]) && p[2] == 'L') { ++ fprintf(fp, "%d", *p == '+' ? loc.lineno + (p[1] - '0') ++ : loc.lineno - (p[1] - '0')); ++ p += 2; ++ } else ++ { static int complained = 0; ++ if (!complained) { ++ errormsg(Error,"Bad format sequence ``%%%c'' in -L%s",*p,fmt); ++ complained = 1; ++ } ++ } ++ break; ++ default: { static int complained = 0; ++ if (!complained) { ++ errormsg(Error,"Bad format sequence ``%%%c'' in -L%s",*p,fmt); ++ complained = 1; ++ } ++ } break; ++ } ++ } else putc(*p, fp); + } +- } else putc(*p, fp); +-} +-#line 257 "modules.nw" + lastfilename = loc.filename; + lastlineno = loc.lineno; + return 1; + } else return 0; + } +-#line 309 "modules.nw" + void remove_final_newline (Module mp) { + /* remove trailing newline that must be in module */ + if (mp->tail==NULL) /* module has no text */ + + +\start +Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 2:32:19 -0500 +From: Bill Page +To: , +CC: , +Subject: [Axiom-developer] visual literate programming + +Tim and Joris, + +I have now started to become quite familiar with TeXmacs +and am rather pleased with it's capabilities. I think it +is a good choice for a new graphical front-end for axiom. + +By now you (Tim) have authored a number of significant +noweb "pamphlet" files for the new open source version +of axiom and have even made some simple changes to noweb +to accommodate the axiom build process. + +It has always seemed quite clear to me that the overall +appearance of a complex system (such as axiom) is strongly +influenced by the environment in which it is developed. +Thus systems developed in a "command line" oriented +environment (the classical Unix environment) tend to be +command line oriented etc. So therefore I am quite +interested in finding ways to continue the development of +axiom from with in the environment in which it will +eventually run. To that end, let me recall your exchange +with Jorix van der Hoeven of last June. + +--------- + +\start +Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 11:51:06 +0200 (MET DST) +From: Joris van der Hoeven +To: root +Cc: texmacs-dev@gnu.org, + "Nicolas M. Thiery" , + Dylan Thurston , + Philippe Toffin , + Barry Trager , + Carlo Traverso , + Theodore Thomas Tsikas , + "Gioia M. Vago" , + Joris van der Hoeven , + Leonid Vaserstein , + Nikolay Vassiliev +Subject: Re: [axiom] Axiom website updated + + +On Fri, 31 May 2002, root wrote: + +> Axiom's website has been updated +> http://home.earthlink.net/~jgg964/axiom.html +> +> * Discussion of the Literate Programming + +I would just like to remind you that we want to make TeXmacs +an editor for literate programming in the mid-range future. +At the moment David Allouche is working on a very general +dynamic rewriting scheme, which will englobe TMSL (TeXmacs +style language), XSL and literate programming rewriters. +I expect this work to be finished in six months from now. +Among the TeXmacs developers, at least three persons are +very interested in literate programming. At the moment +these three persons are volunteers, but if someone has +some money available, then I think that their projects +could be boosted in a serious way. + +Joris van der Hoeven +http://www.texmacs.org: GNU TeXmacs scientific text editor +http://www.math.u-psud.fr/~vdhoeven: personal homepage + +--------- + +I would like to find out what is the current status of the +application of TeXmacs to literate programming and what are +your current thoughts about this subject with respect to +the axiom project. + +If it hasn't been done already, I would be quite interested +in attempting to develop an appropriate filter for TeXmacs +which would be able to import a noweb pamphlet file (of the +kind that you are now writing) into a form that could be +directly edited and printed in "noweave/latex" format. +Then one would also want to be able to export both to the +original noweb pamphlet format and also to "notangle" code. + +Has there been any new developments in this area? Are there +any other places on the web to look for this kind of work? + +\start +Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 6:20:19 -0500 +From: Bill Page +To: +CC: +Subject: [Axiom-developer] new Makefile.pamphlet problems + +Tim, + +I downloaded a new version of the source yesterday. I have +noticed that with the new organization of the makefile +with the platform specific files, the old methode of +restarting the make with + + make clean + +no longer works the way it did. I did not see this +documented in the noweave output. + +I am planning to create a platform specific makefile for +cygwin following the example in your makefile.pamphlet but +I find the documentation still a little thin about how this +is supposed to work. + +Here are a few more quick notes; + +1) The use of the 'strip' command causes trouble in the +make for noweb. There is a note to the effect that it is +necessary to comment out this line of the makefile in the +case of HPUX. It seems to apply to cygwin as well. The +problem is that cygwin executable files end with the +extension .exe but strip just takes the name given to it +and in true unix style this has no extension. + +2) cygwin cannot handle a copy to /dev/null. It complains +that it cannot create this file. This causes another +problem during the make of noweb. See the ELISP variable +in the makefile. But a cat > /dev/null does seem to work +as expected. + +\start +Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 06:33:24 -0500 +From: root +To: bill.page1@sympatico.ca +CC: daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: new Makefile.pamphlet problems + +Bill, + +Wow, creating a platform file. That's ambitious but I'm happy +to see you do it. Lets see if I can give you a few quick pointers: + +1) The top level Makefile now selects the platform based on the +SYS= variable. Thus you need to set a SYS=cygwin in the top level +default. This used to be parsed out of the SPAD variable (taking +the basename of the SPAD variable) but I've forgotten the magic +I used to make basename expand in the Makefile. Thus just setting +SPAD=......./cygwin used to be enough. I'll fix that eventually. + +2) the all: stanza (approx line 500 in Makefile.pamphlet) will +notangle out the appropriate platform-specific Makefile. For example, +if SYS=cygwin it will look for a chunk called <> +and extract it. Then it will invoke Make on the newly extracted +Makefile.cygwin. + +3) <> is responsible for setting the top-level +Makefile variables, setting up appropriate directories, setting +proper command defaults (e.g. strip -> echo) etc. + + +More later. I've got to go to work. +Keep up the good work. + +\start +Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 07:03:02 -0500 +From: root +To: bill.page1@sympatico.ca +CC: daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Makefile.pamphlet + +Bill, + +I still have a couple minutes before I leave for work.... + +To handle the strip problem properly you have to think globally. + +1) Find all instances of strip and replace them with ${STRIP} +2) Add STRIP=strip to ALL the platform-specific Makefiles. +3) Add STRIP=${STRIP} to the end of the ENV= line in each + platform specific Makefile + (this step is what propagates the variables to all of the + children. It creates an environment list for the child because + the shell allows the syntax + FOO=bar Baz + to define FOO in the environment for Baz. We use this fact) +4) Clone one of the platform specific Makefiles which seems + close to your platform. +5) Set all of the FOO= variable appropriately in your + platform specific Makefile +6) Set the STRIP= variable in your platform specific Makefile + to be STRIP=echo or some other null function. +7) Document everything you do in the pamphlet files + +Gotta go... + +\start +Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 07:18:04 -0500 +From: root +To: bill.page1@sympatico.ca +CC: daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Makefile.pamphlet + +Bill, + +(one foot out the door....) + +Oh, yeah. You should be aware that things will start showing +up in the cygwin directory (e.g. obj/cygwin/... and mnt/cygwin/...) +as a side-effect of changing SYS= + +This is the intended effect. It has two implications. First, +we can build multiple platforms from the same files and second, +they can be kept in the same filesystems for distribution. + +Also, handle /dev/null just like strip. Make DEVNULL=/dev/null +and spread it around everywhere. Better yet, use DEVNULL=${TMP}/null +as ${TMP} is our guaranteed writable filesystem. + +Be very careful (i.e. anal) about where you put stuff. Read the +top level description of the directory structure and +understand the meaning of the 4 directories (src, int, obj and +mnt). The long term goal will be to ship a CD with src and int +already expanded and people will be able to create an obj and +mnt on their system and do a complete build. Thus, AFTER THE +FIRST BUILD, src and int are assumed read-only. + +(really gotta go) + +\start +Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 20:13:32 -0500 +From: root +To: bill.page1@sympatico.ca +CC: daly@idsi.net, Joris.VanDerHoeven@math.u-psud.fr, + axiom-developer@nongnu.org, texmacs-dev@gnu.org +Subject: [Axiom-developer] visual literate programming + +Bill and Joris, + +I've signed up on the mailing list for TeXmacs and I downloaded +the latest version to try it on the pamphlet files. I tried it +against the examples +http://home.earthlink.net/~jgg964/dhmatrix.pamphlet +http://home.earthlink.net/~jgg964/Makefile.pamphlet +http://home.earthlink.net/~jgg964/Magman.pamphlet + +There are several things failing. \subsubsection is wrong. +\cite is wrong and the whole biblio section is broken. +Worst of all is that the <> chunks of code are +mangled. I also tried it against the dhmatrix.tex, etc +files and it still comes out bent. However, the math +comes out beatifully. It does know quite a few of the +tex directives. It ran Axiom fine from within the buffer. + +This isn't a criticism of TeXmacs. It just means we need to +work together to improve the tool and make pamphlet files +into a "standard" for TeXmacs. There are a lot of possible +directions including things like adding an automatic call +to notangle, nountangle so code can be maintained directly +from the pamphlet, including invoking the compiler on the +untangled code. It would be nice to be able to follow +\cite references to other pamphlets. TeXmacs needs to +really understand the noweb chunks. + +I really would like to make literate programs be the only +"source" files and have the rest happen by magic. + +\start +Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 20:26:39 -0500 +From: root +To: nr@eecs.harvard.edu +CC: daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Subject: [Axiom-developer] [axiom] Undefined Chunks behavior + +re: awk filter. + +Thanks. I've avoided shell programming for all these years and +virtually never use awk. Changing the C code was my only viable option. +I'd already modified the C code by the time your first reply arrived. +Your solution is clearly better. + +Tim + + +=================================================================== + + > Actually, it appears that the correct fix is to modify modules.c + > (line 201 in modules.nw, line 117 in modules.c) to create a new, + > dummy Module that expands into <> if foo is not found and + > then calls expand on that. + +Absolutely *don't* do this. It is not necessary. + + > I don't see how to do this with filters. Perhaps I'm missing something. + +Write an awk script that copies all lines to stdout, and in the +process, identifies each @use that has no corresponding @defn. +For each such @use emit this code chunk: + +@begin code +@defn this is my text +@text <> +@end code + + + +Norman + +=================================================================== + + > Norman, + > + > I have included two patch files you can apply to change the + > behavior for undefined chunks. + +What this problem needs is ten lines of awk. Here's your noweb filter: + + #!/bin/sh + + awk ' + /^@use / { uses [substr($0, 6)] = 1 } + /^@defn / { defns[substr($0, 7)] = 1 } + { print } + END { + for (i in uses) + if (!defns[i]) + printf "@begin code\n@defn %s\n@nl\n@text <<%s>>\n@end code\n", i, i + }' + + exit 0 + + # test with + + sed '1,/test with/d' $0 | notangle -filter $0 + + <<*>>= + return x << 2 >> 2; + @ + + +\start +Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 12:31:07 +0100 (MET) +From: Joris van der Hoeven +To: texmacs-dev@gnu.org +Cc: bill.page1@sympatico.ca, daly@idsi.net, Joris.VanDerHoeven@math.u-psud.fr, + axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Subject: Re: [Texmacs-dev] [Axiom-developer] visual literate programming + +Hi Tim, + +> I've signed up on the mailing list for TeXmacs and I downloaded +> the latest version to try it on the pamphlet files. I tried it +> against the examples +> http://home.earthlink.net/~jgg964/dhmatrix.pamphlet +> http://home.earthlink.net/~jgg964/Makefile.pamphlet +> http://home.earthlink.net/~jgg964/Magman.pamphlet + +Is the pamphlet format described somewhere? +It probably just uses a particular style file. + +> There are several things failing. \subsubsection is wrong. +> \cite is wrong and the whole biblio section is broken. +> Worst of all is that the <> chunks of code are +> mangled. I also tried it against the dhmatrix.tex, etc +> files and it still comes out bent. However, the math +> comes out beatifully. It does know quite a few of the +> tex directives. It ran Axiom fine from within the buffer. + +I mainly had problems with Makefile.pamphlet. +Importing verbatim text is dangerous with TeXmacs, +if you created a new environment for this: +as soon as you hit a $, TeXmacs can get confused. + +I did not see any problems with \subsubsection and \cite. +It should not be too hard to fix the other problems. + +> This isn't a criticism of TeXmacs. It just means we need to +> work together to improve the tool and make pamphlet files +> into a "standard" for TeXmacs. There are a lot of possible +> directions including things like adding an automatic call +> to notangle, nountangle so code can be maintained directly +> from the pamphlet, including invoking the compiler on the +> untangled code. It would be nice to be able to follow +> \cite references to other pamphlets. TeXmacs needs to +> really understand the noweb chunks. + +Yes, we can take a look at this. + +> I really would like to make literate programs be the only +> "source" files and have the rest happen by magic. + +Indeed. + + +\start +Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 07:36:39 -0500 +From: root +To: TeXmacs@math.u-psud.fr +CC: texmacs-dev@gnu.org, bill.page1@sympatico.ca, daly@idsi.net, + Joris.VanDerHoeven@math.u-psud.fr, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Subject: [Axiom-developer] (no subject) + +In-reply-to: (message from + Joris van der Hoeven on Wed, 20 Nov 2002 12:31:07 +0100 (MET)) +Subject: Re: [Texmacs-dev] [Axiom-developer] visual literate programming +Reply-to: daly@idsi.net +References: +--text follows this line-- +Joris, + +At the moment there are no formal requirements for a pamphlet file. +I hope to develop them in the future. In particular the plans call +for required sections on test cases, user help, examples, etc. which +will be "exploded" to various parts of the filesystem. The only case +used at the moment is in .c.pamphlet files which contain both the +.c and the .h code, both of which are broken out at compile time. +Also the cross-reference section will be used to automatically +load required pamphlets. + +I'll retry the \subsubsection and \cite cases. I could easily have +screwed something up. I think that we can recognize the code +chunking mechanism in noweave's output and have TeXmacs handle it +properly. I'm not sure of all of the details of TexMacs or noweb +but we'll figure it out. + +Norman's noweb wraps code in the sequence, causing a "definition" +<>= +code +... +code +@ +where everything outside the <<>>= ... @ is considered text. +Code between the boundaries is basically a verbatim environment. + +Code definitions are "used" by specifying: +<> +Notice the lack of trailing equal sign. + +Joris, can you point me at some specific part of the TeXmacs docs +that will help us develop a pamphlet "style" file. A style file +that properly handle noweb vanilla output would be quite useful. + +\start +Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 11:40:05 -0500 +From: Bill Page +To: +CC: , +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: GCL on Cygwin for Axiom + + +Tim, + +Damn. I am sorry to hear that Schelter is not still +available. I guess the Internet hasn't quite progressed to +that stage yet... And it's a reminder to me that there is +some urgency in this project to document Axiom and make it +available. + +What I meant to write was GCL (Schelter's lisp), not GCC - +It was late and I was frustrated. I am more awake not. + +Yes, GCC runs just fine on Cygwin for me but I do not have +a running version of GCL. In comparison to CCL, GCL is a +monster! Nearly everything I have tried to do in order to +make a running version of GCL under cygwin has failed with +obviously incorrect and untested code C coding. Getting CCL +to run was a piece of cake compared to this! + +Does your offer to help extend to GCL? I have so many +problems and have tried so many things that it is a bit +hard to know where to start asking questions. But ... + +1) First things: The version 2.4.1 of GCL that is in your +CVS is a bit out of date. The current version is 2.4.3. +And even the version of GMP (GNU math package) that is +in 2.4.3 is quite out of date. The most recent version +of GMP is 4.1 + +2) Via the web, I found that it is known that version 2.4.1 +of GCL is missing some critical files for the Cywin build, +specifically 'unexnt.c'. So after several more failed +attempts witn 2.4.1, I download 2.4.3 and tried to compile +it. unexnt.c is there, but there are a whole host of other +problems, many of which seem to relate to GMP. So I +downloaded 4.1 of GMP. That built just fine on it's own +and after some fiddling I finally got GCL to link with it. +After alot of fixing other small things, I finally got to +the final load step for GCL only to have the the loader +blow up with a segment fault and stack dump ... jeez. + +3) There is a "pre-release" version of GCL posted at the +Savannah site which is supposed into compile into native +Window's application with the mingw32 version of GCC. +Perhaps that is where I will try to go next. + +4) But first a few more attempts. I am in the middle of +getting the missing unexnt.c file from the newest version +of GCL and using it with the older version. I will let you +know how far this one goes. + +> From: root +> Date: 2002/11/20 Wed AM 07:15:24 EST +> To: bill.page1@sympatico.ca +> CC: schelter@mail.ma.utexas.edu, daly@idsi.net +> Subject: Re: GCL on Cygwin for Axiom +> +> Bill, +> +> Schelter's dead. But if you do get an answer let me know :-) +> Did you want help with GCC (Gnu Compiler Collection) or +> GCL (Gnu Common Lisp)? +> +> I thought you had GCC running. How can I help? + +\start +Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 17:54:05 +0100 (CET) +From: Martin RUBEY +To: Bill Page +Cc: daly@idsi.net, +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Re: GCL on Cygwin for Axiom + + +> 3) There is a "pre-release" version of GCL posted at the +> Savannah site which is supposed into compile into native +> Window's application with the mingw32 version of GCC. +> Perhaps that is where I will try to go next. + +I think this is the way to go. And I think that Mike Thomas + is the one to ask, if there are Windows +Problems. There is a Mingw binary availaible on +ftp://ftp.gnu.org/pub/gnu/gcl/cvs/ + +(but I do not have windows) + +Camm Maguire will also be glad to help, I think + +wou might want to look at + +http://mail.gnu.org/pipermail/gcl-devel/2002-September/001084.html + +\start +Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 12:13:19 -0500 +From: Bill Page +To: Martin RUBEY +CC: ,, +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: GCL on Cygwin for Axiom + +On 2002/11/20 Wed AM 11:54:05 EST Martin RUBEY + wrote: + +> .. +> > 3) There is a "pre-release" version of GCL posted at the +> > Savannah site which is supposed into compile into native +> > Window's application with the mingw32 version of GCC. +> > Perhaps that is where I will try to go next. +> +> I think this is the way to go. And I think that Mike +> Thomas is the one to +> ask, if there are Windows Problems. There is a Mingw +> binary availaible on +> ftp://ftp.gnu.org/pub/gnu/gcl/cvs/ +> +> (but I do not have windows) +> +> Camm Maguire will also be glad to help, I think +> +> you might want to look at +> +> http://mail.gnu.org/pipermail/gcl-devel/2002-September/001084.html +> + +Excellent! Thank you for this information. My most +recent attempt to build a Cygwin version just failed +so Mingw native Windows it is ... + +BTW, if it is true what Mike Thomas says that: "A port +to Cygwin would be trivial ...", then he's a much better +hacker than I am! + +\start +Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 12:22:05 -0500 +From: Bill Page +To: +CC: +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: GCL on Cygwin for Axiom + + +Background. + +> +> From: Bill Page +> Date: 2002/11/20 Wed AM 11:40:05 EST +> To: +> CC: , +> Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: GCL on Cygwin for Axiom +> +> Tim, +> +> Damn. I am sorry to hear that Schelter is not still +> available. I guess the Internet hasn't quite progressed to +> that stage yet... And it's a reminder to me that there is +> some urgency in this project to document Axiom and make it +> available. +> +> What I meant to write was GCL (Schelter's lisp), not GCC - +> It was late and I was frustrated. I am more awake not. +> +> Yes, GCC runs just fine on Cygwin for me but I do not have +> a running version of GCL. In comparison to CCL, GCL is a +> monster! Nearly everything I have tried to do in order to +> make a running version of GCL under cygwin has failed with +> obviously incorrect and untested code C coding. Getting +> CCL to run was a piece of cake compared to this! +> +> Does your offer to help extend to GCL? I have so many +> problems and have tried so many things that it is a bit +> hard to know where to start asking questions. But ... +> +> 1) First things: The version 2.4.1 of GCL that is in your +> CVS is a bit out of date. The current version is 2.4.3. +> And even the version of GMP (GNU math package) that is +> in 2.4.3 is quite out of date. The most recent version +> of GMP is 4.1 +> +> 2) Via the web, I found that it is known that version +> 2.4.1 of GCL is missing some critical files for the Cywin +> build, specifically 'unexnt.c'. So after several more +> failed attempts witn 2.4.1, I download 2.4.3 and tried to +> compile it. unexnt.c is there, but there are a whole host +> of other problems, many of which seem to relate to GMP. +> So I downloaded 4.1 of GMP. That built just fine on it's +> own and after some fiddling I finally got GCL to link +> with it. After alot of fixing other small things, I +> finally got to the final load step for GCL only to have +> the the loader blow up with a segment fault and stack +> dump ... jeez. +> +> 3) There is a "pre-release" version of GCL posted at the +> Savannah site which is supposed into compile into native +> Window's application with the mingw32 version of GCC. +> Perhaps that is where I will try to go next. +> +> 4) But first a few more attempts. I am in the middle of +> getting the missing unexnt.c file from the newest version +> of GCL and using it with the older version. I will let you +> know how far this one goes. +> +> Cheers, +> Bill Page. +> +> > +> > From: root +> > Date: 2002/11/20 Wed AM 07:15:24 EST +> > To: bill.page1@sympatico.ca +> > CC: schelter@mail.ma.utexas.edu, daly@idsi.net +> > Subject: Re: GCL on Cygwin for Axiom +> > +> > Bill, +> > +> > Schelter's dead. But if you do get an answer let me +> > know :-) +> > Did you want help with GCC (Gnu Compiler Collection) or +> > GCL (Gnu Common Lisp)? +> > +> > I thought you had GCC running. How can I help? +> > +> > Tim +> > +> +> _______________________________________________ +> Axiom-developer mailing list +> Axiom-developer@nongnu.org +> http://mail.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/axiom-developer +> + +> +> From: Bill Page +> Date: 2002/11/20 Wed AM 04:03:37 EST +> To: +> CC: +> Subject: GCL on Cygwin for Axiom +> +> Dr. Schelter; +> +> I am working with Tim Daly on the Axiom open source +> project. One of the tasks that I have taken on is the +> implementation of a Windows/Cygwin version of Axiom. At +> the present time it is planned that Axiom will run on +> several different Lisp platforms including GCC and the +> recently made publicly available Codemist CCL interpreter. +> +> Tim is proceeding with porting the Axiom code to the GCC +> environment under Linux but has run into a few initial +> complications with the use of CCL. I have been successful +> at building CCL under the Windows/Cygwin environment but +> am having a "devil" of a time trying to install GCC on +> this platform. I have not been able to find any +> combination of recent versions of both Cygwin and GCC +> and/or choice of options for which I can successfully +> prepare the GCC executables. +> +> I have tried my best of obtain more information about the +> available operational versions via the web, but so far I +> have not found an answer. I would very much appreciate +> your recommendations on how to approach this. I have +> heard that there is a "native" Windows version of GCC +> available which will compile under Mingw32. This version +> would likely be compatible with our goals for Axiom. +> Could you tell me who I might contact concerning the +> current status of the Mingw32 version and/or a +> Windows/Cygwin version. +> +> Thanks for your time. +> + +\start +Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 16:17:10 -0500 +From: root +To: bill.page1@sympatico.ca +CC: rubey@labri.fr, daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org, + miketh@brisbane.paradigmgeo.com +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Re: GCL on Cygwin for Axiom + +re: trivial port of gcl.... + +Not at all. Since gcl uses the native loader formats there is +always an issue of developing a loader that understand the +format for a particular platform. Bill and I struggled with +this whole issue on AIX for the RS/6000. + +\start +Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 13:09:23 -0500 +From: Bill Page +To: +CC: , +Subject: [Axiom-developer] GCL on Cygwin for Axiom + +Hello, + +I recently downloaded gcl-cvs-20021014-mingw32.zip from + ftp://ftp.gnu.org/pub/gnu/gcl/cvs/ + +I was hoping to be able to run make with this on my +Windows/Cygwin system but the only makefile I can find +is in + + gclm\lib\gcl-2.5.0\gcl-tk + +and that one does not work with the current directory +configuration. + +Could someone please point me in the correct direction +for a complete source distribution that can be built and +run under Cygwin (but not to run with the Cygwin dll - +that's another issue). + +\start +Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 16:45:25 -0500 +From: root +To: bill.page1@sympatico.ca +CC: daly@idsi.net, wfs@mail.ma.utexas.edu, axiom-developer@nongnu.org, + Camm Maguire +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Re: GCL on Cygwin for Axiom + +> Damn. I am sorry to hear that Schelter is not still +> available. I guess the Internet hasn't quite progressed to +> that stage yet... And it's a reminder to me that there is +> some urgency in this project to document Axiom and make it +> available. + +Actually Bill's death is what set me off to try to open +source Axiom. He and I worked together on AKCL (pre-GCL) +and I was impressed with him. + +As to the urgency question, yeah, I'm gettin' old and the males +in my clan die young. I'm writing as fast as I can :-) + +> What I meant to write was GCL (Schelter's lisp), not GCC - +> It was late and I was frustrated. I am more awake not. + +grin. either you used a relatively recent form of negation +(trailing not) or you had a typo and meant now. either way +it was funny. + +> Yes, GCC runs just fine on Cygwin for me but I do not have +> a running version of GCL. In comparison to CCL, GCL is a +> monster! Nearly everything I have tried to do in order to +> make a running version of GCL under cygwin has failed with +> obviously incorrect and untested code C coding. Getting CCL +> to run was a piece of cake compared to this! + +CCL is supposed to be cross-platform by design and I believe +was ported to Cygwin before. GCL is much more platform specific +and depends on the GCC environment for portability. I'll raise +the priority of getting CCL running from the Makefiles so you +can continue to contribute. + +> Does your offer to help extend to GCL? I have so many +> problems and have tried so many things that it is a bit +> hard to know where to start asking questions. But ... + +sure. I'll help any way I can. + +> 1) First things: The version 2.4.1 of GCL that is in your +> CVS is a bit out of date. The current version is 2.4.3. +> And even the version of GMP (GNU math package) that is +> in 2.4.3 is quite out of date. The most recent version +> of GMP is 4.1 + +The point of the zips directory is to keep a version that +is known to work. Things die of code-rot (that is, somebody +"upgrades" their subsystem, like C++ did, and everybody downstream +is broken). I wanted to make sure there was at least a working +version available. I'll download and test 2.4.3 before I put +it in the zips. + +As for the GMP connection you should tweak +Camm Maguire about it. + +> 2) Via the web, I found that it is known that version 2.4.1 +> of GCL is missing some critical files for the Cywin build, +> specifically 'unexnt.c'. So after several more failed +> attempts witn 2.4.1, I download 2.4.3 and tried to compile +> it. unexnt.c is there, but there are a whole host of other +> problems, many of which seem to relate to GMP. So I +> downloaded 4.1 of GMP. That built just fine on it's own +> and after some fiddling I finally got GCL to link with it. +> After alot of fixing other small things, I finally got to +> the final load step for GCL only to have the the loader +> blow up with a segment fault and stack dump ... jeez. + +Read the GMP pamphlet files. I'm sure they explain what they +are trying to do well enough to fix it :-) Methinks you're +on the foreskin of technology here. Try restoring the clean +2.4.3 version, run a make and send me the output trace. I'll +look at it and hopefuly have something insightful to say. + +> 3) There is a "pre-release" version of GCL posted at the +> Savannah site which is supposed into compile into native +> Window's application with the mingw32 version of GCC. +> Perhaps that is where I will try to go next. + +mingw32? Don't know what that is. + +> 4) But first a few more attempts. I am in the middle of +> getting the missing unexnt.c file from the newest version +> of GCL and using it with the older version. I will let you +> know how far this one goes. + +good luck. Let me know if I can help. Send console traces. +I'm pushing on the next layer of the system but I'll give +some thought to the CCL issue. + +\start +Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 09:30:04 +1000 +From: "Mike Thomas" +To: "Bill Page" , "Martin RUBEY" +Cc: , +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Re: GCL on Cygwin for Axiom + +Hi there. + +> BTW, if it is true what Mike Thomas says that: "A port +> to Cygwin would be trivial ...", then he's a much better +> hacker than I am! + +Ahhh... you'll have to be much more sophisticated than that to get me to do +the job!!! + +\start +Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 09:51:31 +1000 +From: "Mike Thomas" +To: +Cc: , +Subject: Fw: [Axiom-developer] Re: GCL on Cygwin for Axiom + +My first attempt bounced from axiom-developer even though the other went +through?? + +----- Original Message ----- +From: "Mike Thomas" +To: ; +Cc: ; ; ; + +Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 9:25 AM +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Re: GCL on Cygwin for Axiom + + +> Hi there. +> +> Below please find an attempt to discourage the development of a Cygwin +> version of GCL and in the interests of intellectual freedom, "paper +napkin" +> instructions on how to go about it if you decide to do so. +> +> > re: trivial port of gcl.... +> > +> > Not at all. Since gcl uses the native loader formats there is +> > always an issue of developing a loader that understand the +> > format for a particular platform. Bill and I struggled with +> > this whole issue on AIX for the RS/6000. +> +> +> REBUTTAL +> +> Fortunately, Cygwin and Mingw32 use the same binary format and GNU +binutils +> (modulo Cygwin Unix emulation) so as far as I know that is not a problem +> here. +> +> +> WHY NOT TO DO A GCL CYGWIN PORT +> +> I think that a Cygwin version will not buy you very much functionality and +> is likely to be slower where Unix emulation is used. You will also have +the +> usual conflicts between Cygwin application paths and Windows paths, drives +> mounted as text mode etc. +> +> More importantly, it will also be yet another branch of the code that +> someone will have to maintain and package, which is a problem as it stands +> because very few people seem to be interested in supporting GCL on +Windows. +> Note that most of the inherently difficult outstanding problems on Mingw32 +> are going to be the same on Cygwin - BFD linking comes to mind. +> +> On a final note, it might be worthwhile checking out ECL ( +> http://ww.telent.net/cliki/ECL ), which allegedly supports Cygwin. ECL +is +> very closely related to GCL/AKCL. +> +> +> HOW TO START A CYGWIN PORT OF GCL +> +> Having said that, off the top of my head here is what I believe you would +> need to do to port GCL to Cygwin: +> +> - Get the latest source from CVS (see the GCL web site +> http://savannah.gnu.org/projects/gcl/ ) +> +> - Copy the files "h/mingw.*" to "h/cygwin.*". Check that they make sense +in +> the context of Cygwin and minimise modifications until you have found a +> specific reason for doing so when trying to compile and run GCL. +> +> - Grep the source for __MINGW32__ and WIN32 and check that the code does +> what you would want then add the __CYGWIN__ macro in places where Cygwin +> specific changes are required. I have left the road open for Cygwin and +> other Windows compilers through the convention that _WIN32 denotes code +> which will work under any Windows compiler, and in other cases the +compiler +> specific macro is used. +> +> - Ensure that file opening is forced to binary mode so that when object +> loading occurs the object files are interpreted as binary rather than +> textual data (see "o/main.c": +> ... +> #ifdef _WIN32 +> _fmode = _O_BINARY; +> #endif +> ... +> ie if Cygwin doesn't support _fmode you'll have to find another way. +> +> - check that configure.in does the right thing for Cygwin. +> +> - try building and make further plans based on the outcome. +> +> +> +> Cheers and best of luck +> +> Mike Thomas. +> +> + +\start +Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 19:46:04 -0500 +From: root +To: bill.page1@sympatico.ca +Cc: daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Subject: [Axiom-developer] gcl 2.4.3 + + +Bill, + +I've checked out gcl 2.4.3 and it works. I'll be updating the +tenkan cvs with the new version shortly. + +\start +Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 20:12:16 -0500 +From: root +To: bill.page1@sympatico.ca +Cc: daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Subject: [Axiom-developer] gcl 2.4.3 + +Bill, + +Ah, I lied. I ran into the _Bool issue with 2.4.3 also. +I'll see if I can figure out a patch. +Until then lets stick with 2.4.1 + +\start +Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 20:29:59 -0500 +From: root +To: bill.page1@sympatico.ca +Cc: daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Subject: [Axiom-developer] gcl 2.4.3 + +Bill, + +I've done a small amount of checking on the GCL/Cygwin issue. +GCL looks like it knows about Cygwin. Check configure.in +and you'll see: + i*cygwin*) +on line 488. +What is the result of this test? (gcc -v | fgrep ming) + +\start +Date: 20 Nov 2002 20:30:35 -0500 +From: Camm Maguire +To: Bill Page +Cc: , , gcl-devel@gnu.org +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Re: GCL on Cygwin for Axiom + +Greetings! Allow me a futile attempt at an adequate answer on behalf +of the late Dr. Schelter: + +Shortly after Dr. Schelter died, Richard Stallman requested a +volunteer to continue maintenance of GCL. There was not much response +from the lisp community. Like many of you, I was moved by +Dr. Schelter's work, and did not want to see it rot away. RMS +encouraged me to act on this sentiment and do what I could to keep GCL +going, in spite of my then total unfamiliarity with lisp. (I have +extensive experience in C, though). So I agreed. + +We set the project up at http://savannah.gnu.org/projects/gcl, and +formed the gcl-devel@gnu.org mailing list. Over time, several +volunteers arose, bringing the current number of GCL developers to 12. +We attempted to quickly stabilize Dr. Schelter's last work with a +bug-fix only 2.4.x series, the latest of which is 2.4.3. This is +known to compile itself and maxima on linux x86 boxes and pass all +tests without error. I'm not sure about the windows status of this +release, though my understanding is that 2.4.3 produces a working +maxima under mingw as well. + +We then branched CVS into the 2.5.0 series, and have pushed forward on +several fronts. + +On the portability side, we introduced relocation code calling +routines in the bfd library. This together with extensive changes for +64 bit support, has produced a current CVS snapshot which builds a +test-passing maxima on all 11 Debian architectures (x86 ppc arm m68k +sparc mips mipsel ia64 alpha hppa s390), Windows Mingw, sparc solaris, +and (apparently) FreeBSD. + +This effort revealed several bugs in the code, the fixing of which, +coupled with a general overhaul to remove all compiler warnings, has +led to a code base which now supports full C compiler optimization on +all platforms save one, leading to a general performance increase of +some 10%. + +A major push in the direction of full ansi compliance has begun. clcs +and pcl code has been incorporated, several missing elements +(e.g. ansi loop, destructuring bind, defpackage, etc) have been added +into the core system, numerical constants are now handled correctly to +full IEEE precision, COMMON-LISP and COMMON-LISP-USER packages are +provided, and perhaps most significantly, Paul Dietz has been +developing our own ansi-test regression suite, leading to steady +progress in fixing any failures thus revealed. I'm told that we +actually do better than Allegro on Paul's tests :-). These features +are optionally enabled at compile time with --enable-ansi. + +Several extensions have been incorporated or are in the process of being +incorporated. xgcl is now included in the standard tree, the author +or pargcl has refreshed his additions, and preliminary discussion of +blas/lapack support has been positive. The ansi common lisp spec in +.texi format has also been patched for modern texinfo systems, +included in the standard tree and is now built into searchable info +files at compile time. + +On some systems, native relocation is not yet available due to +unfinished support in the bfd library. These are mips mipsel alpha +ia64 and hppa. On such systems, we've reenabled the dlopen code +options Dr. Schelter had provided, giving a GCL which can correctly +load objects, but not save them via save-system. To enable the +building of systems such as maxima on these platforms, which +frequently rely on dumping the image via save-system by default, we've +added some code to automate the approach Dr. Schelter had put together +for maxima 5.6. Briefly, one can call (compiler::link '( ) "image_name" "initialization code" "extra libs" nil) after +compilation and it 'will just work'. Maxima CVS can optionally use +this method, as well as the Debian package of acl2, both of which have +been verified. + +On Debian systems, gcl/maxima and gcl/acl2 packages now exist which +compile and pass all tests on all platforms, with the exception of a +few remaining issues with acl2, which should be resolved shortly. +Mike tells me that the latest Mingw GCL binary does likewise on +Windows. We hope to make axiom the third such example! + +As for the future, we hope to get GCL into sufficient shape one day to +submit is for consideration as the standard common lisp front end to +the gcc family of compilers. GCL may not be the most compliant, but +to my knowledge it carries the most number of open source apps to the +most number of platforms, and with generally quite good performance. + +As for libraries, both gmp and bfd can be linked in dynamically. The +former is so by default on Debian systems. This allows GCL to use the +latest lib compatible with the API of soname 3. CVS has a relatively +new gmp included for local building and static linkage as well, under +the directory gmp3. + +In sum, GCL is a work in progress. We hope it will be useful to the +lisp community. I must say that I share the sentiment you expressed +below. A lot of work has gone into intelligent lisp programming, and +it appears in danger of getting lost as the human repositories of its +knowledge go on to better things. This would be a terrible waste. It +is the hope of bringing these gems forward into the open source world +of a new generation that chiefly motivates my work on GCL. + +Take care, + + + +Bill Page writes: + +> Background. +> +> > +> > From: Bill Page +> > Date: 2002/11/20 Wed AM 11:40:05 EST +> > To: +> > CC: , +> > Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: GCL on Cygwin for Axiom +> > +> > Tim, +> > +> > Damn. I am sorry to hear that Schelter is not still +> > available. I guess the Internet hasn't quite progressed to +> > that stage yet... And it's a reminder to me that there is +> > some urgency in this project to document Axiom and make it +> > available. +> > +> > What I meant to write was GCL (Schelter's lisp), not GCC - +> > It was late and I was frustrated. I am more awake not. +> > +> > Yes, GCC runs just fine on Cygwin for me but I do not have +> > a running version of GCL. In comparison to CCL, GCL is a +> > monster! Nearly everything I have tried to do in order to +> > make a running version of GCL under cygwin has failed with +> > obviously incorrect and untested code C coding. Getting +> > CCL to run was a piece of cake compared to this! +> > +> > Does your offer to help extend to GCL? I have so many +> > problems and have tried so many things that it is a bit +> > hard to know where to start asking questions. But ... +> > +> > 1) First things: The version 2.4.1 of GCL that is in your +> > CVS is a bit out of date. The current version is 2.4.3. +> > And even the version of GMP (GNU math package) that is +> > in 2.4.3 is quite out of date. The most recent version +> > of GMP is 4.1 +> > +> > 2) Via the web, I found that it is known that version +> > 2.4.1 of GCL is missing some critical files for the Cywin +> > build, specifically 'unexnt.c'. So after several more +> > failed attempts witn 2.4.1, I download 2.4.3 and tried to +> > compile it. unexnt.c is there, but there are a whole host +> > of other problems, many of which seem to relate to GMP. +> > So I downloaded 4.1 of GMP. That built just fine on it's +> > own and after some fiddling I finally got GCL to link +> > with it. After alot of fixing other small things, I +> > finally got to the final load step for GCL only to have +> > the the loader blow up with a segment fault and stack +> > dump ... jeez. +> > +> > 3) There is a "pre-release" version of GCL posted at the +> > Savannah site which is supposed into compile into native +> > Window's application with the mingw32 version of GCC. +> > Perhaps that is where I will try to go next. +> > +> > 4) But first a few more attempts. I am in the middle of +> > getting the missing unexnt.c file from the newest version +> > of GCL and using it with the older version. I will let you +> > know how far this one goes. +> > +> > Cheers, +> > Bill Page. +> > +> > > +> > > From: root +> > > Date: 2002/11/20 Wed AM 07:15:24 EST +> > > To: bill.page1@sympatico.ca +> > > CC: schelter@mail.ma.utexas.edu, daly@idsi.net +> > > Subject: Re: GCL on Cygwin for Axiom +> > > +> > > Bill, +> > > +> > > Schelter's dead. But if you do get an answer let me +> > > know :-) +> > > Did you want help with GCC (Gnu Compiler Collection) or +> > > GCL (Gnu Common Lisp)? +> > > +> > > I thought you had GCC running. How can I help? +> > > +> > > Tim +> > > +> > +> > _______________________________________________ +> > Axiom-developer mailing list +> > Axiom-developer@nongnu.org +> > http://mail.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/axiom-developer +> > +> +> > +> > From: Bill Page +> > Date: 2002/11/20 Wed AM 04:03:37 EST +> > To: +> > CC: +> > Subject: GCL on Cygwin for Axiom +> > +> > Dr. Schelter; +> > +> > I am working with Tim Daly on the Axiom open source +> > project. One of the tasks that I have taken on is the +> > implementation of a Windows/Cygwin version of Axiom. At +> > the present time it is planned that Axiom will run on +> > several different Lisp platforms including GCC and the +> > recently made publicly available Codemist CCL interpreter. +> > +> > Tim is proceeding with porting the Axiom code to the GCC +> > environment under Linux but has run into a few initial +> > complications with the use of CCL. I have been successful +> > at building CCL under the Windows/Cygwin environment but +> > am having a "devil" of a time trying to install GCC on +> > this platform. I have not been able to find any +> > combination of recent versions of both Cygwin and GCC +> > and/or choice of options for which I can successfully +> > prepare the GCC executables. +> > +> > I have tried my best of obtain more information about the +> > available operational versions via the web, but so far I +> > have not found an answer. I would very much appreciate +> > your recommendations on how to approach this. I have +> > heard that there is a "native" Windows version of GCC +> > available which will compile under Mingw32. This version +> > would likely be compatible with our goals for Axiom. +> > Could you tell me who I might contact concerning the +> > current status of the Mingw32 version and/or a +> > Windows/Cygwin version. +> > +> > Thanks for your time. +> > + +\start +Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 20:46:30 -0500 +From: root +To: camm@enhanced.com +CC: bill.page1@sympatico.ca, axiom-developer@nongnu.org, + miketh@brisbane.paradigmgeo.com, gcl-devel@gnu.org +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Re: GCL on Cygwin for Axiom + +Ok, I'll try 2.5 and see if that builds. + +\start +Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 21:37:49 -0500 +From: root +To: camm@enhanced.com, bill.page1@sympatico.ca +CC: daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org, miketh@brisbane.paradigmgeo.com, + gcl-devel@gnu.org +Subject: [Axiom-developer] _BOOL problem in GCL 2.4.3 for GCC 2.96 + +Camm, + +This patch will fix 2.4.3 to work on all systems. +You can just save this mail file to 386-linux.defs.patch and type: + cd gcl-2.4.3/o + patch < 386-linux.defs.patch +Perhaps you could call it 2.4.4? + +The problem is the include of the file +/usr/lib/gcc-lib/i386-redhat-linux/2.96/include/stdbool.h +which typedefs bool. This causes sfasl.c to fail to compile. + +To fix the build on GCC 2.96 add the flag -D_STDBOOL_H to the +sfasl.h compile line. The correct way to do this is to apply +the attached patch file. Note that configure writes over several +files so you can't patch them directly. Under Bill's scheme you +make platform specific changes in the h/*.defs files. + +The "bug" was introduced when bfd support was added. +In this particular case the "include " also does an +"include " which typedefs bool causing the conflict. +If you read the include file you'll find that this bug +has bitten many people. There are checks in the file so that + is only included if the compiler version is 2 +and the subversion > 95. Since my RedHat 7.2 is gcc 2.95 this +works. My RedHat 7.3 is gcc 2.96 and fails. The correct fix +is NEVER to include this file as it will always cause a conflict +for GCL. The easiest way to do this is to claim that the file +has already been included. The first time it is included it +defines a flag _STDBOOL_H. So, we lie about it and always +define the flag thus avoiding the problem. + +Some day I should sign up as a GCL developer :-) + +Tim + +=================================================================== +--- 386-linux.defs Sun Feb 3 13:44:07 2002 ++++ /tmp/386-linux.defs Wed Nov 20 21:21:08 2002 +@@ -21,7 +21,7 @@ + # and also in the compiler::*cc* variable for later compilation of + # lisp files. + # (the -pipe is just since our file system is slow..) +-CC = ${GCC} -pipe -fwritable-strings -DVOL=volatile -I$(GCLDIR)/o -fsigned-char ++CC = ${GCC} -pipe -fwritable-strings -DVOL=volatile -I$(GCLDIR)/o -fsigned-char -D_STDBOOL_H + + # under redhat 6.1 and slackware 7.0 we needed to have this + # link be static, but should be ok with the fix to unixport/rsym_elf.c + +\start +Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 21:41:25 -0500 +From: root +To: camm@enhanced.com, bill.page1@sympatico.ca +CC: daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org, miketh@brisbane.paradigmgeo.com, + gcl-devel@gnu.org +Subject: [Axiom-developer] _BOOL problem in GCL 2.4.3 for GCC 2.96 (typo fix) + +Camm, I fat-fingered the last mail. The actual .defs file is in the +'h' directory, not the 'o' directory. These are the correct instructions: + + +This patch will fix 2.4.3 to work on all systems. +You can just save this mail file to 386-linux.defs.patch and type: + cd gcl-2.4.3/h + patch < 386-linux.defs.patch +Perhaps you could call it 2.4.4? + +The problem is the include of the file +/usr/lib/gcc-lib/i386-redhat-linux/2.96/include/stdbool.h +which typedefs bool. This causes sfasl.c to fail to compile. + +To fix the build on GCC 2.96 add the flag -D_STDBOOL_H to the +sfasl.h compile line. The correct way to do this is to apply +the attached patch file. Note that configure writes over several +files so you can't patch them directly. Under Bill's scheme you +make platform specific changes in the h/*.defs files. + +The "bug" was introduced when bfd support was added. +In this particular case the "include " also does an +"include " which typedefs bool causing the conflict. +If you read the include file you'll find that this bug +has bitten many people. There are checks in the file so that + is only included if the compiler version is 2 +and the subversion > 95. Since my RedHat 7.2 is gcc 2.95 this +works. My RedHat 7.3 is gcc 2.96 and fails. The correct fix +is NEVER to include this file as it will always cause a conflict +for GCL. The easiest way to do this is to claim that the file +has already been included. The first time it is included it +defines a flag _STDBOOL_H. So, we lie about it and always +define the flag thus avoiding the problem. + +Some day I should sign up as a GCL developer :-) + +Tim + +=================================================================== +--- 386-linux.defs Sun Feb 3 13:44:07 2002 ++++ /tmp/386-linux.defs Wed Nov 20 21:21:08 2002 +@@ -21,7 +21,7 @@ + # and also in the compiler::*cc* variable for later compilation of + # lisp files. + # (the -pipe is just since our file system is slow..) +-CC = ${GCC} -pipe -fwritable-strings -DVOL=volatile -I$(GCLDIR)/o -fsigned-char ++CC = ${GCC} -pipe -fwritable-strings -DVOL=volatile -I$(GCLDIR)/o -fsigned-char -D_STDBOOL_H + + # under redhat 6.1 and slackware 7.0 we needed to have this + # link be static, but should be ok with the fix to unixport/rsym_elf.c + +\start +Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 22:40:27 -0500 +From: root +To: camm@enhanced.com +CC: daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org, gcl-devel@gnu.org +Subject: [Axiom-developer] gcl 2.5 + +I'm happy to report that GCL 2.5 builds cleanly on RedHat 7.2 (gcc 2.95) +RedHat 7.3 (gcc 2.96) and RedHat 8.0 (gcc 3.2). + +Where can I find this test suite you mentioned? + +\start +Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 22:58:28 -0500 +From: root +To: camm@enhanced.com +CC: daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org, gcl-devel@gnu.org +Subject: [Axiom-developer] gcl 2.5 bug report + +gcl +>(in-package 'foo) +Error: A package error occurred on FOO: "No such package". + +This is clearly an error. Steele pg 183 says that in-package +will create a package that does not exist. pg 182 says a package +name can be a symbol or a string. + +\start +Date: 21 Nov 2002 08:09:27 -0500 +From: Camm Maguire +To: daly@idsi.net +Cc: axiom-developer@nongnu.org, gcl-devel@gnu.org +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: [Gcl-devel] gcl 2.5 + +Greetings! Great! In the subdir ansi-tests. Try this out (only when +you've configured with --enable-ansi): + +cd ansi-tests +../unixport/saved_ansi_gcl +(load "gclload.lsp") + +root writes: + +> I'm happy to report that GCL 2.5 builds cleanly on RedHat 7.2 (gcc 2.95) +> RedHat 7.3 (gcc 2.96) and RedHat 8.0 (gcc 3.2). +> +> Where can I find this test suite you mentioned? +> + +\start +Date: 21 Nov 2002 08:08:16 -0500 +From: Camm Maguire +To: daly@idsi.net +Cc: axiom-developer@nongnu.org, gcl-devel@gnu.org +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: [Gcl-devel] gcl 2.5 bug report + + +Hi Tim! The behavior you describe is CLTL1. CLTL2 and ansi say you +have to make-package first. As this change did not break our existing +'customers' maxima and acl2, we just incorporated it into the base +image. If it is a problem for you, I could escape the updated +behavior to only kick in when configuring the ansi image. Shouldn't be +too tough to add a make-package, no? + +Take care, + +root writes: + +> gcl +> >(in-package 'foo) +> Error: A package error occurred on FOO: "No such package". +> +> This is clearly an error. Steele pg 183 says that in-package +> will create a package that does not exist. pg 182 says a package +> name can be a symbol or a string. + +\start +Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 17:30:07 +0100 (MET) +From: Joris van der Hoeven +To: texmacs-dev@gnu.org +Cc: bill.page1@sympatico.ca, daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: [Texmacs-dev] Axiom and TeXmacs + +> Norman's noweb wraps code in the sequence, causing a "definition" +> <>=3D +> code +> ... +> code +> @ +> where everything outside the <<>>=3D ... @ is considered text. +> Code between the boundaries is basically a verbatim environment. +>=20 +> Code definitions are "used" by specifying: +> <> +> Notice the lack of trailing equal sign. + +Maybe we should preprocess the pamphlet file using Perl +before doing the conversion. I think that St=E9phane Payrard +might be willing to help us with that. + +> Joris, can you point me at some specific part of the TeXmacs docs +> that will help us develop a pamphlet "style" file. A style file +> that properly handle noweb vanilla output would be quite useful. + +Help -> Styles + +Unfortunately, the documentation is very incomplete, +because the support for writing style files will be much improved +at a not yet specified date... + + +\start +Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 16:11:08 -0500 +From: "Bill Page" +To: "'Joris van der Hoeven'" , + +Cc: , + +Subject: [Axiom-developer] RE: [Texmacs-dev] Axiom and TeXmacs + + +On Thursday, November 21, 2002 11:30 AM Joris van der Hoeven +TeXmacs@math.u-psud.fr wrote: + +> [Tim]=20 +> > Norman's noweb wraps code in the sequence, causing a +> > "definition" <>=3D code +> > ... +> > code +> > @ +> > where everything outside the <<>>=3D ... @ is considered +> > text. Code between the boundaries is basically a verbatim +> > environment. +> >=20 +> > Code definitions are "used" by specifying: +> > <> +> > Notice the lack of trailing equal sign. +>=20 +> Maybe we should preprocess the pamphlet file using Perl +> before doing the conversion. I think that St=E9phane +> Payrard might be willing to help us with that. +> + +If I understand you correctly, I do not think a Perl +filter is a good approach. I have nothing against Perl +as such, its just that I think the goal should be more +than loading a pamphlet file into TeXmacs in a readable +manner. + +I think there should be a new File->Import->Pamphlet +option for this case. The result of importing a pamphlet +should be a TeXmacs document with a folded structure. +The code chunks should appear folded into the document so +that when viewed or printed with a style called "weave" +for example, the result would be the same as the output +of + + noweave | latex + +A different style which displayed the contents of the +folded chunks could be used for editing. Code chunks +have to be named and will also have references to +other code chunks embedded in them. + +Perhaps it would be nicer if TeXmacs was able to +expand and collapse folds on demand. It is not really +clear to me hold folding is intended to work in TeXmacs. +I wasn't able to find any documentation about it and +my experiments with it so far have not produced a clear +picture. Perhaps it is still largely in the planning +stage?=20 + +Finally there should be an new File->Export->Tangle +menu option that would generate code and be equivalent +to + + notangle + +which expands the code chunks starting with the root +<<*>>=3D and including all the referenced code chunks +in the whole tree structure. + +We could also have a Tools->Selections->Export->Tangle +option that applies notangle starting with a selected +code chunk instead of the root. + +What do you think, Tim? +=20 +> > Joris, can you point me at some specific part of +> > the TeXmacs docs that will help us develop a pamphlet +> > "style" file. A style file that properly handle +> > noweb vanilla output would be quite useful. +>=20 +> Help -> Styles +>=20 +> Unfortunately, the documentation is very incomplete, +> because the support for writing style files will be +> much improved at a not yet specified date... +>=20 + +Perhaps it would help to be able to look at some +existing styles that do something similar to what +we want. What would you recommend? + +\start +Date: 21 Nov 2002 16:31:09 -0500 +From: Camm Maguire +To: daly@idsi.net +Cc: bill.page1@sympatico.ca, axiom-developer@nongnu.org, + miketh@brisbane.paradigmgeo.com, gcl-devel@gnu.org +In-Reply-To: root's message of "Wed, 20 Nov 2002 21:37:49 -0500" +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: [Gcl-devel] _BOOL problem in GCL 2.4.3 for GCC 2.96 + +Greetings! + +root writes: + +> Camm, +> +> This patch will fix 2.4.3 to work on all systems. +> You can just save this mail file to 386-linux.defs.patch and type: +> cd gcl-2.4.3/o +> patch < 386-linux.defs.patch +> Perhaps you could call it 2.4.4? +> +> The problem is the include of the file +> /usr/lib/gcc-lib/i386-redhat-linux/2.96/include/stdbool.h +> which typedefs bool. This causes sfasl.c to fail to compile. +> +> To fix the build on GCC 2.96 add the flag -D_STDBOOL_H to the +> sfasl.h compile line. The correct way to do this is to apply +> the attached patch file. Note that configure writes over several +> files so you can't patch them directly. Under Bill's scheme you +> make platform specific changes in the h/*.defs files. +> +> The "bug" was introduced when bfd support was added. +> In this particular case the "include " also does an +> "include " which typedefs bool causing the conflict. +> If you read the include file you'll find that this bug +> has bitten many people. There are checks in the file so that +> is only included if the compiler version is 2 +> and the subversion > 95. Since my RedHat 7.2 is gcc 2.95 this +> works. My RedHat 7.3 is gcc 2.96 and fails. The correct fix +> is NEVER to include this file as it will always cause a conflict +> for GCL. The easiest way to do this is to claim that the file +> has already been included. The first time it is included it +> defines a flag _STDBOOL_H. So, we lie about it and always +> define the flag thus avoiding the problem. +> + +Thanks for the detailed analysis! We had dealt with this in CVS with +an #undef bool in object.h, but I rather like your solution better. + +BTW, a word to the wise, gcc 2.96 is very broken, and should be +avoided at all costs. The Gcc people never released it, but the +Redhat people rushed it out as they needed some c++ stuff for a +release they could not reschedule. + +I'll try to get a 2.4.4 out this weekend, with a bool fix, and with +the version numbers correctly reported. If anyone has something else +they think should go in, please let me know by Friday evening. + +> Some day I should sign up as a GCL developer :-) +> + +Indeed!! Whenever you are free and interested ... + +Take care, + +> Tim +> +> =================================================================== +> --- 386-linux.defs Sun Feb 3 13:44:07 2002 +> +++ /tmp/386-linux.defs Wed Nov 20 21:21:08 2002 +> @@ -21,7 +21,7 @@ +> # and also in the compiler::*cc* variable for later compilation of +> # lisp files. +> # (the -pipe is just since our file system is slow..) +> -CC = ${GCC} -pipe -fwritable-strings -DVOL=volatile -I$(GCLDIR)/o -fsigned-char +> +CC = ${GCC} -pipe -fwritable-strings -DVOL=volatile -I$(GCLDIR)/o -fsigned-char -D_STDBOOL_H +> +> # under redhat 6.1 and slackware 7.0 we needed to have this +> # link be static, but should be ok with the fix to unixport/rsym_elf.c + +\start +Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 21:21:59 -0500 +From: "Bill Page" +To: +Cc: , + +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: GCL on Cygwin for Axiom + +On Wednesday, November 20, 2002 6:26 PM Mike Thomas +miketh@brisbane.paradigmgeo.com wrote: + +> ... +> Below please find an attempt to discourage the development +> of a Cygwin version of GCL and in the interests of +> intellectual freedom, "paper napkin" instructions on +> how to go about it if you decide to do so. +> ... + +Ok, I have no particularly strong reason to continue +with Cygwin. My current goal is to support the open +source version of Axiom with both Codemist CCL and GCL +on a Windows platform and I just considered Cygwin as +a logical "half-way" point. + +On Wednesday, November 20, 2002 8:31 PM Camm Maguire +camm@enhanced.com wrote: + +> ... +> On Debian systems, gcl/maxima and gcl/acl2 packages +> now exist which compile and pass all tests on all +> platforms, with the exception of a few remaining +> issues with acl2, which should be resolved shortly. +> Mike tells me that the latest Mingw GCL binary does +> likewise on Windows. We hope to make axiom the third +> such example! +> ... + +Since GCL can already be built on both Linux and Windows +(with mingw), the only problem is CCL. CCL should be +relatively easy to port, but my initial worry would +be the use of SUN rpc in CCL. I am quite sure there is +no port of this version of rpc to native Windows, is +there? I even had trouble finding one that works with +Cygwin. + +A secondary issue is that the next goal after getting +OpenAxiom to run in Windows is to provide a new GUI +frontend (to replace Techexplorer). The current plan +is to use TeXmacs. Currently TeXmacs runs only on Linux +and Cygwin (with Xfree86). Making it work under native +Windows sounds formidable and I am not sure if anyone +is seriously attempting such a port. But I suppose there +is no reason (in principle) why one could not support +TeXmacs under Cygwin with access to the Windows native +version of Axiom. The main purpose of Cygwin then would +be to provide the x-server windows environment. + +So, I am about to embark on setting up MinGW + MSYS on +my Windows system and see how far I can get with +the current Axiom build. Tim: I'll probably go for +the GCL 2.5 since that version is know to work and +modify the makefile.pamphlet files accordingly. + +\start +Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 13:54:11 +1000 +From: "Mike Thomas" +To: "Bill Page" , +Cc: , +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: [Gcl-devel] Re: GCL on Cygwin for Axiom + +Hi Bill. + +> Ok, I have no particularly strong reason to continue +> with Cygwin. My current goal is to support the open +> source version of Axiom with both Codemist CCL and GCL +> on a Windows platform and I just considered Cygwin as +> a logical "half-way" point. + +It may be worth your while to also consider CLISP and Corman Common Lisp. + +> Since GCL can already be built on both Linux and Windows +> (with mingw), the only problem is CCL. CCL should be +> relatively easy to port, but my initial worry would +> be the use of SUN rpc in CCL. I am quite sure there is +> no port of this version of rpc to native Windows, is +> there? I even had trouble finding one that works with +> Cygwin. + +http://www.plt.rwth-aachen.de/ks/english/oncrpc.html + +I once built this package with Mingw32 for the pre-agreed price of a packet +of potato chips for my youngest daughter as a result of a mialing list +discussion about open source programming. (These duly arrived by surface +mail several months later along with other yummy tidbits and a reply package +is on it's way!) + +I haven't used it as I have no interest in such things so I can't claim it +will meet your needs, but try it out. I can package and send the prebuilt +version if you wish. + +> But I suppose there +> is no reason (in principle) why one could not support +> TeXmacs under Cygwin with access to the Windows native +> version of Axiom. + +In principle (I don't know what TeXMacs is) that should be fine and is one +of the beauties of using a native Windows build of Axiom rather than getting +hooked on the Cygwin dll. + +\start +Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 10:59:24 +0000 +From: Mike Dewar +To: Bill Page +Cc: axiom-developer@nongnu.org, gcl-devel@gnu.org, + mingw-users@lists.sourceforge.net, Mike Dewar +Subject: Re: [Axiom-developer] Re: GCL on Cygwin for Axiom + +On Thu, Nov 21, 2002 at 09:21:59PM -0500, Bill Page wrote: +> Since GCL can already be built on both Linux and Windows +> (with mingw), the only problem is CCL. CCL should be +> relatively easy to port, but my initial worry would +> be the use of SUN rpc in CCL. I am quite sure there is +> no port of this version of rpc to native Windows, is +> there? I even had trouble finding one that works with +> Cygwin. +CCL should build "out pof the box" on Windows - after all we have been +shipping the Windows version of Axiom based on it for many years. The +Axiom architecture is different on Unix and Windows and the RPC +dependency you found almost certainly only exists in the Unix build. +The problem may be in generating a correct makefile - there are tools +for doing this (makebase etc) but they may need adapting to take account +of the non-standard Axiom enhancements. + +\start +Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 07:36:08 -0500 +From: Earnie Boyd +To: Bill Page +CC: axiom-developer@nongnu.org, gcl-devel@gnu.org, + mingw-users@lists.sourceforge.net +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: [Mingw-users] Re: GCL on Cygwin for Axiom + + +Bill Page wrote: +> +> A secondary issue is that the next goal after getting +> OpenAxiom to run in Windows is to provide a new GUI +> frontend (to replace Techexplorer). The current plan +> is to use TeXmacs. Currently TeXmacs runs only on Linux +> and Cygwin (with Xfree86). Making it work under native +> Windows sounds formidable and I am not sure if anyone +> is seriously attempting such a port. But I suppose there +> is no reason (in principle) why one could not support +> TeXmacs under Cygwin with access to the Windows native +> version of Axiom. The main purpose of Cygwin then would +> be to provide the x-server windows environment. +> + +For a cygwinless X11 you should check out +http://sources.redhat.com/win32-x11/ , it appears old, incomplete and +not currently being worked but ... + +\start +Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 08:05:40 -0500 +From: Earnie Boyd +To: MinGW Users +CC: Bill Page , axiom-developer@nongnu.org, + gcl-devel@gnu.org +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: [Mingw-users] Re: GCL on Cygwin for Axiom + +Earnie Boyd wrote: +> Bill Page wrote: +> +>> +>> A secondary issue is that the next goal after getting +>> OpenAxiom to run in Windows is to provide a new GUI +>> frontend (to replace Techexplorer). The current plan +>> is to use TeXmacs. Currently TeXmacs runs only on Linux +>> and Cygwin (with Xfree86). Making it work under native +>> Windows sounds formidable and I am not sure if anyone +>> is seriously attempting such a port. But I suppose there +>> is no reason (in principle) why one could not support +>> TeXmacs under Cygwin with access to the Windows native +>> version of Axiom. The main purpose of Cygwin then would +>> be to provide the x-server windows environment. +>> +> +> For a cygwinless X11 you should check out +> http://sources.redhat.com/win32-x11/ , it appears old, incomplete and +> not currently being worked but ... +> + +And this http://libw11.sourceforge.net/ which eliminates the need for an +X server. + +\start +Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 11:51:17 -0500 +From: root +To: bill.page1@sympatico.ca +CC: miked@nag.co.uk, axiom-developer@nongnu.org, gcl-devel@gnu.org, + mingw-users@lists.sourceforge.net, miked@nag.co.uk, texmacs-dev@gnu.org, + tim@tenkan.org +Subject: [Axiom-developer] many topics + +Bill, + +re: cygwin + +I'm trying to get access to a windows box so I can set up +cygwin. Damn things are pretty scarce :-) The key problem +is setting up a "compile farm" of various pieces of equipment. +If I can break free about $1000 I can stack a bunch of used +equipment in my basement and set up a local farm. I'm +deliberately maintaining 3 versions of linux (albeit all +redhat. gotta expand that too) so I can cross-build and find +bugs (like the Bool bug in GCL on RH7.3). I'll have to start +haunting Ebay to find used equipment. Christmas cometh. I'm +CERTAIN the girlfriend will appreciate her used Sun box :-) + +re: Lisp + +I downloaded CLISP last night and am downloading Corman now. Lets see +if we can find a runnable Common Lisp you can use. GCL 2.4.x should +run there in some form but I don't know how it will interact with +mingw. I've been looking at the Codemist version and find I'm going to +have to bend a few things around in the Makefiles to make it work due +to the compile-file issue. I'll make it work but it is slow going. +For portability reasons Codemist is our best bet as it uses byte-codes. +I've also discovered (as you will shortly) that GCL 2.5 is ansi-95 +compatible which means that the original source code needs +changes. For example, use-package used to create the package by +default. Now it appears that you need to call make-package first. +So to bring Axiom up to the present-day standards is going to take +me a bit more time. + +re: TeXmacs + +I know that a semi-native windows port has been high on Joris's list +for a long time so any progress there (possibly using mingw) would be +a heeuugge win. I've been too heads-down on the other issues to do +more than test it. We have to add the noweb.sty file to the list of +files that TeXmacs knows about. I want to add a bunch of Latex macros +to noweb.sty (probably forking off an Axiom.sty file that is upward +compatible) but that's an enqueued task. + +re: tenkan CVS + +I've asked for all of the developers to have write access to the CVS so +we can try coordinating things thru there. Feel free to make your own +mis...ummm, changes there and I'll adapt. Please, please try to +document everything you do even if it is a one line fix. At least +test it once and let me know if you can write to it. + +\start +Date: 22 Nov 2002 12:02:24 -0500 +From: Camm Maguire +To: daly@idsi.net +Cc: bill.page1@sympatico.ca, miked@nag.co.uk, axiom-developer@nongnu.org, + gcl-devel@gnu.org, mingw-users@lists.sourceforge.net, + texmacs-dev@gnu.org, tim@tenkan.org +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: [Gcl-devel] many topics + +Greetings! + +root writes: + +> Bill, +> +> re: cygwin +> +> I'm trying to get access to a windows box so I can set up +> cygwin. Damn things are pretty scarce :-) The key problem +> is setting up a "compile farm" of various pieces of equipment. +> If I can break free about $1000 I can stack a bunch of used +> equipment in my basement and set up a local farm. I'm +> deliberately maintaining 3 versions of linux (albeit all +> redhat. gotta expand that too) so I can cross-build and find +> bugs (like the Bool bug in GCL on RH7.3). I'll have to start +> haunting Ebay to find used equipment. Christmas cometh. I'm +> CERTAIN the girlfriend will appreciate her used Sun box :-) +> +> re: Lisp +> +> I downloaded CLISP last night and am downloading Corman now. Lets see +> if we can find a runnable Common Lisp you can use. GCL 2.4.x should +> run there in some form but I don't know how it will interact with +> mingw. I've been looking at the Codemist version and find I'm going to +> have to bend a few things around in the Makefiles to make it work due +> to the compile-file issue. I'll make it work but it is slow going. +> For portability reasons Codemist is our best bet as it uses byte-codes. +> I've also discovered (as you will shortly) that GCL 2.5 is ansi-95 +> compatible which means that the original source code needs +> changes. For example, use-package used to create the package by +> default. Now it appears that you need to call make-package first. +> So to bring Axiom up to the present-day standards is going to take +> me a bit more time. +> + +If this proves onerous, I could #ifdef in the old behavior when +configuring without --enable-ansi. But its probably a good idea for +Axiom to make this change in the long run. If you'd like me to do +this, just let me know. + +Take care, + +> re: TeXmacs +> +> I know that a semi-native windows port has been high on Joris's list +> for a long time so any progress there (possibly using mingw) would be +> a heeuugge win. I've been too heads-down on the other issues to do +> more than test it. We have to add the noweb.sty file to the list of +> files that TeXmacs knows about. I want to add a bunch of Latex macros +> to noweb.sty (probably forking off an Axiom.sty file that is upward +> compatible) but that's an enqueued task. +> +> re: tenkan CVS +> +> I've asked for all of the developers to have write access to the CVS so +> we can try coordinating things thru there. Feel free to make your own +> mis...ummm, changes there and I'll adapt. Please, please try to +> document everything you do even if it is a one line fix. At least +> test it once and let me know if you can write to it. + +\start +Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 12:23:37 -0500 +From: root +To: camm@enhanced.com +CC: daly@idsi.net, bill.page1@sympatico.ca, miked@nag.co.uk, + axiom-developer@nongnu.org, gcl-devel@gnu.org, + mingw-users@lists.sourceforge.net, texmacs-dev@gnu.org, tim@tenkan.org +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: [Gcl-devel] many topics + +re: ifdef-ing out make-package check. + +Nope, leave it in. Axiom's got to come up to standards not the other +way around. + +\start +Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 09:19:09 +0100 (MET) +From: Joris van der Hoeven +To: Bill Page +Cc: "'Joris van der Hoeven'" , texmacs-dev@gnu.org, + daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Subject: [Axiom-developer] RE: [Texmacs-dev] Axiom and TeXmacs + +> > Maybe we should preprocess the pamphlet file using Perl +> > before doing the conversion. I think that St=E9phane +> > Payrard might be willing to help us with that. +>=20 +> If I understand you correctly, I do not think a Perl +> filter is a good approach. I have nothing against Perl +> as such, its just that I think the goal should be more +> than loading a pamphlet file into TeXmacs in a readable +> manner. +>=20 +> I think there should be a new File->Import->Pamphlet +> option for this case. The result of importing a pamphlet +> should be a TeXmacs document with a folded structure. +> The code chunks should appear folded into the document so +> that when viewed or printed with a style called "weave" +> for example, the result would be the same as the output +> of +>=20 +> noweave | latex +>=20 +> A different style which displayed the contents of the +> folded chunks could be used for editing. Code chunks +> have to be named and will also have references to +> other code chunks embedded in them. + +Well, as I understand it, the pamphlet format is +a LaTeX with special escape sequences for dealing +with code or other special markup. Therefore, +I think that the best way of importing such files +is to first convert it to standard LaTeX +(with possible pamphlet-specific commands), +with a language like Perl, and next convert +the result to TeXmacs using the standard input filter. + +> Perhaps it would be nicer if TeXmacs was able to +> expand and collapse folds on demand. It is not really +> clear to me hold folding is intended to work in TeXmacs. +> I wasn't able to find any documentation about it and +> my experiments with it so far have not produced a clear +> picture. Perhaps it is still largely in the planning +> stage?=20 + +Yes, this will be dealt with sometime next year. + +> Finally there should be an new File->Export->Tangle +> menu option that would generate code and be equivalent +> to +>=20 +> notangle +>=20 +> which expands the code chunks starting with the root +> <<*>>=3D and including all the referenced code chunks +> in the whole tree structure. + +Yes, that should not be difficult. + +> We could also have a Tools->Selections->Export->Tangle +> option that applies notangle starting with a selected +> code chunk instead of the root. + +Yes, we systematically do that for all formats. + +> > > Joris, can you point me at some specific part of +> > > the TeXmacs docs that will help us develop a pamphlet +> > > "style" file. A style file that properly handle +> > > noweb vanilla output would be quite useful. +> >=20 +> > Help -> Styles +> >=20 +> > Unfortunately, the documentation is very incomplete, +> > because the support for writing style files will be +> > much improved at a not yet specified date... +>=20 +> Perhaps it would help to be able to look at some +> existing styles that do something similar to what +> we want. What would you recommend? + +I think that we first need to know what you already have. +Also: how much documentation does already exist in +the pamphlet format? + +\start +Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 08:55:50 -0500 +From: "Bill Page" +To: "'Joris van der Hoeven'" +Cc: , + , + +Subject: [Axiom-developer] RE: [Texmacs-dev] Axiom and TeXmacs + +On Saturday, November 23, 2002 3:19 AM Joris van der Hoeven +TeXmacs@math.u-psud.fr wrote: +> ... +> Well, as I understand it, the pamphlet format is +> a LaTeX with special escape sequences for dealing +> with code or other special markup. Therefore, +> I think that the best way of importing such files +> is to first convert it to standard LaTeX +> (with possible pamphlet-specific commands), +> with a language like Perl, and next convert +> the result to TeXmacs using the standard input filter. + +Yes and no. Tim, please correct me if I make a mistake +here... + +The pamphlet format is really noweb input format. As +Norman Ramsey defines it, the input to noweb is quite +language independent and very simple. noweb is a +simplified version of Knuth's web ("no" for Norman, +I guess). All we have are named "code" chunks e.g. + + <>= ... <> ... @ + +which may reference other code chunks, e.g. +<> above, embedded in a text stream. Text +areas start with @ (except first). There are two +primary operations to be done on this file. One is +"weave" which extracts just the text stream (no code) +and the other is "tangle" which expands a given code +chunk (by default starting with the root chunk <<*>>=) +by including all of the other code chunks referenced +in that chunk, recursively. It is possible to +generate different results from the same input file +by specifying a different root for tangle. + +It is true that the text stream is usually LaTex +code but I don't think that is a requirement of +noweb. The code chunks can also be in any language. + +I believe Tim Daly defined the term "pamphlet" to +refer to the noweb input files that he is using in +the open source axiom project. These will (I presume) +always have a LaTex text stream part plus code +chunks in several different languages: makefile +script, C, lisp, SPAD (axiom specific), etc. I think +Tim has in mind also using such pamphlet files to +exchange axiom code between users. + +And of course we also plan to use TeXmacs as +a front-end to axiom itself as a high level user +interface capable of entering and displaying +mathematics in a rich graphics format. + +So when importing a pamphlet file into TeXmacs, +it is desirable to interpret the text stream part +of the input file as LaTex and convert it +appropriately, but it is also important to retain +the code chunks in their place in the original +file. What I was suggesting below was that it +seemed natural to me to treat these chunks as +"folded" into the TeXmacs document. That way, +when the folds are collapsed (closed), the +document would have the appearance of LaTex applied +to the weave output and would print that way. But +one could open a folded code chunk and edit it. +The only new thing would be expanding code chunks +during a "tangle" export. This could be done +easily just by extracting all code chunks and +then calling notangle. + +> +> > Perhaps it would be nicer if TeXmacs was able to +> > expand and collapse folds on demand. It is not +> > really clear to me hold folding is intended to +> > work in TeXmacs. I wasn't able to find any +> > documentation about it and my experiments with +> > it so far have not produced a clear picture. +> > Perhaps it is still largely in the planning stage? +> +> Yes, this will be dealt with sometime next year. +> + +Would you be interested in having someone (me) help +to accelerate that schedule? Are there other people +interested in the "fold" concept? + +> > ... +> > Perhaps it would help to be able to look at some +> > existing styles that do something similar to what +> > we want. What would you recommend? +> +> I think that we first need to know what you already +> have. + +There are LaTex "styles" and TeXmacs "styles". These +are different, right? So far I think Tim has only +made use of only relatively standard LaTex style +files. + +The reason I mentioned TeXmacs styles is because +that is the only way thing that I could find at +this time that interacts with how folded text is +displayed. Perhaps that is not the way you intend +to go with folds? + +> Also: how much documentation does already exist +> in the pamphlet format? +> + +We are only at the beginning of the project. Did +you have in mind some other format? + +\start +Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 12:17:52 -0500 +From: root +To: "'Joris van der Hoeven'" +Cc: , , , + "Bill Page" , Norman Ramsey , + axiom-mail@nongnu.org, Barry Trager , + Manuel Bronstein , + William Sit +Subject: [Axiom-developer] noweb, pamphlets, and TeXmacs + +All, + +I've written some tutorial notes on the pamphlet idea to try to get +everyone at the same level of discussion. Essentially what Bill +has been pursuing is a way to integrate noweb and TeXmacs so that +we can support pamphlet file documents. As there is some confusion +about what each part is I've decided to write it out in full. +Feel free to complain about mistakes. + +Bill's ideas are essentially correct. His note is attached. + +================= +RE: NOWEB +================= + +Knuth and Dijkstra advocated literate programming to try to solve +the problem of marrying the knowledge behind a program with the +text of the program itself. Knuth wrote Web which was designed to +work with Pascal thus: + + .web formatted document + | | + | ------> tangle ----> pascal code ----> compile ---> execute + ----------> weave ----> tex format ----> latex ---> read + +As this was Pascal-specific various other language-specific versions +were generated, e.g. CWeb for C. + +Norman's innovation is that we don't need to be language specific. +With just a few additional tags above TeX we gain great power. + +Since Axiom uses many forms of code (Makefiles, C, lisp, boot, spad, etc) +this is a key idea. We need to be able to embed many things transparently. +If we remove the language-specific options and simplify things we +can reduce the problem to this: + + + .noweb formatted document + | | + | ------> notangle ----> any code ----> compile ---> execute + ----------> noweave ----> tex format ----> latex ---> read + +Norman's implementation is called noweb. In essence, a noweb document +consists of alternations of code chunks and text blocks. A code +block is marked by: + +<<(some string)>>= + + code + +@ + +Code chunks continue until encountering an @ in column 1 or another +chunk marker (the <<(some string)>>= tag). + +The trailing equal sign marks this as a "definition" of the (some +string) block. Lack of a trailing equal sign marks this as a "use" +of the (some string) block. Uses are expanded by notangle. + +Another important idea is that multiple occurences of the definition +string are concatenated into one definition thus: + +<>= + code 1 +@ +.... +<>= + code 2 +@ +.... +<> ==> expands into: + code 1 + code 2 + +We use this idea extensively in the documentation of code. + +Text blocks are all that are not code chunks. Text blocks are tex +formatted document blocks. + + +================= +RE: TEXMACS +================= + +TeXmacs is neither emacs not TeX but is an interesting cross-product +of the two ideas. Joris set out to make a useful front-end to a +computer algebra system and ended up with a generally useful tool. +It communicates with many computer algebra systems and is able to +properly format the math output in TeX style yet retain it as a +live object that can be handed back to the underlying system. In +addition, TeXmacs is able to properly format a large subset of +Tex and Latex documents. + +TeXmacs, as Bill has been pointing out, is an excellent target for +an Axiom front-end. It already can talk directly to Axiom's interpreter +and embed the output into the TeXmacs buffer. It can already display +the .tex output from noweb. + +Support for native noweb format would be most useful. The subtle +distinction that Bill was mentioning is that currently we can take +the "tex format" output and display it in TeXmacs. However, we would +like to fully support noweb as a standard format. This implies a couple +changes. + +As mentioned above noweb does: + + .noweb formatted document + | | + | ------> notangle ----> any code ----> compile ---> execute + ----------> noweave ----> tex format ----> latex ---> read + +If TeXmacs understood the noweb format fully it would need to have +the following features: + +0) The ability to recognize and format a code chunk. +1) The ability to recognize the <>=, concatenation, and <> + features of the code chunks. +2) The ability to create a "notangled" buffer from the current buffer + that would contain the formatted code. + + Ideally you could make changes in the formatted code and have the + changes reflected back into the original buffer. Some of these + changes could be problematic. + +3) The ability to create a "noweave" buffer from the current buffer + that would contain the formatted document. + + The same comment as above applies. It would take some careful + design to properly "untangle" some changes. + +4) Bill has suggested that the folding mechanism know about the code + chunks and be able to fold and unfold them. Perhaps the way to + make the "untangle" work would be to ignore the separate buffer + idea above and just use folding. I have no opinion about either + path yet. + + It is very important that NO changes occur in the code chunks. + If TeXmacs or noweb or any other tool does not understand the + format it must maintain "transparency". That is, it must NOT + try to format things in the code chunks. Other tools have special + needs (e.g. Makefiles care about tabs) and you can't change + the code chunks because they will be output to other tools. + +5) There are other ideas, not yet exposed, that it would be nice to + have supported. I guess I need to talk more about the pamphlet + idea in depth. + + +================= +RE: PAMPHLET FILES AND THE PRESENT +================= + +Pamphlet files are now the native format for code and documentation. +There are no longer any Makefile, C, lisp, boot or spad files in the +system. All file formats have been subsumed into pamphlet files. + +Currently .pamphlet documents, except for a recent patch, are +normal .noweb formatted documents. They have very little structure +at the moment. + +Here is the way things currently interact: + + .pamphlet formatted document + | | + | ------> notangle ----> any code ----> compile ---> execute + ----------> noweave ----> tex format ----> latex ---> read + +Pamphlet files are currently being used to document the internals +of Axiom. A file written originally in Boot is now written as a +pamphlet file. The pamphlet file is expanded and the rest of the +compile process takes place thus: + +Originally: + + foo.boot -> (translate) -> foo.lisp -> (compile) -> foo.o (load) ..... + +Now: + + foo.pamphlet + | | + | -> notangle -> foo.boot -> (translate) .... + -----> noweave -> foo.tex -> latex -> read + + +================= +RE: PAMPHLET FILES AND THE FUTURE +================= + +However, pamphlet files have a larger purpose besides documenting +internals of the system. Axiom has a large amount of algebra code +written in SPAD, a high level language. Much of the research behind +this code is hidden away in libraries. I'm hoping to use literate +programming to join these two threads, the theory and the implementation, +into a unified whole and then expand it beyond a simple join. + +The end vision of using literate programming in Axiom is that you can +receive a "Booklet" which gives the theory and implementation of some +area of math, say linear algebra. The "Booklet" is composed of +"pamphlets" (not the same concept as a chapter but that's close +enough). + +Suppose you have an Axiom system. If you receive a Booklet you can +"drag and drop" the Booklet onto the system. It decomposes the Booklet +into Pamphlets, follows the references to pick up required pamphlets, +compiles the code, expands the user documentation into the proper +format, sets up example files for use, runs test cases to ensure that +functions work, adds the documentation to the theory tree, and washes +the dirty dishes. + +Booklet format or Pamphlet format would be the standard format +for submission to an "Axiom Journal". This journal would allow +people to test code that was submitted with the theory. After all, +we expect Physics and Chemistry experiments to be reproduced and +validated; why not Computational Mathematics? + +Booklets can be composed from a running system in (at least) two +directions. + +First, you compose a set of Pamphlet files "across the system" so that +you could document, say, all of the matrix facilities currently +available. + +Second, you compose a set of Pamphlet files "thru the system" so that +you could document, say, the integration mechanism from the top level +function all the way to the implementation details. + +Thus you can insert and extract Booklets with Axiom making it easier +to share knowledge. + +Future: + + Linear Algebra Booklet + | + |-> NullSpace.pamphlet + | | | | + | | | -> notangle -> nullspace.spad -> + | | -----> noweave -> nullspace.tex -> latex -> read + | |--------> dereference -> load and use other code.spad -> + | |--------> userdocs -> update Axioms user documentation + | |--------> testcase -> run test cases + | |--------> examples -> input files + | |--------> textbook -> update Axiom's current textbook + | |--------> proofs -> ACL2, MetaPRL files + |-> Pivots.pamphlet + ...... + +Huge dream, I realize, but except for the dishes, I see no technical +reason why it can't be done. + +This implies, of course, that Pamphlets can be decomposed into a +finer level of detail which is still under development. + +================= +RE: PAMPHLET FILES AND THE NEAR TERM +================= + +All of which implies a huge amount of work. It would be great +to have a front-end that supported both the current and future +directions. + +RE: NOWEB CHANGES + +Currently noweb needs to expand the chunk definition syntax +to handle some more general scheme such as a URL. We need to +be able to extract code chunks from other pamphlets so that +you can have the following situation: + +pamphlet A: (the definition document) + ... + <>= + ... + +pamphlet B: (the using document) + ... + <> + ... + +It would be useful if this could happen for text blocks also +so that generally useful descriptions could be inserted into +multiple pamphlets. Since the text blocks currently have +no label this becomes problematic. We need to develop text +labels so we can follow a uniform scheme. Multiple text blocks +containing essentially the same information already exist in +the system. This needs to be fixed. + +For larger references (e.g. whole pamphlets) I'm currently +using the bibliography environment. However, I plan to have +a new Latex tag, say PAMPHLETREFS, that have a bibtex-like +reference set. Tags in this environment point to other +pamphlet files. Perhaps the "URL syntax" proposed above +could use the \PCITE{} tag instead: + +pamphlet A: (the definition document) + ... + <>= + ... + +pamphlet B: (the using document) + ... + <<\pcite{3}{foo}>> + ... + + +Anybody who understands bibtex and would like +to take a shot at this is welcome. + +RE: TEXMACS CHANGES + +Currently TeXmacs could take the following steps, probably as +a joint effort, to support Axiom: + +1) Recognize noweb format +2) Integrate commands to notangle and noweave +3) Possibly either support + a) folding out code + b) notangle, noweave to "dependent" buffers + c) backport changes to "dependent" buffers to the original document + d) possibly all of the above +4) Integrate noweb.sty + Eventually this will evolve into Axiom.sty as we need to add + more latex macros, like \begin{theorem}, \begin{userdoc}, + \begin{pamphletrefs}, etc + +Perhaps we can lay out a more detailed plan that includes various +steps we can all work on. + +I'm willing to help with any steps taken in this direction. +Feedback is welcome. + +Tim + + + +------------------------- forwarded note --------------------------- +On Saturday, November 23, 2002 3:19 AM Joris van der Hoeven +TeXmacs@math.u-psud.fr wrote: +> ... +> Well, as I understand it, the pamphlet format is +> a LaTeX with special escape sequences for dealing +> with code or other special markup. Therefore, +> I think that the best way of importing such files +> is to first convert it to standard LaTeX +> (with possible pamphlet-specific commands), +> with a language like Perl, and next convert +> the result to TeXmacs using the standard input filter. + +Yes and no. Tim, please correct me if I make a mistake +here... + +The pamphlet format is really noweb input format. As +Norman Ramsey defines it, the input to noweb is quite +language independent and very simple. noweb is a +simplified version of Knuth's web ("no" for Norman, +I guess). All we have are named "code" chunks e.g. + + <>= ... <> ... @ + +which may reference other code chunks, e.g. +<> above, embedded in a text stream. Text +areas start with @ (except first). There are two +primary operations to be done on this file. One is +"weave" which extracts just the text stream (no code) +and the other is "tangle" which expands a given code +chunk (by default starting with the root chunk <<*>>=) +by including all of the other code chunks referenced +in that chunk, recursively. It is possible to +generate different results from the same input file +by specifying a different root for tangle. + +It is true that the text stream is usually LaTex +code but I don't think that is a requirement of +noweb. The code chunks can also be in any language. + +I believe Tim Daly defined the term "pamphlet" to +refer to the noweb input files that he is using in +the open source axiom project. These will (I presume) +always have a LaTex text stream part plus code +chunks in several different languages: makefile +script, C, lisp, SPAD (axiom specific), etc. I think +Tim has in mind also using such pamphlet files to +exchange axiom code between users. + +And of course we also plan to use TeXmacs as +a front-end to axiom itself as a high level user +interface capable of entering and displaying +mathematics in a rich graphics format. + +So when importing a pamphlet file into TeXmacs, +it is desirable to interpret the text stream part +of the input file as LaTex and convert it +appropriately, but it is also important to retain +the code chunks in their place in the original +file. What I was suggesting below was that it +seemed natural to me to treat these chunks as +"folded" into the TeXmacs document. That way, +when the folds are collapsed (closed), the +document would have the appearance of LaTex applied +to the weave output and would print that way. But +one could open a folded code chunk and edit it. +The only new thing would be expanding code chunks +during a "tangle" export. This could be done +easily just by extracting all code chunks and +then calling notangle. + +> +> > Perhaps it would be nicer if TeXmacs was able to +> > expand and collapse folds on demand. It is not +> > really clear to me hold folding is intended to +> > work in TeXmacs. I wasn't able to find any +> > documentation about it and my experiments with +> > it so far have not produced a clear picture. +> > Perhaps it is still largely in the planning stage? +> +> Yes, this will be dealt with sometime next year. +> + +Would you be interested in having someone (me) help +to accelerate that schedule? Are there other people +interested in the "fold" concept? + +> > ... +> > Perhaps it would help to be able to look at some +> > existing styles that do something similar to what +> > we want. What would you recommend? +> +> I think that we first need to know what you already +> have. + +There are LaTex "styles" and TeXmacs "styles". These +are different, right? So far I think Tim has only +made use of only relatively standard LaTex style +files. + +The reason I mentioned TeXmacs styles is because +that is the only way thing that I could find at +this time that interacts with how folded text is +displayed. Perhaps that is not the way you intend +to go with folds? + +> Also: how much documentation does already exist +> in the pamphlet format? +> + +We are only at the beginning of the project. Did +you have in mind some other format? + +\start +Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 14:05:01 -0500 +From: "Bill Page" +To: , + "'Joris van der Hoeven'" +Cc: , + , + "'Norman Ramsey'" , + , + "'Barry Trager'" , + "'Manuel Bronstein'" , + "'William Sit'" +Subject: [Axiom-developer] RE: noweb, pamphlets, and TeXmacs + +Tim, + +Thanks for the treatise on noweb etc. + +On Saturday, November 23, 2002 12:18 PM +daly@idsi.net wrote: + +>... +> RE: NOWEB CHANGES +> +> Currently noweb needs to expand the chunk definition syntax +> to handle some more general scheme such as a URL. We need to +> be able to extract code chunks from other pamphlets so that +> you can have the following situation: +> +> pamphlet A: (the definition document) +> ... +> <>= +> ... +> +> pamphlet B: (the using document) +> ... +> <> +> ... +> + +Sounds cool to me! Hypercode - perhaps the ultimate form +of open source. Maybe someone's thought of this before? + +I especially like the idea of using code that is contained +within its own (presumably complete) documentation. + +> It would be useful if this could happen for text blocks +> also so that generally useful descriptions could be +> inserted into multiple pamphlets. Since the text blocks +> currently have no label this becomes problematic. We need +> to develop text labels so we can follow a uniform scheme. +> Multiple text blocks containing essentially the same +> information already exist in the system. This needs to be +> fixed. +> + +Why not just forget what is now the text part and +simply have at least two pre-defined roots, one +for code and one for documentation? Then tangle does +both jobs. + +\start +Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 01:51:45 -0500 +From: William Sit +To: daly@idsi.net +CC: 'Joris van der Hoeven' , + texmacs-dev@gnu.org, axiom-developer@nongnu.org, + Bill Page , + Norman Ramsey , axiom-mail@nongnu.org, + Barry Trager , + Manuel Bronstein +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: noweb, pamphlets, and TeXmacs + +Just a simple comment on: + +> Currently noweb needs to expand the chunk definition syntax +> to handle some more general scheme such as a URL. + +I object to allowing URL in the pamphlet document, the reason being that +pamplet is designed to be "self-contained" (as much as possible). A URL +is unfortunately not something permanent and the link therefore can +frequently be broken. Unless there is some mechanism to ensure that all +URL are valid and updated, it would not be useful. An example: authors +post preprints to the web. Perhaps because of copyright, the preprints +are withdrawn after publication. The URL pointing to the preprint no +longer works, and no new one can be substituted (even pointing to the +journal does not assure availability because of subscription; pointing +to an archive may violate copyright). + + The trouble is that there is no mechanism for the author of the +pamphlet who cited the URL to be aware or notified when the URL fails +(which may happen years afterwards when someone try that link). If the +goal is to preserve documentation and readability "for eternity", this +would not be acceptable. + + Ideally, it seems we are planning to build Axiom into a mathematical +encyclopedia for symbolic computation, and so references should be as +internal as possible. Of course, we cannot achieve this until "steady +state" occurs, but if this dilemma is not considered and resolved now, +the goal could never be reached. + + The same consideration would require that the Axiom system be always +backward compatible when the language grows to incorporate new +technologies; and if not, there should be automatic translations to +update all existing pamphlets. + +\start +Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 09:56:26 -0500 +From: root +To: wyscc@cunyvm.cuny.edu +CC: daly@idsi.net, TeXmacs@math.u-psud.fr, texmacs-dev@gnu.org, + axiom-developer@nongnu.org, bill.page1@sympatico.ca, nr@eecs.harvard.edu, + axiom-mail@nongnu.org, bmt@us.ibm.com, Manuel.Bronstein@sophia.inria.fr +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: noweb, pamphlets, and TeXmacs + +Bill, + +The URLs are all assumed to be internal, hence the pamphlet: +prefix. I only wanted to steal the syntax since parsers are +available and the syntax is already defined. Nothing about +Axiom is intended to point elsewhere. + +The key issue is that I'd like to share code chunks and text blocks +between pamphlets. I can do this with \include tex macros but the +macros do not know the pamphlet file format. URLs (PRLs? Pamphlet +resource locators?) + +Consider the issue of describing the way your code makes novel use +of some routine out of another document, say DHMATRIX.spad.pamphlet. +Rather than either copying the code or including a makefile +that will build both documents and strip the code block (both +solutions work) you could just <>. + +You do make a good point that this technology cries for abuse. +Perhaps a new syntax and working could correct that. + +\start +Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 16:36:16 +0100 (CET) +From: Bertfried Fauser +To: axiom-developer@nongnu.org +cc: axiom-mail@nongnu.org +Subject: [Axiom-developer] axiom mailing lists + + +Dear All, + + I follow with great interest and emphasis the mails in the +axiom-mail and axiom-developer mailing lists. However, if you dump all +messages into both lists, one gets really spamed by copies of identical +mails. + + I would also appreciate if replies would contain only those parts +of the original message which are relavant, e.g. the very helpfull and +nice desciption of the pamphlet format was received some 4 to 5 times, and +in such long mail replies its very cumbersome to scan the whole several +kB long mail if reasonable further comments supplied. + + Sorry if this is mail, comming from an inactive listener to the +lists, is considered unpolite, I would appologize for that. + +\start +Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 10:39:18 -0500 +From: root +To: wyscc@cunyvm.cuny.edu +CC: daly@idsi.net, TeXmacs@math.u-psud.fr, texmacs-dev@gnu.org, + axiom-developer@nongnu.org, bill.page1@sympatico.ca, nr@eecs.harvard.edu, + axiom-mail@nongnu.org, bmt@us.ibm.com, Manuel.Bronstein@sophia.inria.fr +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: noweb, pamphlets, and TeXmacs + +Bill, + +About PRLs (Pamphlet URLs)... + +The key reason, which didn't leap to mind this morning, is that +they are the enabling technology behind "Booklets". The Booklet +is intended to collect Pamphlets into a joined form. However, +for purposes of a readable exposition, it will almost certainly +be necessary to quote sections of the Pamphlets "out of order". + +Consider what happens when you try to explain all of the matrix +facilities, which are individually described in Pamphlets, as one +Booklet. Clearly one could use the "Big Staple" approach and just +concatenate them. However, it would be better if the Booklet were +more organized. Booklets need to quote portions of the Pamphlets. +You could clearly do this by copying but it would be better to +use <> style references. + +\start +Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 17:07:01 +0100 (MET) +From: Joris van der Hoeven +To: Bill Page +Cc: "'Joris van der Hoeven'" , texmacs-dev@gnu.org, + daly@idsi.net, axiom-developer@nongnu.org +Subject: [Axiom-developer] RE: [Texmacs-dev] Axiom and TeXmacs + + +> > Also: how much documentation does already exist +> > in the pamphlet format? +> +> We are only at the beginning of the project. Did +> you have in mind some other format? + +I would advocate using the TeXmacs format in that case, +so that we won't have to write specialized converters, +and maintain them for every change in the format. + +Operations on pamphlet documents like extraction of +the code or the documentation may be seen as particular +instances of operations on structured documents. +In other words, operations like "tangle" might be +written directly in scheme (so that they can be invoked +using a shell/scheme script). + +Notice that we have started to adopt a similar strategy +for the online documentation of TeXmacs: documentation +is subdivided in small entities which can be treated +independently (maintainance, translations, etc.). +We next provide markup and programs to reconstitute +complete documentation (like a full manual) from these pages. + +This process is still at a very early stage and we plan to improve it +slowly but steadily. In the future, we plan for instance to add better +tools for cross-citation, automatic searching, several possible views +of documentation, folding, etc. We also plan to enhance the tools for +writing documentation: specialized menus, collective authoring via +the web, and so on. + +\start +Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 18:17:25 +0100 (MET) +From: Joris van der Hoeven +To: root +Cc: "'Joris van der Hoeven'" , texmacs-dev@gnu.org, + axiom-developer@nongnu.org, Bill Page , + Norman Ramsey , axiom-mail@nongnu.org, + Barry Trager , + Manuel Bronstein , + William Sit +Subject: [Axiom-developer] Re: noweb, pamphlets, and TeXmacs + +Thanks for the detailed tutorial, Tim. + +> Knuth and Dijkstra advocated literate programming to try to solve +> the problem of marrying the knowledge behind a program with the +> text of the program itself. Knuth wrote Web which was designed to +> work with Pascal thus: +> +> .web formatted document +> | | +> | ------> tangle ----> pascal code ----> compile ---> execute +> ----------> weave ----> tex format ----> latex ---> read +> +> As this was Pascal-specific various other language-specific versions +> were generated, e.g. CWeb for C. +> +> Norman's innovation is that we don't need to be language specific. +> With just a few additional tags above TeX we gain great power. + +I also would like to stress that 1) there is no reason to stick to +only two possible ways of extraction (tangle and weave) and +2) that the language independence might also hold for weave. + +> In addition, TeXmacs is able to properly format a large subset of +> Tex and Latex documents. + +Notice that TeXmacs is not just capable to properly format a large +subset of TeX/LaTeX, but that it also provides markup which is not +available in TeX/LaTeX (hyperlinks, actions, simple folding, etc.). +What is more, like in TeX/LaTeX, you may define your own markup, +and, like in Emacs, construct special editing modes for editing +such markup. This may apply in particular to things like customized +ways of folding, direct execution of an Axiom example from +the documentation, etc. + +> 0) The ability to recognize and format a code chunk. +> 1) The ability to recognize the <>=, concatenation, and <> +> features of the code chunks. + +All you have to do is to add a special tag like "chunk" +with one or more arguments. A preprocessor might then rewrite +your <>= syntax into more standard LaTeX like +\begin{chunk}{...} ... \end{chunk} and then use +the standard input filter. + +However, as I pointed out before, it might be better to directly +use the TeXmacs format with additional tags and write the operations +like tangle and weave in Scheme. + +> 2) The ability to create a "notangled" buffer from the current buffer +> that would contain the formatted code. +> +> Ideally you could make changes in the formatted code and have the +> changes reflected back into the original buffer. Some of these +> changes could be problematic. + +I rather see this as having several possible ways of looking at +pamphlet documents. Also, David Allouche will be working next year on +a way to perform operations